RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (5/31/2011 11:49:14 AM)

Nobody anywhere discounts that.  The issue stated at the outset was  'had they known'.

So much ado about nothing.



flcouple2009 -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (5/31/2011 1:04:30 PM)

wilbur,

A few salesmen pushing the edge to pad their stats is much different from a company policy which creates and pushes fraud.

The difference is never hard to tell once it's dug into. 



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (5/31/2011 2:05:51 PM)

All I can tell you is that it was a real eye opener in the few years of that business.

Even the admins at the nursing homes were getting kick backs.

Even if it floats towards the top as rumor, the plausable deniability kicks in as there is no way to prove the information was passed along. The large nursing home corporation, that was a client of mine, had verbal instructions on things that could not be sent out in memos or email.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

then they should and will be convicted. You're overstating the case though. The health business is no different than any other large business, and if some lower level people want to conspire in some manner to inflate their own bonuses/evaluations it can easily be done without detection for years without there being willful negligence.



tazzygirl -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (5/31/2011 2:09:28 PM)

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2011/March/11-civ-270.html

They were specifically told by the government what they were doing wrong, and still continued. Now, anyone truly want to believe only the lower sales people knew?



Lucylastic -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (5/31/2011 5:20:39 PM)

I thought these execs were the cream of the crop bringing in millions of dollars, earning jagillions for their shareholders and their bottom line?  wonderful bonus's n bennies because they knew how to run a business welll. If this is happening, and they didnt know? they should have their bonus's bennies and jobs vacated. They simply arent earning their money are they.
My pity runs out at insurance and health companies making people suffer so they can have more corruption for themselves.
Whistling in the wind  I know but I would like to see this go thru the financial services area too.
Personally I would house them with murderers and pedes not in some country club white collar crime hotel.








willbeurdaddy -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (5/31/2011 5:24:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

wilbur,

A few salesmen pushing the edge to pad their stats is much different from a company policy which creates and pushes fraud.

The difference is never hard to tell once it's dug into. 



I dont disagree. Re-read what I said if you think I would. Hint: "unless" is a key word.



SilverMark -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (5/31/2011 5:40:12 PM)

Perhaps they'll make THe Gov. Mr. Scott actually pay for his past indiscretions?
http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2010/jun/04/rick-scott/rick-scott-former-healthcare-ceo-defends-columbiah/




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (5/31/2011 5:42:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Perhaps they'll make THe Gov. Mr. Scott actually pay for his past indiscretions?
http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2010/jun/04/rick-scott/rick-scott-former-healthcare-ceo-defends-columbiah/




Perhaps they will...if they think they can prove negligence.



flcouple2009 -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (5/31/2011 5:52:46 PM)

Mark,

There's no going back there.  That was already settled with fines.



tazzygirl -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (5/31/2011 5:53:21 PM)

So was Forest. Hasnt stopped them from going after the CEO.



flcouple2009 -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (5/31/2011 5:54:58 PM)

They're never going to back on that while he is a sitting Governor. 



tazzygirl -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (5/31/2011 5:55:37 PM)

Maybe,....lol.. what political affiliation is he?



DarkSteven -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (5/31/2011 6:10:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
The health business is no different than any other large business, and if some lower level people want to conspire in some manner to inflate their own bonuses/evaluations it can easily be done without detection for years without there being willful negligence.


This kinda confuses me, because I thought the guy at the top was already liable for the actions of his company's people.

That said, it's just WAY too easy for the head honcho to verbally authorize something and deny it later.  Holding him responsible for all actions under him is the only way around that. 



Lucylastic -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (5/31/2011 6:13:25 PM)

It works for the Pres doesnt it?
Im responsible for anything that goes on with my business
But it seems theres always a scapegoat to cover the arses of the guilty  in this kind of BS



thompsonx -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (5/31/2011 6:20:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

"Now, on top of fines paid by a company, senior executives can face criminal charges even if they weren't involved in the scheme but could have stopped it had they known"

So CEOs are expected to be mind readers? Any convictions on this basis will never hold up in higher court unless it can be proven the CEO was negligent in not knowing.



They get the big bux and the corner office because they are suppose to know.



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (5/31/2011 8:29:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
The health business is no different than any other large business, and if some lower level people want to conspire in some manner to inflate their own bonuses/evaluations it can easily be done without detection for years without there being willful negligence.


This kinda confuses me, because I thought the guy at the top was already liable for the actions of his company's people.

That said, it's just WAY too easy for the head honcho to verbally authorize something and deny it later.  Holding him responsible for all actions under him is the only way around that. 



There have been some attempted financial prosecutions under the reponsible corporate officer doctrine, even without direct knowledge. Those have been generally limited to cases where the general public has been put in danger (pollution being the main one).

Criminal liability without knowledge and negligence has never been successfully prosecuted afaik. And if it became a real threat there wouldnt be a helluva a lot of CEOs willing to take that risk, just like there wouldnt be many investors without the corporate veil.



Termyn8or -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (6/1/2011 7:01:01 AM)

FR

"So CEOs are expected to be mind readers? Any convictions on this basis will never hold up in higher court unless it can be proven the CEO was negligent in not knowing. "

Bullshit, it's not a matter of not knowing, they know. They wanted it, they organized it, they ordered it and they profited by it. Fucking bullshit. "I didn't know" It's a matter of criminal responsibility.

I KNOW what it means to operate under what "we" call a corporate shell. It keeps people from getting busted, thrown in jail and losing their (or my) personal assets. It's been abused by many, I can tell you from personal experience but then I would have to kill you.

Get upfront about it, nobody at the helm is pure as the driven snow. They know it and they want it. They want the money. Don't play stupid,,,,,,,for a couple of reasons. One is obvious, the other is that we are not that stupid.

T^T



tazzygirl -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (6/1/2011 7:51:24 AM)

How many pharmaceutical companies get a cease and desist letter from the FDA... and no one tells the CEO?



mnottertail -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (6/1/2011 7:52:39 AM)

google it. you're the slave. wilbur ain't gonna do it, you know that.



flcouple2009 -> RE: Executives to pay for health care fraud (6/1/2011 7:58:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

How many pharmaceutical companies get a cease and desist letter from the FDA... and no one tells the CEO?


They don't bother the CEO with those kinds of petty details



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