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I see Rich's point. Being given something has no value. He is right

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ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Nothing... absolutely nothing is "free" -- somebody always pays for it.  What many fail to understand is, at some point, that "somebody" runs out of money.  Citizens are afforded the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".  Thus, what you do with said "right" is up to you.  Nobody (including the taxpayers) owes anyone anything... period!  If someone is too stupid (or lazy) to figure out how to get an education, then they're clearly not smart enough to be a doctor, or engineer, or whatever.  I'm happy to help the helpless... not the stupid or lazy.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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Paying for it creates far more incentive to be prepared than knowing youre going to be sitting across the aisle from someone who shouldn't have graduated high school much less be in college for free.

You see, here is the mistake you are making... the ones that work the hardest didn't pay for it, they worked for it. In other words, those who had scholarships, grants that were dependent on a good GPA... these were the best students. I know this because I didn't pay for college, and I have a gpa in the top 3%.

Now, the students that tend to fuck off the most were the ones that had parents who paid for it. Yes, their education was paid for... but they were killing time until their real life started. These were invariably the students that came to me a few days before finals desperately trying to pull a D or an F into a C-... "can you help me by editing this paper?", (meaning rewrite it for them), "Can you help me pass this test" (which meant tell them what was probably going to be on it and using my notes)....


The kids that work at a job, get loans to pay tuition, etc etc etc, these are the ones that are getting fucked by the system. They do not have a mommy or a daddy to pay their way. They have to work (which takes time away from classes), or they take a bazillion units so they can try to graduate early and take less debt on (which makes their grades suffer). This set is trying to get out of school early, where as the kids who have parents who pay are trying to stretch it out.


If all of these kids were competing academically, the kids with the parents who pay wouldn't be taking the place of those who are actually working to get somewhere. It wouldn't have impacted my education, as I got one based on merit.... how many students could have merited it if they could focus more on learning instead of when their next shift at Starbucks starts.

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

An educated population would be more productive.

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Having worked my butt of next to uni and experienced the ignorance from certain employment based students when at times I had to skip a lesson when I had to prioritise to earn the money, I can truly second that

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Have you heard of Free University in San Francisco? I have a couple of friends involved with it. I wanted to go in February, but I had other obligations. World renowned authors, political thinkers, etc etc etc... teaching people for free....

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ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I think college should be free, period. It would create a certain amount of competition for available seats in the classrooms, but that would encourage students to be more academically competitive for those seats.

Paying for it creates far more incentive to be prepared than knowing youre going to be sitting across the aisle from someone who shouldn't have graduated high school much less be in college for free.

When its mommy or daddy paying for it, is there more incentive than someone who cant afford it and earns their place through grades and hard work?

Theres plenty of money available for those who cant afford it and earn their place through grades and hard work.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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I see Rich's point. Being given something has no value. He is right

Some of my most valued things were given to me by people I valued....*scratches head at the paradox*

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The things had value because of who gave them to you. If someone just ups and gives you a college degree, and you didnt have to work for it, what value would be placed on that?

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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

An educated population would be more productive.

Assuming we think learning the importance of hard work, individual responsibility, creative problem solving, and personal sacrifice, are irrelevant to becoming educated.

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Those that do not want to work hard will not take advantage of free higher education, or they will wash out. It is as simple as that. Free education does not equate to a hand-out degree.

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If someone is too stupid (or lazy) to figure out how to get an education, then they're clearly not smart enough to be a doctor, or engineer, or whatever.

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Huge medical school debts — doctors now graduate owing more than $155,000 on average, and 86 percent have some debt — are why so many doctors shun primary care in favor of highly paid specialties, where there are incentives to give expensive treatments and order expensive tests, an important driver of rising health care costs.

We estimate that we can make medical school free for roughly $2.5 billion per year — about one-thousandth of what we spend on health care in the United States each year. What’s more, we can offset most if not all of the cost of medical school without the government’s help by charging doctors for specialty training.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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The things had value because of who gave them to you. If someone just ups and gives you a college degree, and you didnt have to work for it, what value would be placed on that?

By its very nature a degree is something you have to "work" for. Of course, some people work harder than others because the work comes easy to them, but they still have to do the work to get the degree.

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I see Rich's point. Being given something has no value. He is right. The value to this education is the grades... you still have to pass... is the clinicals... there is no way to fake knowledge in medicine. When was the last time anyone went to a new Dr and asked what their GPA was, or in what percentage of their class did they graduate?

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ulia, I said I saw his point... I didnt say I agreed with him. An education is work.. its not something you are given for free.

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

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ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Nothing... absolutely nothing is "free" -- somebody always pays for it.  What many fail to understand is, at some point, that "somebody" runs out of money.  Citizens are afforded the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".  Thus, what you do with said "right" is up to you.  Nobody (including the taxpayers) owes anyone anything... period!  If someone is too stupid (or lazy) to figure out how to get an education, then they're clearly not smart enough to be a doctor, or engineer, or whatever.  I'm happy to help the helpless... not the stupid or lazy.

So those who aspire to higher education in any field but may not have the financial means to do so are either stupid or lazy?

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Too stupid to get a student loan... too lazy to work to contribute to their own education -- yes, both stupid and lazy.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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ulia, I said I saw his point... I didnt say I agreed with him. An education is work.. its not something you are given for free.

I have had to take student loans out for living expenses because I have to live, but my education has been FREE. Of course I had to merit it, but it came fairly easy to me. I did not have to sweat much for it, but this does not mean I do not value it...There is nothing I have valued more.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

All those points and not many had much to do with wether I could pass the actual program or not.