RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid!

RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/2/2011 12:36:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy As that famous Republican said...A rising tide lifts all boats. Yes, John F. Kennedy (R) said that, although it wasn't his origination. The idea behind it of course and the context was that infrastructure spending helps all americans, not just locally to where the infrastructure is improved. It doesn't make a case for corporate welfare on the grand rabid rightist scale.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/2/2011 12:45:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EternalHoH quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy The government that sets policies that make employing legions of manufacturing workers overseas so much more profitable have everything to answer for. That is true. But which class of society spends the most to elect the people who makes these decisions? Figure it out yet? Yup...union members through their dues. [:D]

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/2/2011 12:46:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian America has been a plutocracy for some time now. That aside, the only way to avoid the impending downfall of the United States is to put more people back to work and thus increase government revenues, which can in turn help subsidize the growth we need; the gravy train from taxing the wealthy isn't going to solve our problems, though that's a popular idea spurned on by class warfare. If we don't get on track with our country, we will continue to fall behind in the world economy. It's really as simple as that. Protectionism isn't the answer in a world market, but American companies who employ legions of manufacturing workers overseas have much to answer for. The government that sets policies that make employing legions of manufacturing workers overseas so much more profitable have everything to answer for. Care to expound? I have no doubt your point of view will have some merit, but I've always felt the larger culprit behind tax evasion and offshoring is simple opportunism and greed in the bigger, faster, stronger, cheaper capitalist game. If you're going to ask the question using bogus and inflammatory terms like "tax evasion" and "greed" there is no point in responding. Your mind is closed already.

EternalHoH -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/2/2011 1:38:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy Yup...union members through their dues. [:D] Wrong answer, but thanks for playing!

EternalHoH -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/2/2011 1:39:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy If you're going to ask the question using bogus and inflammatory terms like "tax evasion" and "greed" there is no point in responding. Your mind is closed already. That is one hell of an assumption that you would be able to sway a open mind to begin with.

MarcEsadrian -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/2/2011 1:45:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy If you're going to ask the question using bogus and inflammatory terms like "tax evasion" and "greed" there is no point in responding. Your mind is closed already. I also said your views will no doubt have merit. It was you who insinuated avoidance of government policies and the motive of greater profitability as apologetics for offshoring. Your lack of reply leads me to believe you don't have much to back up your statements, but I'd like to see your side of things in a little more depth beyond a one-liner, if you'd be so-inclined.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/2/2011 3:10:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy If you're going to ask the question using bogus and inflammatory terms like "tax evasion" and "greed" there is no point in responding. Your mind is closed already. I also said your views will no doubt have merit. It was you who insinuated avoidance of government policies and the motive of greater profitability as apologetics for offshoring. Your lack of reply leads me to believe you don't have much to back up your statements, but I'd like to see your side of things in a little more depth beyond a one-liner, if you'd be so-inclined. There is no need for "apologetics" for offshoring. Its simple business. Revenues - Expenses = Profits....the primary reason for a company to exist Since Revenues are only marginally affected by where something is made, a decision to produce offshore must be based on expenses. Domestic expenses ~ Salaries + materials + taxes + compliance costs + administration + marketing Offshore expenses ~ Salaries + materials + taxes + compliance costs + shipping costs + increased administration + marketing What are the big ticket items that make it more profitable to pay the shipping costs and increased administration? Salaries, taxes and compliance costs....all 3 of which are higher domestically due to government intervention than they would be without it. Because core salaries are lower elsewhere, some businesses would still offshore. But policy driven wage costs, taxes and compliance costs drive the decision in many cases.

mnottertail -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/2/2011 3:23:46 PM)
Pharma, for one: US profit growth was maintained even whilst other top industries saw little or no growth. Despite this, "..the pharmaceutical industry is — and has been for years — the most profitable of all businesses in the U.S. In the annual Fortune 500 survey, the pharmaceutical industry topped the list of the most profitable industries, with a return of 17% on revenue." Ohh, doesn't the massive regulation by the government, and the fact that because of massive government interference and so on making the bulk of our US drugs manufactured in the US, and then a distant second in Europe sort of argue directly against your nonsense and show a clear path to domestic profitability, domestic labor, and quality lies in heavy government interference and oversight to correct the lassize faire fuck the people grab the bucks, sell them shit and tell em its arpege route? Perhaps you could use GM a massive loser and now in the black due to massive government oversight as your counterpoint if you disagree with reality.

tweakabelle -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/2/2011 4:42:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SternSkipper quote: This is not a purely US phenomenon. The same trends are evident here in Australia over the past few decades. The mega-rich get even richer and ever more powerful. The rest of us pay for their excess as we slip further and further into powerlessness and poverty. I'm confident these figures will be replicated in Europe too. Tweak, I don't think anybody thinks that it's JUST an American thing at all. But Moyers' was speaking to Americans because THEY are his audience. And I think it concerns him most that people wake the hell up. But you can't just say "West" in this one. It's endemic in the middle East, it's endemic in Russia and it's satellites it's endemic in Japan and yup, Australia. Bout the only fuckers who can be counted out of this mess is Tibetans and some penguins down in the south pole. Yes. I believe you. I confined my observations to the Western economies because I am familiar with them. Unlike some others here I make it a point not to talk about things I know little or nothing about. Speaking of which: quote: willbur Too bad you dont understand economics nor do you avoid false dichotomies. The poor vs the rich is a "false dichotomy"????? Are you serious? What planet are you living on? You clearly haven't got a clue what a dichotomy is. Here's another example of a real dichotomy, just to help you understand: WILLBEURDADDY : TRUTH

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/2/2011 4:54:33 PM)
Your statement was a false dichotomy...the rich can get richer without everyone else getting poorer. It doesnt fit your worldview, but as that great Republican said, a rising tide lifts all boats.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/2/2011 5:16:41 PM)
And the boats that cannot afford longer anchor chains sink.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/2/2011 5:18:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster And the boats that cannot afford longer anchor chains sink. No, they get government provided pontoons.

MarcEsadrian -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/2/2011 10:02:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy What are the big ticket items that make it more profitable to pay the shipping costs and increased administration? Salaries, taxes and compliance costs....all 3 of which are higher domestically due to government intervention than they would be without it. Because core salaries are lower elsewhere, some businesses would still offshore. But policy driven wage costs, taxes and compliance costs drive the decision in many cases. And now we're back to steering around domestic taxes and getting more "bang for the buck" by outsourcing labor. Without a doubt, I believe there are additional stimulus policies the American government should enact (beyond the Economic Stimulus Package) that can help entice business to source its labor within our borders, such as subsidizing emerging industries, further reducing taxes and revising regulatory practices that make everyone happy, but I do wonder if it's going to matter much in the end. As you say, it's a business decision to outsource, and let's be honest—the primary motive is what will forever be the ultimate platinum pussy to capitalism: cheap labor. That's why all of Apple's manufacturing goes to China and Taiwan. That's why Nike's factories are beyond our borders, too. That's why I lost one of my main design clients last year. Growth is a natural desire for a business, but when it means putting Americans out of work is of no importance compared to increasing margins, something is terribly wrong. I don't blame only the financial sector and opportunistic interests of corporations; the attitudes of Americans themselves are partially the root of the problem. They've adapted to what I call the Walmart culture, where the predominant decree from all is must be dirt cheap. Combined with the competitiveness of emerging economies, it's an increasingly bleak picture of the average American skilled worker.

Marini -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/2/2011 10:15:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy What are the big ticket items that make it more profitable to pay the shipping costs and increased administration? Salaries, taxes and compliance costs....all 3 of which are higher domestically due to government intervention than they would be without it. Because core salaries are lower elsewhere, some businesses would still offshore. But policy driven wage costs, taxes and compliance costs drive the decision in many cases. And now we're back to steering around domestic taxes and getting more "bang for the buck" by outsourcing labor. Without a doubt, I believe there are additional stimulus policies the American government should enact (beyond the Economic Stimulus Package) that can help entice business to source its labor within our borders, such as subsidizing emerging industries, further reducing taxes and revising regulatory practices that make everyone happy, but I do wonder if it's going to matter much in the end. As you say, it's a business decision to outsource, and let's be honest—the primary motive is what will forever be the ultimate platinum pussy to capitalism: cheap labor. That's why all of Apple's manufacturing goes to China and Taiwan. That's why Nike's factories are beyond our borders, too. That's why I lost one of my main design clients last year. Growth is a natural desire for a business, but when it means putting Americans out of work is of no importance compared to increasing margins, something is terribly wrong. I don't blame only the financial sector and opportunistic interests of corporations; the attitudes of Americans themselves are partially the root of the problem. They've adapted to what I call the Walmart culture, where the predominant decree from all is must be dirt cheap. Combined with the competitiveness of emerging economies, it's an increasingly bleak picture of the average American skilled worker. Great post, I think I will start a outsourcing thread soon, if someone doesn't beat me to the punch. I think its been over a year since I started one. Reality can be a bitch. Outsourcing is tantamount to slavery

MarcEsadrian -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/2/2011 10:52:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marini quote: ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy What are the big ticket items that make it more profitable to pay the shipping costs and increased administration? Salaries, taxes and compliance costs....all 3 of which are higher domestically due to government intervention than they would be without it. Because core salaries are lower elsewhere, some businesses would still offshore. But policy driven wage costs, taxes and compliance costs drive the decision in many cases. And now we're back to steering around domestic taxes and getting more "bang for the buck" by outsourcing labor. Without a doubt, I believe there are additional stimulus policies the American government should enact (beyond the Economic Stimulus Package) that can help entice business to source its labor within our borders, such as subsidizing emerging industries, further reducing taxes and revising regulatory practices that make everyone happy, but I do wonder if it's going to matter much in the end. As you say, it's a business decision to outsource, and let's be honest—the primary motive is what will forever be the ultimate platinum pussy to capitalism: cheap labor. That's why all of Apple's manufacturing goes to China and Taiwan. That's why Nike's factories are beyond our borders, too. That's why I lost one of my main design clients last year. Growth is a natural desire for a business, but when it means putting Americans out of work is of no importance compared to increasing margins, something is terribly wrong. I don't blame only the financial sector and opportunistic interests of corporations; the attitudes of Americans themselves are partially the root of the problem. They've adapted to what I call the Walmart culture, where the predominant decree from all is must be dirt cheap. Combined with the competitiveness of emerging economies, it's an increasingly bleak picture of the average American skilled worker. Great post, I think I will start a outsourcing thread soon, if someone doesn't beat me to the punch. I think its been over a year since I started one. Reality can be a bitch. Outsourcing is tantamount to slavery Thank you, and I would enjoy reading thoughts expressed in that thread, too. I was going to attach my thoughts about the human rights issues concerning outsourcing to the cheapest third world countries in the world, but I decided to save that for another day.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/3/2011 12:45:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy What are the big ticket items that make it more profitable to pay the shipping costs and increased administration? Salaries, taxes and compliance costs....all 3 of which are higher domestically due to government intervention than they would be without it. Because core salaries are lower elsewhere, some businesses would still offshore. But policy driven wage costs, taxes and compliance costs drive the decision in many cases. And now we're back to steering around domestic taxes and getting more "bang for the buck" by outsourcing labor. Without a doubt, I believe there are additional stimulus policies the American government should enact (beyond the Economic Stimulus Package) that can help entice business to source its labor within our borders, such as subsidizing emerging industries, further reducing taxes and revising regulatory practices that make everyone happy, but I do wonder if it's going to matter much in the end. As you say, it's a business decision to outsource, and let's be honest—the primary motive is what will forever be the ultimate platinum pussy to capitalism: cheap labor. That's why all of Apple's manufacturing goes to China and Taiwan. That's why Nike's factories are beyond our borders, too. That's why I lost one of my main design clients last year. Growth is a natural desire for a business, but when it means putting Americans out of work is of no importance compared to increasing margins, something is terribly wrong. I don't blame only the financial sector and opportunistic interests of corporations; the attitudes of Americans themselves are partially the root of the problem. They've adapted to what I call the Walmart culture, where the predominant decree from all is must be dirt cheap. Combined with the competitiveness of emerging economies, it's an increasingly bleak picture of the average American skilled worker. You dont need to subsidize ANY industries, you just need to get out of there way and give them a level playing field with other countries. what is wrong with putting Americans out of work is the conditions that MAKE those margins better offshore. The profit motive is responsible for most of what we enjoy today. You are totally correct about the "Walmart culture". The way to combat "cheap" is with "better". But if people would rather buy the made in China toy with a little lead in it than pay the $1.49 extra, you can't legislate their bad decisions away. The auto industry is a perfect example. When the quality out of Detroit sucked, we in essence "outsourced" autos to Japanese companies. The quality got better, Japanese quality got worse, and there is some hope of profitability. People actually do buy cars based on quality...but there isnt enough quality differentiation in small ticket items to change that decision.

EternalHoH -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/3/2011 6:36:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy The auto industry is a perfect example. When the quality out of Detroit sucked, we in essence "outsourced" autos to Japanese companies. The quality got better, Japanese quality got worse, and there is some hope of profitability. People actually do buy cars based on quality...but there isnt enough quality differentiation in small ticket items to change that decision. Auto isn't quite the right example, as the foreign automakers DO make cars here, in this country. They DO employ Americans. Americans outsourced their perception of car quality, but in the end, they really did not outsource the jobs. The same can't be said for 98% of the shit like shoes, toasters and TVs sold in Walmart.

EternalHoH -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/3/2011 6:53:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy You dont need to subsidize ANY industries, you just need to get out of there way and give them a level playing field with other countries. what is wrong with putting Americans out of work is the conditions that MAKE those margins better offshore. The 'level paying field' is a myth. And that is what the "free marketers" playing the government blame game never get through their heads. There are 650 million people in an 'island' of highly developed countries competing with 2.5 billion poor people behind the bamboo curtain. There is no such thing as a "level playing field".

MrRodgers -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/3/2011 6:57:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fellow quote: I think it is beyond just taxing the income of the aristocracy, it's time to tax the wealth that they have and/or control. Wrong idea. It would just accelerate the economic collapse. Only tax policy wouldn't fix much, if anything. The whole economy needs to be restructured. It is not likely to happen though. The good news is: very soon foreign producers will not take paper (US Treasury bonds and Federal Reserve notes) for goods and the US needs to restore the production. Yes, they will. Just where will they go ? Greece ? The Euro ? Hardly or they would have already. America's 'economy' is financial (paper-trading) as the means of production has been for 30 years and will continue to be...shifted outside the country. America is not really economically a country, nobody [is] one...they are either profit-centers or they are not. Just how is it that to tax those that make almost all of the money...will just accelerate economic decline ? Where was our economic decline when we had top rates of 80-90% ? Where was our economic decline ? I'll tell you...in the private federal reserve, their notes, a deliberate bubble driven inflationary function. If you think the role of the fed is to keep inflation down...why is it still here ? It has been an abject failure. The fed rules because the plutocracy works well for those profiting from it. For example, rates have been historically low to create the real estate and mortgage bubble and for a historically long time now to rebuild value equity (paper) markets...not to stimulate demand and restart the economy. It has worked brilliantly.

mnottertail -> RE: Plutocracy Now! or It's the Inequality, stupid! (6/3/2011 7:05:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EternalHoH quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy The auto industry is a perfect example. When the quality out of Detroit sucked, we in essence "outsourced" autos to Japanese companies. The quality got better, Japanese quality got worse, and there is some hope of profitability. People actually do buy cars based on quality...but there isnt enough quality differentiation in small ticket items to change that decision. Auto isn't quite the right example, as the foreign automakers DO make cars here, in this country. They DO employ Americans. Americans outsourced their perception of car quality, but in the end, they really did not outsource the jobs. The same can't be said for 98% of the shit like shoes, toasters and TVs sold in Walmart. And in other news, GM (who was massively managed out of debt by the government) is selling the shit outta cars in china, seems they are using them as limousines because them cars got some phat back. So, thats gonna help on the trade deficit. And thats why they are plunking money into china, its not because of the hint of a secret conspiracy deal by the Kenyan. It is called, they are finally in. Good for business, thanks Mr President for selling some of OUR goods overseas.

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