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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 6:34:25 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I noticed that whomever wrote this article talked about harassment of this kid, and included that he no longer had a home to go to. Did his parents kick him out for his stance? If he is 18 they had every right to do so. They pay the mortgage, right? If he is an adult, they have the right to tell him to get lost for any reason they like, including the fact that he does not share their beliefs.

I do not see the above as oppression of his first amendment rights. Perhaps I am missing something here.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Brain)

Post #: 21

RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 7:11:00 PM

kdsub

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It does to me...does the school have the right to censor a students free speech? Was she speaking for the school or for herself? If she was speaking as a valedictorian for instance could she not say what she pleases? There is nothing in the Constitution that says a private citizen cannot talk about religion in a public setting...Or is free speech only what you want to hear.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/26/2011 7:12:12 PM >

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 7:49:35 PM

Brain

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Eviction of Damon Fowler: Why it's illegal (self.atheism)
submitted 4 days ago by radeky

Since I assume this information will be lost in the other thread, here's one for it.

NOTE: NOT A LAWYER Just a guy who's been on both sides of the Landlord/Tenant Law

Generally speaking, you cannot kick someone out to the street with no notice. I'm having a hard time finding anything specific relating to family members, but my understanding from other states is if there is an adult living in your house, and they've established residence there, you must evict them just as you would a tenant. If they're not paying rent/don't have a lease, you can generally evict without a court order, but you STILL have to give notice.

Here's what I've found regarding Louisiana Eviction so far: *If you rent by the month and do not have an agreement as to how long your rental will last, you are a "month-to-month" tenant.

If you are a month-to-month tenant, your landlord can evict you for "no cause" or reason. But the landlord must give you 10 days' notice in writing before the end of the current rental period. If the landlord does not give you the right notice, the judge should order the landlord to start the eviction process over - usually for the next month. Defenses to these 10 day "no cause" evictions are limited.

If you do something to break your agreement, like not paying your rent, your landlord can generally evict you on 5 days' notice.* RentLaw.com

Specific Article regarding Eviction Notice in LA for "Occupant other than Tenant": LA CCP 4702

Now, in some states, it is required, if you call the police, they must re-admit you back to the property. Aka, restore it back to your possession.

However, I cannot guarantee that'll work in this situation for a number of reasons.

• 1) I cannot find a specific law regarding wrongful eviction because the LA law search SUCKS Search here Note.. relevant law I've found so far is under "CCP"

• 2) He was living with his parents, and not paying rent. Not paying rent doesn't matter. But living with your "landlords" can. Now, looking at the law it appears that he still needs to receive a 5 day notice.

• 3) I believe he lives in a relatively small town, and there is a chance the cops would be dicks, if they even showed.

Edit: If he's still a minor and not emancipated, then he'll almost definitely be let back in by the police, as that crosses the line into child endangerment/neglect.

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/hh3o2/eviction_of_damon_fowler_why_its_illegal/

3) Fowler has been physically threatened. Students have threatened to "jump him" at graduation practice, and he has received multiple threats of bodily harm, and even death threats.
Enough said.

4) Fowler's parents have cut off his financial support, kicked him out of the house, and thrown his belongings onto the porch.

Let's be very, very clear about this one. At a time when their son was being bullied, threatened, publicly pilloried, and ostracized from his school and his community, his parents joined the party. Their initial response was to hold him in their house against his will, take his cell phone and cut off his contact with the outside world, and even cut him off from contact with his older brother, Jerrett. Their more recent response has been to cut off financial support, kick him out of the house, and throw his belongings onto the porch.

My graduation from high school is this Friday. I live in the Bible Belt of the United States. The school was going to perform a prayer at graduation, but due to me sending the superintendent an email stating it was against Louisiana state law and that I would be forced to contact the ACLU if they ignored me, they ceased it. The school backed down, but that's when the sh**storm rolled in. Everyone is trying to get it back in the ceremony now. I'm not worried about it, but everyone hates me... kind of worried about attending graduation now. It's attracted more hostility than I thought.
My reasoning behind it is that it's emotionally stressing on anyone who isn't Christian. No one else wanted to stand up for their constitutional right of having freedom of and FROM religion. I was also hoping to encourage other atheists to come out and be heard. I'm one of maybe three atheists in this town that I currently know of. One of the others is afraid to come out of the (atheist) closet.
Though I've caused my classmates to hate me, I feel like I've done the right thing.

Thursday night was Damon Fowler's Senior Class Night, an official school activity that functions as a graduation rehersal and senior class awards assembly. At the assembly a student apparently mocked Fowler, and all freethinkers, by offering a rather lengthy, Christian prayer. A secret video was taken of the event, and the activity is disturbing.

One blogger writes:
This girl used prayer as a weapon to separate the Good Christians from The Others. To alienate. To shun. To mock. And even more disgustingly, the community cheers along like a pack of warriors who have defeated their enemy, and laugh condescendingly at the mention of a moment of silence.
Yet even though Damon faces open hostility at home in Bastrop, he nevertheless enjoys a great deal of support. Freedom From Religion Foundation has already offered Damon a $1,000 student activist award for his courage, and the Friendly Atheist has started a scholarship fund for Damon.

http://www.examiner.com/humanist-in-national/young-atheist-hero-objects-to-graduation-prayer-small-louisiana-town

Bastrop High School Prayer in Spite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaD8iQFaw7I&feature=youtube_gdata_player

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I noticed that whomever wrote this article talked about harassment of this kid, and included that he no longer had a home to go to. Did his parents kick him out for his stance? If he is 18 they had every right to do so. They pay the mortgage, right? If he is an adult, they have the right to tell him to get lost for any reason they like, including the fact that he does not share their beliefs.

I do not see the above as oppression of his first amendment rights. Perhaps I am missing something here.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 23

RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 7:56:41 PM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

The law say's freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion, if he doesn't want to hear prayers, he should stay the fuck home, and stop being a whiny douchebag.

Means the same thing dopie.

The operative word is freedom.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/26/2011 7:59:06 PM >

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Post #: 24

RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 8:14:29 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Hmmmm, you are assuming they gave him no notice.

I know in my state, if a young adult is disturbing the family life they can be kicked out. In other words, fighting with family, breaking things, basically, being a jerk... you can kick them out.

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Post #: 25

RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 8:15:33 PM

tazzygirl

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According to an interview with him and his brother, Damon is living with his sister in Dallas... so he is not homeless.

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Post #: 26

RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 8:18:43 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

According to an interview with him and his brother, Damon is living with his sister in Dallas... so he is not homeless.

I have a real problem presenting this as his parents kicking him out is a violation of his rights. I do not think we have the right to parental support after we turn 18, especially if we are making home life hard for others.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 27

RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 8:37:37 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

According to an interview with him and his brother, Damon is living with his sister in Dallas... so he is not homeless.

I have a real problem presenting this as his parents kicking him out is a violation of his rights. I do not think we have the right to parental support after we turn 18, especially if we are making home life hard for others.

After the age of 18, parental support is no longer required. Everyone is complaining that his rights were violated. Yet, they seem to forget the parents were within their legal rights to set him out.

As much as that may seem distasteful, it is legal.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 28

RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 9:02:17 PM

juliaoceania

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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

After the age of 18, parental support is no longer required. Everyone is complaining that his rights were violated. Yet, they seem to forget the parents were within their legal rights to set him out.

As much as that may seem distasteful, it is legal.

There would be no way I would do it, but I acknowledge their right to.

To be fair, we do not know what he was like at home, either

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 29

RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 9:21:29 PM

WyldHrt

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I can't say for sure that this is accurate, but per this article:
http://politics.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474979350184
the kid isn't 18 yet.

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Post #: 30

RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 10:53:59 PM

tazzygirl

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Its the only article that states his age. There has been no mention of charges against his parents. His facebook page doesnt list his year of birth, just that he was born Jan 27.

I find it odd only one mentions he is a minor.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to WyldHrt)

Post #: 31

RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/26/2011 11:38:59 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

if he doesn't want to hear prayers, he should stay the fuck home, and stop being a whiny douchebag.

The question that arises then is, what prayers?

The article Brain cited contains some interesting links. One of them relates the experience of a self-proclaimed evangelical Christian who attended a HS football game in Wahiawa, on Oahu. Wahiawa's population is mostly Buddhist, of Asian ancestry, and the invocation at the game was delivered by a Buddhist priest.

What to do? To continue to stand and observe this prayer would represent a betrayal of our own faith... To sit would be an act of extreme rudeness and disrespect... I am a professional, educated and responsible man who is strong in his faith and is quite comfortable debating the social and political issues of the day. Yet when placed in a setting where the majority culture proved hostile to my faith and beliefs, I became paralyzed with indecision...

We [Christians] often advocate the practice of Judeo-Christian rituals in America's public schools by hiding behind the excuse that they are voluntary and any student who doesn't wish to participate can simply remained seated and silent. Oh that this were true. But if I, as a mature adult, would be so confounded and uncomfortable when faced with the decision of observing and standing on my own religious principals or run the risk of offending the majority crowd, I can only imagine what thoughts and confusion must run through the head of the typical child or teenager, for whom peer acceptance is one of the highest ideals.

I would say in love to my Christian brothers and sisters, before you yearn for the imposition of prayer and similar rituals in your public schools, you might consider attending a football game at Wahiawa High School. Because unless you're ready to endure the unwilling exposure of yourself and your children to those beliefs and practices that your own faith forswears, you have no right to insist that others sit in silence and complicity while you do the same to them.

I've often wondered if there might be some kind of neutral invocation. "May providence guide our deliberations this day," or "protect our players from injury," to suit the occasion. Providence, it seemed to me, could be interpreted, as you prefer, to refer to God, Nature, or just good old Lady Luck. In other words, something that would stand more as an expression of our common wish for a good outcome than as a literal invocation of some supernatural power (specified or not).

But I don't know. The dictionary definition of providence doesn't seem sufficiently forgiving to make even that one fly. And frankly, somehow I doubt there is anything that someone wouldn't have grounds to find fault with.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/26/2011 11:49:18 PM >

(in reply to subrob1967)

Post #: 32

RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/27/2011 1:15:24 AM

WyldHrt

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quote:

Its the only article that states his age. There has been no mention of charges against his parents. His facebook page doesnt list his year of birth, just that he was born Jan 27.

I find it odd only one mentions he is a minor.

As I said, I do not know if the link is accurate, but it was the only reference to his age that I could find.

That said, I find it odd that he was/is supposedly 'forbidden' by his parents to speak to his brother. His brother is an adult, and he (adult or not) has been kicked out of their home, so where do the parents get off forbidding him to do anything?

< Message edited by WyldHrt -- 5/27/2011 1:16:17 AM >

_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
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Subby Mafia, VAA Posse & Team Troll!

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Post #: 33

RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/27/2011 1:17:27 AM

farglebargle

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I find it funny, that Christians, who are all damned for their blasphemous idolatry in violation of the Third Commandment get so bent out of shape about religion.

Here's a hint. There are no sequels to the Old Testament, whether you call it the "New Testament", "The Book of Mormon" or "The Koran"

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

See all them Crucifixes with Jesus hanging from them. Those are idols.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

Y'all kneel in front of that cross?

AND....

And if they're real Christians, then they should obey 1 Timothy 2:12, why are they permitting a woman to address men?

"12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[a] she must be quiet. "

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 5/27/2011 1:23:02 AM >

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/27/2011 4:54:03 AM

tazzygirl

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

Its the only article that states his age. There has been no mention of charges against his parents. His facebook page doesnt list his year of birth, just that he was born Jan 27.

I find it odd only one mentions he is a minor.

As I said, I do not know if the link is accurate, but it was the only reference to his age that I could find.

That said, I find it odd that he was/is supposedly 'forbidden' by his parents to speak to his brother. His brother is an adult, and he (adult or not) has been kicked out of their home, so where do the parents get off forbidding him to do anything?

The older son, from an interview I read, said he broke down and told his mom that he was agnostic. Parents decided that was a bad influence on Damon, who recently admitted to his parents he was atheist.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to WyldHrt)

Post #: 35

RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/27/2011 6:03:13 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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The separation of Church and State in the US is a flimsy barrier, at best. Almost half of the states still have Blue Laws on the books, banning everything from hunting, horse racing, to alcohol and car sales on Sunday. Some states ban certain types of work, others make it mandatory to pay time and a half for anyone working on Sunday. My own state of Indiana bars alcohol sales on Christmas. Others include Thanksgiving Day and Memorial Day in that no alcohol sales restriction.

In other words, separation of Church and State looks good on paper, in reality, "that dog won't hunt," at least, it won't hunt on Sundays.

From wiki:

The Supreme Court of the United States held in its landmark case, McGowan v. Maryland (1961), that Maryland's blue laws violated neither the Free Exercise Clause nor the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. It approved the state's blue law restricting commercial activities on Sunday, noting that while such laws originated to encourage attendance at Christian churches, the contemporary Maryland laws were intended to serve "to provide a uniform day of rest for all citizens" on a secular basis and to promote the secular values of "health, safety, recreation, and general well-being" through a common day of rest. That this day coincides with Christian Sabbath is not a bar to the state's secular goals; it neither reduces its effectiveness for secular purposes nor prevents adherents of other religions from observing their own holy days.

This is how our very own Supreme Court interpreted the separation of Church and State back in 1961. I seriously doubt it would be seen differently today.

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RE: High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Pub... - 5/27/2011 8:03:23 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

There are no sequels to the Old Testament, whether you call it the "New Testament", "The Book of Mormon" or "The Koran"

Well, actually there's isn't really any coherent "Old Testament" either. There's just a bunch of texts collected from different sources reflecting different traditions and two (very) different deities that the priestly compilers creatively fused into "one" with a disturbing propensity for changing his mind and generally behaving like a multiple-personality disordered lunatic.

As for those laws you mention, there's a good deal more than just ten of them, and there isn't a single Jew anywhere on this planet who follows them all, not even the ultra-Orthodox, who for all their piety adopt a decidedly practical attitude when faced with a choice between telling God to fuck off or ending up in a civil prison.

So if you're right, it looks to me like those Christians who are damned are going to have some Jews for company. And maybe that's a good idea. Maybe then, after their grounds for looking down their noses at one another have finally been taken away, they'll at last be able to learn to give up the shit-slinging and get the fuck along.

Of course, I could be wrong.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/27/2011 8:15:03 AM >

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 37

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