RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (Full Version)

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xssve -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 6:59:11 AM)

You know the whole wage issue was investigated years ago, and it turned out women typically fail to demand higher wages, again, possibly because they simply don't tend to calculate status the same way men do - part of that may be cultural, part of it may be simply that they don't equate money with status to the same extent men do, i.e., they need enough to take care of their basic needs, and are leery about pushing it past that.

Culturally, it wasn't all that long ago, it was illegal for women to wear pants.

In this culture, at it's current juncture, money has pretty much replaced everything else as a measure of status, although money itself simply represents resources, a measure of how many children one can support, i.e., it's a fertility symbol.

As a pure abstraction, resource accumulation, divorced from it's biological utility in optimizing K strategies, is tantamount to an irrational neurosis, like the antlers of the Irish Elk, an evolutionary dead end - but try telling anybody that, lol.

Civilization has evolved around gender roles, symbolically speaking although in praxis, there have always been the same profusion of strategies you see now - i.e., there have always been homosexuals, intersexed individuals, whether genitally or biochemically, straight up gender bending, etc., it's there all throughout history, you just have to look harder in some ages, but it's not the official narrative, which is all about binary gender roles to the extent that many people define that as culture, "society", etc..

Most indigenous cultures make no big deal out of it at all, it does have a biological basis, a bias, i.e., the average person tends to identify with their biological gender without really thinking much about it, but culture and symbolism take off where biology ends, politics, in short.

The real differences are profound, but often much subtler, having to do again, largely with reproductive roles, women bear the bulk of reproductive costs, etc., including physical vulnerability, as well as the simple fact that they are the ones that deliver the new life, they are responsible for the care and feeding, etc. - men don't lactate - those things are harder to get around biologically, they aren't abstractions, they're empirical realities, and they result in a certain divergence of motivations between men and women, males and females - since most of these things are common to mammals in general - but we have managed to find more ways of getting around them, and to a greater extent in our advanced technological society than at any other point in human history.




crazyml -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 7:21:31 AM)

It's a tad off topic - But the number of smart, privileged young women who write of 2nd wave feminism (and feminism generally) citing the bullshit stereotypes that the counter-feminists tout is depressing.




RedMagic1 -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 7:43:00 AM)



quote:

I can walk into a room, grab a woman by the hair and watch her neck arch as she slips into subspace.  And I can do this with only the barest framework of consent existing between us.  She could've met me 5 minutes ago and she will still respond physiologically without thought.


This might be the most intriguing thing on the boards since I started posting again. There absolutely are men for whom this is a true statement about their worlds. However, they almost never spend any significant time online. There is a fascinating contradiction here, but when I said I "got" Awareness, what I really meant is that I think I understand why someone with his life experiences would be willing to put up with the static here.

I imagine this post will get people deriding me all over again, but there will be a few people, perhaps, who might be willing to take a second look.




LaTigresse -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 8:58:21 AM)

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrr.........just mostly ignore him.

I've come to the conclusion that some posters do not care if other persons, who do not fit their own predetermined criteria, read or respond to their posts. I believe that the poster in question fits that description. If I do not fit the perceived criteria, I tend to begin skimming, then subconsciously ignoring, their babble. It becomes much like the adults on the old Charlie Brown cartoons. Occasionally there might be something worth hearing/reading that pops through the wa wa wa, but not often.




HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 9:29:25 AM)

quote:

First off, the feminist dogma is a reference point simply because it explores gender-based power dynamics, in particular the role of penetrative sex.
My real point is that it is not feminist dogma at all. Dogma is the prescribed belief of a group, the ideas held in common as laid down by the authoritative body or bodies. There is a feminist dogma, but it has nothing to do with penetrative sex. In fact, very, very little feminist thought has been put into the role of penetrative sex. A lot of anti-feminist thought has gone into it however.

quote:

Secondly, I think you'll find it was probably quite a popular set of notions in second-wave feminism - hardly the marginal sect you're claiming. 
OK. rather than taking your word on this, I did some research. I have been reading and looking stuff up for about 12 hours straight now. And guess what. I have been unable to find a single verifiable instance where a feminist of any standing whatsoever said anything of the sort. please point me to any such utterance. Just give me the name of the feminist who said those things, or the book in which it was said.

If you mean Dworkin, then her famous line about sex equaling violation, well if you actually read the book, you'd understand that the quote is pulled from a passage in which she is explaining the male supremacist view of sex. That's right folks, the sex=rape concept (which isn't even how she said it) is a MALE view, not a feminist one. One that Awareness clearly shares at least to a degree.

And McKimmon (sp? the anti-porn crusader) also never said anything of the sort either. That whole thing was a total lie cooked up by the porn industry to try make her look like a nutcase. Its even on Snopes for God's sake.

So of the two major generally recognized feminist thinkers who have been accused of saying what you claim is dogma, one was so utterly misquoted as to have turned around what she said 100%, and the other it was a complete fabrication. So please, show me where any reputable feminist has ever said anything of the sort.

quote:

Thirdly, your brand of feminism is considerably watered down because a lot of the rights feminists were originally campaigning for have been accepted in many modern societies as inalienable rights available to all citizens regardless of gender. So your brand of feminism isn't heavily based in political and gender theory and at your age you really haven't had much of a chance to explore it. Your personal experience doesn't provide you with much evidence to counter the notion.
I disagree. i have been a feminist pretty much all my life. its how i was raised. So have both my parents, its how they were raised as well. Both my grandmothers are feminists, and were in at the beginning of the 2nd wave. So my watered down brand of feminism is going on its 3rd generation now, I can easily draw on the ideas and experiences of women who were actually in the marches, who were actually there when women publicly burned their bras.

Its getting tiresome having you dismiss 90% of my objections with the "you're young, you'll see it my way when you grow up" argument. You said I'm clever and more perceptive than most of the adults (I am one of the adults on the boards by the way!) on here, so start treating me as if you really thought that.

quote:

You've been sexually dominated by a man?
Yes, I have. You talk a lot about female dominants and how its not real domination. Have you been sexually dominated by a woman? If not, then I have the more relevant experience as I'm in a position to actually judge the two from experience. My submission in the one case was based on fear, guilt and the inability to physically do anything about it. In the other it is based on desire, love, devotion and a deep need to please and obey.




RedMagic1 -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 9:34:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Orrrrrrrrrrrrrr.........just mostly ignore him.

There is always that option![:)]

I choose to exercise that option with a lot of people.  Though not with you................




xssve -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 9:35:35 AM)

MacKinnon.




thishereboi -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 9:38:21 AM)

quote:

I have to call bullshit on the idea that some dude pulling a strange female sub's hair causes her brain to turn off, no matter how Domly he supposedly is.


It would cause my brain to turn off. In fact I would use that as my defense on the off chance he tried to have me arrested for knocking him on his ass.




thishereboi -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 9:43:49 AM)

quote:


Funny, as per usual, you stated it as if it was a fact. Saying 'I can walk into a room, grab a woman by the hair and watch her neck arch as she slips into subspace' doesn't really sound like a possibility so much as a certainty.


Good point. Then you have the newby coming in here. Reading that and thinking it's a good idea. He trots off to his local club and tries it. Now I admit there is a slim chance that he will grab the hair of the right girl and life will be good. But more likely he will either get his ass kicked, get banned before he ever has a shot at meeting people or get thrown in jail.




HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 9:53:38 AM)

quote:

MacKinnon.
Thanks. I am running on fumes at the moment. Like I said I've been researching all night.




PeonForHer -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 10:22:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Biology still applies, but symbolism of penetration/consumption takes off to places well beyond biology - biologically speaking, it's just a convenient way to deliver semen in proximity to the cervix.

You are still talking about doing the penetration, or being engulfed, however you want to look at it, for instance, but it's still the male role, symbolically speaking.



It's a convenient way for the woman to *take* semen to a place in proximity to the cervix. It's a female role, symbolically speaking. [;)] I'm still reaching for those hand-grenades!








PeonForHer -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 10:25:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

It's a tad off topic - But the number of smart, privileged young women who write of 2nd wave feminism (and feminism generally) citing the bullshit stereotypes that the counter-feminists tout is depressing.


Hell, am I with you on that point.




LadyConstanze -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 10:33:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

It's a tad off topic - But the number of smart, privileged young women who write of 2nd wave feminism (and feminism generally) citing the bullshit stereotypes that the counter-feminists tout is depressing.


Hell, am I with you on that point.


Come on, we had a post somewhere in this thread that intercourse (penis in vagina) is always dominating, as I said before, nobody who ever had a good consensual fuck (as in opposed to being a rape victim or a rapist) would ever sprout that nonsense.

The idea that being a feminist makes you a man hater is just crazy, just as those feminist who think women are always superior are crazy, but I do understand that a lot of people are damaged and that some people are a bit inferior, so they hate what they think is a threat to them. A guy who's trying to force women to adhere to the standards of another century is possibly very aware how much he is lacking and how short he would come in comparison, he can swing from tree to tree all he wants and beat his chest and yell "Me Tarzan, you Jane" - it's not really going to work.




PeonForHer -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 10:51:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Come on, we had a post somewhere in this thread that intercourse (penis in vagina) is always dominating, as I said before, nobody who ever had a good consensual fuck (as in opposed to being a rape victim or a rapist) would ever sprout that nonsense.


To be honest, Lady C, I don't think a lack of understanding of femdoms is the real issue here, I think the issue is really a lack of understanding of malesubs. It's always hovering in the background, but gets bypassed. Some, maybe most, Doms don't 'get' the feeling of being a submale. They just haven't experienced it and don't recognise it *as* a feeling. Ever since I knew what sex was, I looked at women a different way to most of my friends. They'd see a soft-porn pic of a woman and see 'Come hither and take me, big boy' and I'd see, in exactly the same picture, 'Come here and serve me'. That power that I felt women to have was always obvious to me. I'm not playing with words when I say that I feel a woman to be 'taking' when I have sex with her. That's just how it is for me.

Having established that: the rest of the opposing case falls down like a stack of dominoes. The symbolism is *chosen*, it's not a given. I choose one set of symbols that fit with my submissive feelings; Doms, apparently, choose another set. I take what I want from non-human nature to exemplify; Doms, it seems, take a different bunch of examples.

Or, neither side (and many Doms seem to do this, too) takes anything at all from non-human nature to bolster their case. This is for the excellent reason that non-human nature can only really tell us about non-human nature. It makes as much or as little sense to try to understand chimps by studying gibbons.

Now, if the proposition were to be 'though there's plenty of overlap, female-dominants draw their strength from *somewhat* different sources than do male dominants,' - then, yes, I'd be happy to agree. But any argument along the lines of 'the male dominance is more real or more true than female dominance' - is nonsense. It doesn't stand up. if you were a heterosexual malesub, or a gay female sub - you'd know it.




LaTigresse -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 10:56:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Orrrrrrrrrrrrrr.........just mostly ignore him.

There is always that option![:)]

I choose to exercise that option with a lot of people.  Though not with you................



Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..................riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggggggggghhhhhhhhhttttttttt..........




RedMagic1 -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 10:57:54 AM)

I don't know how to interpret your post.




LaTigresse -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 11:04:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

I don't know how to interpret your post.


I am sorry..........I should have added something like [:D] to imply that I was teasing you. Being my normal, sarcastic, smartassy self yanno.




RedMagic1 -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 11:12:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
I am sorry..........I should have added something like [:D] to imply that I was teasing you. Being my normal, sarcastic, smartassy self yanno.

I was ignoring you too much to notice.[8D]

But, seriously, I got what I wanted out of this thread.  I wanted a particular commitment to do a particular thing from a particular person, and I obtained that in an email exchange that just concluded.  I don't find the nature/nurture/dominance argument itself to be very interesting -- there have been good posts, mostly concentrated at the beginning at the thread, but, for the most part, these debates devolve into people who aren't going to change their minds talking past one another.

Anyway, I'm done here, though I might continue reading.  I hope you have a great afternoon.




Awareness -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 11:46:13 AM)

  *shrug*  Fortunately dude, your limitations are not everyone's limitations.  Suffice it to say, you really don't know what you're talking about.




Awareness -> RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) (6/1/2011 11:51:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

It's a possibility, not a recommendation.

Funny, as per usual, you stated it as if it was a fact. Saying 'I can walk into a room, grab a woman by the hair and watch her neck arch as she slips into subspace' doesn't really sound like a possibility so much as a certainty.
  Usually the word 'can' denotes possibility or capability.  And yes, it is possible.

quote:

Back at ya. Nowhere did I say what 'other' women will do, nor did I say that you were proposing anything.
I simply said that if you did 'A', my response (and that of many friends) would be 'B'. That's it.

  No.  You did specify what other women will do.  Specifically:
quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
I have to call bullshit on the idea that some dude pulling a strange female sub's hair causes her brain to turn off, no matter how Domly he supposedly is.
  Christ woman, it was only your previous post.  Pay attention.




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