RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (Full Version)

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sunshinemiss -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/1/2011 6:12:27 PM)

Sunny
Quote of the Day
goes to
ChatteParfaitt

for
Relationships are supposed to be symbiotic, not parasitic.


http://www.collarchat.com/m_3703603/tm.htm
(phew... just enough time before running out the door!)




ChatteParfaitt -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/1/2011 6:13:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Sunny
Quote of the Day
goes to
ChatteParfaitt

for
Relationships are supposed to be symbiotic, not parasitic.


http://www.collarchat.com/m_3703603/tm.htm
(phew... just enough time before running out the door!)


Oh wow yeah me !! Thank you sunny one.




NuevaVida -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/1/2011 6:15:02 PM)

Hi Sunshine,

I agree - there are things we all need to thrive.  Go without enough of them and you start wilting. My life is about a lot more than bread, water and shelter, and I choose thriving over existing, so there ya go.

The scoop with the Mister and I is simply enjoying who the other person is, and what that includes.  Rather than berate me for my absent-mindedness, he realizes it's part of who I am, and not only accepts it, but is willing to give me reminders or follow up after me to make sure I didn't forget anything (like adding water to the coffee pot before setting it for the night).

Yes, he'll watch chick-flicks with me, and he drove 3 hours out of his way to make sure my mother had a ride to Christmas with the family.  We look out for each other, and my happiness is as important to him as his is to me.

Undomly?  Whatev!  I see it as a man who sees the big picture and has the ability to lead and manage in a way in which his follower is happy and eager to serve.  His need to thrive is not his sole goal; rather, the combined need for us to both thrive together.  It's domly enough for me that the people he oversees (myself and his daughter) are healthy and happy,  respect and admire him, and go out of our way to do things for him.  It's domly enough for me that because of who he is, I can't help but happily serve him.




NuevaVida -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/1/2011 6:19:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

If all of this is the case - and I do believe you folks about your relationships - why is there so much of an attitude from folks saying that doing what the s-type wants isn't domly? You are a service top (like that's a bad thing). You aren't in control. The s-type is the one in control. Etc. I see it all over the place.


To add to my previous thought about this - it's because, I suspect, they're trying to fit into a description of a label, rather than simply be.

"I really want to give this to my slave, but that would make me 'unmasterly' so I won't."  How is THAT being authentic?




leadership527 -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/1/2011 6:21:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
Actually, the sentence I was about to type next makes me think that maybe I do have an answer for you on why people say those things. I was about to say 'Happiness in never a zero-sum game, even in d/s relationships.' It occurs to me that maybe the sentiments you're talking about come from people who do view happiness as a zero-sum game, and therefore think that 'giving up' some of their own happiness isn't dominance.

I'll go you one further. In my experience the VAST majority of people, both vanilla and otherwise, conceptualize their entire relationship as a zero sum game. I say that frequently when I talk about "adversarial thinking".

I don't please Carol at my expense. She does not please me at her expense. We both win or lose together.




ChatteParfaitt -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/1/2011 6:24:54 PM)

As usual I like your post and like your dynamic. It seems so realistic to me. One thing I love is that you have that us, together, as a couple thing going. Which I believe is what leadership was talking about in his post.

To me, the whole point of a relationship is that you are making the journey we call life together. It's not about your needs or my needs but our needs. What do *we* need to do, to travel this rocky road together? If you are not working with each other, you are working against each other, and in my mind that is the whole point of a D/s relationship, to have a framework for how to work together.




DesFIP -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/1/2011 6:27:51 PM)

Every time this comes up some idiot quotes Maslow's Hierarchy and then exclaims that the sub doesn't need anything more than food, shelter and clothing. Canned stew and oatmeal qualify as food but I'm not going to thrive being fed a diet of that. Nor am I willing to spend time cooking good food if I don't get to eat it.

I also don't understand people who say they have nothing that helps define them. That any strong controlling figure would do, whether or not it were male or female, old or young, etc. I'm more than a one trick pony, I have lots of facets, all of which interest him.

If he hated my most favorite interest, we wouldn't be compatible. If it only takes an hour a week, then it's no problem allowing the other that hour. I absolutely adore Clean House, he'd rather have his toenails pulled out than watch it.

But he has no problem when we have time to kill spending it in Barnes & Noble even though he's not a big reader. He'll amuse himself with a magazine in the cafe while I'm picking books.

However if he played golf, I would not be joining him. I took lessons as a kid and have never seen any purpose to the game. Having an ex who would play on Saturdays with friends was fine, listening to stroke by stroke discussion of the game was not. Golf is definitely a hard limit for me.




NuevaVida -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/1/2011 6:38:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

As usual I like your post and like your dynamic. It seems so realistic to me. One thing I love is that you have that us, together, as a couple thing going. Which I believe is what leadership was talking about in his post.


Hi ChatteParfaitt,  Yes, the relationship is "us based."  Created by us and for us, and shared by us. His authority over me does not remove the us-factor.  As he reminds me often, "This is us."  Hence, our shared profile name: ThisIsUs.

quote:


To me, the whole point of a relationship is that you are making the journey we call life together. It's not about your needs or my needs but our needs. What do *we* need to do, to travel this rocky road together? If you are not working with each other, you are working against each other, and in my mind that is the whole point of a D/s relationship, to have a framework for how to work together.



I think the framework of any healthy relationship (not just D/s) is working together.  So when problems arise, the problem becomes the adversary, we don't become each other's adversaries. 




DomImus -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/1/2011 7:24:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
If all of this is the case - and I do believe you folks about your relationships - why is there so much of an attitude from folks saying that doing what the s-type wants isn't domly? You are a service top (like that's a bad thing). You aren't in control. The s-type is the one in control. Etc. I see it all over the place.


So if you are correct - and I don't really disagree with you in spirit in general terms although I think you've condensed it down a little too far - then even the thread title "Thriving S" is a misnomer. If the dominants are all service tops and the submissives are all really the ones in charge should we even be calling them submissive? I don't think so. I think we need a new euphemism for the former submissive that perhaps plays off of and works with with the term "service top".

As an aside, there are clearly folks with dominant/submissive styled dynamics in their relationships that don't mirror any of what you are suggesting. There are those in the submissive posture who retain the ultimate right to decide whether they will participate but then surrender all remaining decisions to the dominant person. It really does happen on occasion. A handful of page one posters who happen to agree with you isn't some huge rubber stamp.






sexyred1 -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/1/2011 8:00:09 PM)

As one of the "page one posters" you cite, if you actually read what I wrote, I agreed with sunny that was the dynamic that I liked, but went on to discuss how there are a myriad of other dynamics that others believe in.

So I doubt that sunny was seeking a rubber stamped approval on anything. More like a discussion.




DesFIP -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/1/2011 8:42:40 PM)

Like Jeff & Carol, we also strive for a win/win solution. The problem is the adversary, not either of us.
And I don't know how anyone could have a successful, long lasting relationship which is based on one person being constantly unhappy. I have to suspect that a dominant who bases his entire relationship on denial of everything is a very insecure human being.




Arpig -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/1/2011 9:12:08 PM)

quote:

As an aside, there are clearly folks with dominant/submissive styled dynamics in their relationships that don't mirror any of what you are suggesting. There are those in the submissive posture who retain the ultimate right to decide whether they will participate but then surrender all remaining decisions to the dominant person. It really does happen on occasion. A handful of page one posters who happen to agree with you isn't some huge rubber stamp.
OK DI, she asked some questions...nobody was agreeing or disagreeing with her, because she didn't make a proposal, she asked how we viewed a particular aspect of  the interaction between a dominant and a submissive. And when she had received a bunch of answers all reflecting the same general view, she asked a follow up question to the people who felt that way. Still no proposal with which to agree or disagree.

Learn to read the OP in full, and perhaps reread it so you actually understand it, and then you'll avoid making posts like this and you won't look quite so....ill informed.




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/1/2011 10:11:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

If all of this is the case... why is there so much of an attitude from folks saying that doing what the s-type wants isn't domly?



Though not a perfect explanation, Sunshine, I feel the following writing helps explain much of this attitude...  

quote:



Dominant vs. Bully

This is not the easiest thing to explain, or spot, as it takes some reasonable observation on the part of the sub/slave to determine which category a potential dominant falls under. As such, I will try to use examples to help you distinguish the difference between a dominant and a bully -- with the key difference being the impetus for one is confidence, where the other is insecurity.  In my opinion, the vast majority of those that call themselves "Doms" or "Masters" on kink sites are little more than wimps who can't cut-it with a strong, independent vanilla woman, so they go online, learn a few buzz-words, pick up a pair of dark sunglasses, leather pants, check the "Dominant" button in their profile, and POOF... instant Master of the Universe. In short, they turn to the sub/slave girls thinking they won't challenge their already fragile/insecure egos, as this is what the bully seeks, and preys upon... one who will blindly worship and submit... i.e., one who presents no challenge or responsibility.

Now, while this may seem confusing to some, as they seek to "worship" and "submit", and yes... of course a dominant desires your submission and obedience, he certainly does not seek your worship, as he both understands, and expects, to have first earned your trust, respect, and even love... and in doing so, your submission and surrender. He neither seeks, or quite frankly, is comfortable with, your (or anyone else's) worship because he knows he too is fallible... just as you are. However, he is also confident in his ability to make the right/best decisions for himself (and you), more often than the wrong/worst decisions, and has a track record of having done so. Additionally, when he has erred, He admits it.

Contrast this with the bully, who feels he is NEVER wrong... who seeks you to worship him... who demands you never question him... and who will never admit to have made a mistake. Moreover, unlike the dominant, with the bully, his alleged dominance is little more than an act... one where he appears as an emotionless, unaffectionate, and unforgiving robot of sorts. The bully must act this way so as not to break his "dominant character". Read that again... he is merely playing the role of a dominant man. It's little more than an act... like an actor playing a role in a movie. He must keep this dominant facade, or risk showing you how absolutely insecure he is.

Reflect on the vast majority of emails in your Inbox... how many (in their introductory email) immediately demand you refer to them as "Sir" or "Master" or something similar? How many demand that "You are now owned by me"... "I am your new Master"... or other similar stupidity? Quite a few, and probably even most, because as I've stated, most on these sites are not Doms/Masters, but bullies.

To provide you with the greatest insight, I will use my own life to hopefully explain the difference between a dominant and a bully. In my life, my father was a very dominant man... not a "Dom", as we define it... but dominant. My mother, a very strong woman, but dually... submissive to my father; but only to my father, not to the world. Thus, her submission to my father was both earned, and by choice. Moreover, while very dominant, my father was still a very loving, affectionate, funny, and caring man. I'd seen him laugh, cry, care for us and others, show sympathy, empathy, strength, determination, and humility. This was my role-model for a dominant man. He was not an emotionless tyrant, but a loving, confident, strong and determined man.

Many, if not most, did not have such a role-model for a dominant man. So where do their perceptions of "dominance" come from, then? From the tough-kid on the playground, or the jerk who beat them up, or the asshole he may work for. In short, his role-model for a dominant is a bully, and that is who he is mimicing. He's mimicking the only reference he has to what he incorrectly thinks a "dominant man" is supposed to be. And so, as you sit there scratching your head reading email after email... thinking to yourself, "OMG... what a complete jerk?!!", now you know why... he's simply acting like a jerk, because that's what he thinks a dominant man is supposed to act like... a bully!

Now, you may also receive the otherwise "love-centric" type of emails, where the alleged Dom/Master is spouting off about how wonderful life with him will be... how he's going to "care for" and "protect" you, and "take all your worries away", and on, and on. While this may sound wonderfully sweet (and I'm not saying there aren't those that truly wish to care for you), I'm also saying, be careful... as this self-proclaimed "Knight on a white horse" is not really looking for a sub/slave, but a domestic servant. And by the time you've moved-in with him, it'll become abundantly clear that Dr. Jekyll has quickly become Mr. Hyde, and you will have become his kinky maid/kinky wifey-wife in exchange for all that "caring and protection". And have no doubt, your "Knight" will expect your worship, just as any insecure bully does.

Mind you, I'm certainly not stating that a sub/slave shouldn't be expected to perform domestic duties for her Dom/Master, just that her use/service should not be some sort of exchange for his caring for you, as that's not a D/s or M/s dynamic... that's little more than a "I've done this for you, so I expect you to do this for me" form of emotional manipulation. It's not based in a sub/slave's love, trust, or respect for her Dom/Master, or his for her... rather, it's based in obligation to the bully. So be careful, because I assure you, with such a person, nothing you do will ever be good enough for the bully... nothing!








uncertainlyizzy -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/2/2011 5:23:35 AM)

I think if you're not thriving then perhaps you shouldn't stick around. I think what thriving looks like for you and what you need to thrive are different for everyone though. If it's working for you then run with it.




sunshinemiss -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/2/2011 6:44:21 AM)


If I'm reading folks right, it seems that a general theme is that the ones who are saying "that's not domly" are talking about fantasy / definitions rather than actual real life relationships.  I'd say I agree, but I've seen several well respected posters make this actual statement or ones very similar. 

I'm sure that time and development of trust are factors.

So it seems that the thriving part is a valued part of a relationship, going toward that doesn't make anybody less domly, and is actually something that is worked on.  It sounds very fluid the way people are talking about it.

It also sounds like it changes over time and with levels of trust.  (Or is that just me opining?  If it is, apologies). 

So.... ok if this is the case, (Here it comes)... why are so many people willing to allow others to get away with saying "that's not very domly" or "you are topping from the bottom" or other nonsense?  We would certainly call them on it if they were doing something physically dangerous... we alert them if they are doing something that could cause emotional harm.  Why is this a sacred cow that people are rarely called out about?  Or is that again just me opining?

best,
sunshine




LaTigresse -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/2/2011 7:10:54 AM)

There are a few thoughts that come to mind when reading through this thread so far.

I am often one of those people that read a drama princess calls themself a submissive/slave thread and think to myself they are behaving like a spoilt brat and expecting (and apparently getting) their dominant/master/mistress, to serve/submit to them.

What I base that on...hard to describe really. I do believe that, as someone else mentioned, the biggest fault lies in lack of communication at the beginning. A hot fuck and shared like of kink does not a relationship make. It only makes for a hot fuck and a shared like of kink.

Some s types would say that they need an active nightlife, an active participation in a BDSM community, cigarettes, soda, loads of junk food.......you name it, whatever 'it that I do not do' is. The fact is, anyone that were to belong to me, would NOT have any of those things. They may honestly believe they need to smoke to thrive but I know otherwise..........so it will not be allowed, I don't care how much they whine about it. Similarly with soda. Too bad you THINK you need it to function, you will find out differently if you belong to me. Now, if a person needed a certain type or degree of social interaction that very likely was not going to happen if they belonged to me, then they likely would not belong to me......nip that issue in the bud before it becomes an issue.

If I saw a dominant person, in a similar situation, rabidly anti smoking, the submissive party knew that but demanded they neeeeeded it and tossed a fit until they were allowed to smoke. That the dominant person gave in and allowed it, then yes, I would look negatively at BOTH parties. The dominant party was not taking control and the submissive party was not submitting.

My belief is that A......communication is vital and necessary from the beginning. Conversations about this type of thing should be happening earlier rather than later. I mean......Yay for finding out both parties totally get off on lube free butt fucking but it isn't the be all for creating a solid relationship either.

Secondly, I feel that the responsibility for this communication is equally shared. I get bloody awful sick of s types creating threads to pitch a fit about not being allowed to do whatever it is they feel they neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed to be allowed to do when it is obvious they've never had any constructive conversation about it with the one person they need to communicate with. Yet, they felt confident enough in believing that person was wonderful enough to submit to, to want to belong to.

And lastly.......for ME.....there are also differences based upon the type of relationship involved. I sit back and look at how they define their relationship....D/s in one of it's many flavours or M/s......which to ME, the slave really has only two choices....submit or not.

Too many people seem to rush headlong into a situation without considering all the potential issues.




ChatteParfaitt -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/2/2011 7:41:17 AM)

I think one of the issues in this thread is how exactly do you define what a person needs to thrive?  Though we can probably agree on what people physically need to thrive, (i.e. food, water, air, shelter from the elements) determining what the individual needs to thrive emotionally is far more subjective.

Take LaT's examples as above. In her dynamic, smoking is bad for the health, therefore, it is not something you need to thrive (physically), and would not be allowed. The issue of smoking being a emotional coping tool (or crutch) is not addressed. I'm not saying that's wrong, that is what is right in *her* dynamic.

As a "smokoholic" currently in remission (yah for me) I have to say that would not work for me. I've never smoked out of a physical need, but rather an emotional one. Yes, it's a bad, nasty unhealthy habit and I'm really glad I am not doing it, but, and this is a big but for me (but, not butt you pervs), that reasons why I smoked were my issues to deal with.  It was *my* battle to fight, and it continues to be my battle to fight.

However, that the man knew it was my issue to deal with, rarely complained about it (despite the smell and the cost) really helped build my trust with him. I could love him and be sub to him w/o fear of totally losing me. And that's important in my dynamic.

Lastly, I think there is an extreme limit to how much a dominant can positively shape someone emotionally. Obviously, the better the foundation of trust between the two, the more both are going to get out of it in the way of positive emotional outcome. But too many seem to think D/s is a substitute for good therapy, and it's not.




sunshinemiss -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/2/2011 8:23:57 AM)

Fair points ladies - particularly the difference between perception of emotional needs and actual emotional needs.  And my need is sleep... so more later.  *night everybody.*

sunshine




LafayetteLady -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/2/2011 8:49:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus
As an aside, there are clearly folks with dominant/submissive styled dynamics in their relationships that don't mirror any of what you are suggesting. There are those in the submissive posture who retain the ultimate right to decide whether they will participate but then surrender all remaining decisions to the dominant person.


You are failing to consider those are the same people who while they admit they have surrendered "all" decisions to their partner, they also will quickly say to questioning about things such as health issues, "But he/she would never do that. My health is a priority to him, because he wants what he owns in good health."

Just using that as an example, the conclusion that must be reached is that these couples have actually chosen well. They have chosen dominants who, although the submissive/slave allowed (and yes I do mean allowed) to make the decisions for the sub/slave, it is known that the decisions the dom/master is going to make is one that is going to go towards making the s-type continue to thrive.

Call it smoke and mirrors if you want. The bottom line remains that the people in the relationship are the only ones who can decide what works for them, and the reality is that if the d-type ever started making decisions consistently against what the s-types "needs" to thrive emotionally, chances are the relationship would crack and end or be repaired to where it was.




leadership527 -> RE: ^^Thriving S... Thriving Relationship^^ (6/2/2011 10:46:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
Yes he gives me certain things at certain times when I request them or when he feels I need them but he is not in any way catering to me.


Can you clarify, exactly, what IS happening if he is not catering to you?

Cater:
1-2 (involved food service... not relevant)
3. Provide with what is needed or required: "the school caters to children with learning difficulties"
4. Try to satisfy (a particular need or demand)

It seems to match the dictionary definitions flawlessly.




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