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ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
Today's college students are often advised to stay away from BA degrees. They are told that graduates with BA's are flipping burgers while those with Bachelor of Science degrees have great careers. A Bachelor of Science requires students to pass more science courses and a Bachelor of Arts requires several foreign language courses. Therefore, all Bachelor of Arts graduates are bilingual. I've lost count of the number of help wanted ads I've read stating bilingual is preferred or required. None of these ads were for restaraunt workers. So why are so many BA's flipping burgers if being bilingual is so important? Why are graduates with BS degrees that don't require foreign languages more successful than bilingual BA graduates?

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Today's college students are often advised to stay away from BA degrees. They are told that graduates with BA's are flipping burgers while those with Bachelor of Science degrees have great careers. A Bachelor of Science requires students to pass more science courses and a Bachelor of Arts requires several foreign language courses. Therefore, all Bachelor of Arts graduates are bilingual. I've lost count of the number of help wanted ads I've read stating bilingual is preferred or required. None of these ads were for restaraunt workers. So why are so many BA's flipping burgers if being bilingual is so important? Why are graduates with BS degrees that don't require foreign languages more successful than bilingual BA graduates?

My Bachelor of Science program required a foreign language. The difference between BA and BS programs is that a BS program requires more focused study, either the student mus choose a minor or at least take additional courses in the major.




If you want to make money go to trade school. If you wish to become educated then go to college.

In general BS degrees is taken to mean someone who applied themselves in college while a BA degree is viewed as someone who mostly took electives and did the minimum work needed for a degree.

What a crock of shit

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ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

FR

There are many schools with basketweaving electives in a B. Science curriculum.

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ORIGINAL: provfivetine

I'm not sure that BA's require a foreign language. That's news to me. Perhaps, many programs that issue a BA require 2 years or so of a foreign language to gain acceptance, but it doesn't seem to be too common to be mandated in the curriculum - at least from my experience.

Perhaps you need a little more experience?

Quite simply, the reason that the BA degree is losing value is because so many kids are obtaining it. Value is derived from scarcity.

So if they all start getting bs degrees those too will loose their value?


We don't need any more students graduating from the fields of the social sciences; we need more natural science majors (scientists, engineers, etc.)


Why?


Kids are often pressured to go to school, and they aren't mature enough at 17/18/19 years old


They can join the military at those ages. Should that be changed to relfect their lack of maturity?

to understand that going tens of thousands, or in some extreme cases, hundreds of thousands of dollars, into debt for a BA is a bad situation. Many would rather study the social sciences because it's a much easier field to study than the natural sciences.

Do you have any proof of this or is this just your uneducated opinion?

The liberal arts schools often churn out card carrying communists by the time that they're through with school,

Do you have any proof of this or is this some more of your uneducated mindless rhetoric?

since the social science departments are all bastions of cultural marxism


How about a little validation of your bullshit opinions.

- so they're even more confused upon graduation than they were going into school.

You seem to be the only one who is confused.

Additionally, to utilize a BA in your field of, say, history or sociology you often need a PhD. No one really cares that people have a bachelors degree in the liberal arts, because there's not much you can do in your field with it. There's a reason that so many kids with liberal arts degrees end up "flipping burgers" as you say. They have no marketable skills and aren't qualified to teach or get a job doing research, which is about all you can do with a social science major. And you'll need that PhD for those positions.


Since when does one need a phd to teach school. All one needs is a bachelors degree and a teaching certificate.


On the flip side, a bachelors in, say, aerospace, chemical, mechanical engineering - even if it's from a less than stellar institution - will likely get you a good paying job. I would argue that a BS from a "B" institution is, ceteris paribus, more valuable than a BA from an "A" institution.

Just like a high school diploma actually meant something back in the 50's and 60's, so too did a bachelors of arts actually mean something in the 70's, 80's and 90's, but now that so many people have these degrees, they are less valuable. To stand out now a days, you need a masters or professional degree.

Do you only open your mouth to change feet?

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Perhaps you need a little more experience?

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So if they all start getting bs degrees those too will loose their value?

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Why?

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They can join the military at those ages. Should that be changed to relfect their lack of maturity?

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Do you have any proof of this or is this just your uneducated opinion?

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Do you have any proof of this or is this some more of your uneducated mindless rhetoric? How about a little validation of your bullshit opinions.

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You seem to be the only one who is confused.

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Since when does one need a phd to teach school. All one needs is a bachelors degree and a teaching certificate.

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ORIGINAL: provfivetine

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Perhaps you need a little more experience?

Go find me a few programs that require foreign language as part of their curriculums and I'll retract my statement. Until then, your suffering from the same problem that you accuse me of. I'm sure you can google this and find a couple, but I'm unaware of this at a large-scale level.


OK http://collegeapps.about.com/od/theartofgettingaccepted/a/ForeignLanguage.htm

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So if they all start getting bs degrees those too will loose their value?

Yes.

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Why?

We need more production that comes from these fields if we want to maintain high standards of excellence in the sciences. Many of the natural science majors that come here are foreigners. Not that there's anything wrong with this, but Americans are falling behind in the sciences and technical fields. If the US and it's populace wants to keep up with the surge of productivity in India and China, then this will require an educated populace to carry it out.

I asked why the value of those science degrees would fall...the above does not answer anything.

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They can join the military at those ages. Should that be changed to relfect their lack of maturity?

Sure they can, but you're not understanding my point. Kids at that age don't understand the implications of massive debt.

But you feel that they understand the implications of joining the army ie: death or dismemberment etc.?

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Do you have any proof of this or is this just your uneducated opinion?

Sure. Here, here, here, here, here, here, and here.

Hmmm. let's try this again shall we?
Kids are often pressured to go to school, and they aren't mature enough at 17/18/19 years old to understand that going tens of thousands, or in some extreme cases, hundreds of thousands of dollars, into debt for a BA is a bad situation. Many would rather study the social sciences because it's a much easier field to study than the natural sciences.
That students go into debt for an education is hardly in question. The moronic uneducated statement of yours that I asked you to back up was your premis that social sciences are an easier field than the natural sciences.

Uneducated opinion? You're a joke. Regarding this point, I own you like a piece of property.

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Do you have any proof of this or is this some more of your uneducated mindless rhetoric? How about a little validation of your bullshit opinions.

Have you talked to any social science graduates? Are you honestly under the impression that the social science department at the universities aren't filled with cultural marxists? What a ridiculous thing to argue against. See: This, this, this, and this.

The bias in the jesus links you posted is pretty obvious.
You would'nt happen to have anything from a neutral source would you?

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You seem to be the only one who is confused.

Good argument. Provide empirical evidence to the contrary to show this. Until then, you suffer from the charges that you level against me.

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Since when does one need a phd to teach school. All one needs is a bachelors degree and a teaching certificate.

Sure, if you want to teach at the primary level, then maybe. There's huge competition for this though. Many teachers now-a-days, even at this level, are expected to have masters degrees. Again, this didn't use to be the case, but when the over-supply of BA's it now is.

Up through high school all that is required is a bachelors degree and a teaching credential.
To teach at a j.c. you need a masters and a credential.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx
OK http://collegeapps.about.com/od/theartofgettingaccepted/a/ForeignLanguage.htm

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I asked why the value of those science degrees would fall...the above does not answer anything.

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But you feel that they understand the implications of joining the army ie: death or dismemberment etc.?

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That students go into debt for an education is hardly in question. The moronic uneducated statement of yours that I asked you to back up was your premis that social sciences are an easier field than the natural sciences.

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The bias in the jesus links you posted is pretty obvious. You would'nt happen to have anything from a neutral source would you?

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Up through high school all that is required is a bachelors degree and a teaching credential.
To teach at a j.c. you need a masters and a credential.

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ORIGINAL: provfivetine

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx
OK http://collegeapps.about.com/od/theartofgettingaccepted/a/ForeignLanguage.htm

Read my original post. I specifically stated that many colleges require foreign language to gain acceptance, but not as part of their mandated curriculum. Your link proves nothing, and if anything, it just proves my point.

If you do not have the language as a prerequiset then it would have to be completed at the college before graduation...perhaps you should have read both pages of the cite I posted

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I asked why the value of those science degrees would fall...the above does not answer anything.

No you didn't. It's only now you are asking. They would fall because more people would have them. Value is derived from scarcity (I already stated this). If there is an oversupply of a given thing, then it's value is decreased. If there are more science majors out there, then then their value as a certain scientist will fall. Conversely, if there are not as many in existence, then their value will rise.

Could you tell us historically what the supply and demand picture has been like for techies for say the last 60 years? Do we currently have a shortage of scientific and tech types?

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But you feel that they understand the implications of joining the army ie: death or dismemberment etc.?

I didn't say that I feel anything about kids joining the military. You're the one that brought it up. But now that you mention it, yes I do think that young kids 17/18/19 years old don't look at these types of things from the perspective of more mature adults. Do you disagree?

That was my point. Do you agree that the age to sign a legal binding contract should be raised to say 21? That way the immature would not be allowed to contract for college debt or join the military.

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That students go into debt for an education is hardly in question. The moronic uneducated statement of yours that I asked you to back up was your premis that social sciences are an easier field than the natural sciences.

Social Sciences are largely subjective

I was unaware that there was any dispute over the date of the d day invasion, or the date of the dropping of the atomic bomb on hiroshima...did I not get the memo?


whereas the Natural Sciences are largely objective.

So that whole thing about hole flow has been settled? String theory is now accepted ? Global warming proponents and detractors have resolved their differences baised on subjective data?

For example, historians disagree all the time about what caused X and disagree to a larger extent as to how much weight should be put into each variable.

Do they disagree about verifiable facts?

The historian may say that fractional reserve banking contributed to the Great Depression,

That would be an economist the historian simply notes that it happened

but each historian is going to weight that differently - some may argue that it didn't play a role at all. A professor in the social sciences is (probably) not going to fail you because you disagree with them.

Probably...lol. A social science professor will fail you for not knowing your subject just like an O chem proffessor will.
You are not graded on opinion in the social sciences you are graded on how well you know your subject. If you had ever taken any history,philosophy,social anthropology,music or art classes you would know this.
Instead you are content to wallow in ignorance.


It's all about interpretation, subjectivity, and arguing a good case.

In an econ class if you are asked on the test to define capitalism and you make a case for socialism you will fail the test no matter how persuasive your arguement may be.

Why do you think that there are social science professors that disagree on everything, from fundamental topics to advanced theories. Generally speaking, the natural science professors don't disagree on fundamentals; the natural scientists don't have as much room for subjectivity. No chemist is going to argue that H2o is not water.

There is however much arguement about it's compresability. Which is a fundamental aspect of water.


There are laws, physics and mathematical models that must be learned in the natural sciences. They aren't subjective.

So our choice to use the base 10 instead of say base 2 was objective and not subjective?

They have to be learned and mastered. There isn't such a thing as "the laws of history" (despite what marxists professors will tell you).

Unless you feel that time is just a conspiracy to keep everything from happening all at once then there are absolute laws of history ...alexander preceeds jesus...jesus preceeds frank zappa and so forth

A student can party all the time and get completely blasted before going into a subjective social science exam. A student that must utilize advanced mathematics and physics, which the natural sciences require, cannot do that going into an objectively based test.

Contrary to your opinion social science exams are not any more subjective than an exam in the natural sciences.

There's a reason why they say "You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand this." No one says, "You don't have to be a sociologist to understand this."

"They" say a lot of stupid shit don't you think?

Do you deny that the social sciences are more subjective than the natural sciences?

In a history exam they do not ask how you felt about the voyages of columbus they ask when,where,what and why. All of which are in the text and there are no other correct answers.


Studying history, sociology, etc is much easier than studying nuclear engineering or astrophysics.

So you have done both and have degrees in both nuclear engineering,astrophysics and history,sociology and you are speaking with the voice of personal experience?

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The bias in the jesus links you posted is pretty obvious. You would'nt happen to have anything from a neutral source would you?

Yes. Do you disagree with the New York Times article that I sent linked as well? That's one link, and I was just pointing that out to show you that cultural marxism is abundant in the universities. Who cares that it's from a bible-thumper; all news sources contain biases. If you want to research how cultural marxism invaded the social science departments, then enroll in a class in the social sciences at your local college.


Do you not feel that the study of comparative systems is a good idea?

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Up through high school all that is required is a bachelors degree and a teaching credential.
To teach at a j.c. you need a masters and a credential.

Sure, it may be required, but students that have a masters degree would be accepted before those with bachelors degrees. Most of the teachers that have bachelors only are the more experienced folk that have been teaching for 20+ years. The younger generation won't be as fortunate.

My neice went to work straight out of college with a ba and a credential teaching high school, in southern california, that was five years ago. She has since picked up a masters but she is the only teacher in her high school with a masters.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

If you do not have the language as a prerequiset then it would have to be completed at the college before graduation...perhaps you should have read both pages of the cite I posted

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Could you tell us historically what the supply and demand picture has been like for techies for say the last 60 years? Do we currently have a shortage of scientific and tech types?

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That was my point. Do you agree that the age to sign a legal binding contract should be raised to say 21? That way the immature would not be allowed to contract for college debt or join the military.

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I was unaware that there was any dispute over the date of the d day invasion, or the date of the dropping of the atomic bomb on hiroshima...did I not get the memo?

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So that whole thing about hole flow has been settled? String theory is now accepted ? Global warming proponents and detractors have resolved their differences baised on subjective data?

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Do they disagree about verifiable facts?

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That would be an economist the historian simply notes that it happened

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Probably...lol. A social science professor will fail you for not knowing your subject just like an O chem proffessor will. You are not graded on opinion in the social sciences you are graded on how well you know your subject. If you had ever taken any history,philosophy,social anthropology,music or art classes you would know this. Instead you are content to wallow in ignorance.

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In an econ class if you are asked on the test to define capitalism and you make a case for socialism you will fail the test no matter how persuasive your arguement may be.

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There is however much arguement about it's compresability. Which is a fundamental aspect of water.

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So our choice to use the base 10 instead of say base 2 was objective and not subjective?

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Unless you feel that time is just a conspiracy to keep everything from happening all at once then there are absolute laws of history ...alexander preceeds jesus...jesus preceeds frank zappa and so forth

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Contrary to your opinion social science exams are not any more subjective than an exam in the natural sciences.

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"They" say a lot of stupid shit don't you think?

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In a history exam they do not ask how you felt about the voyages of columbus they ask when,where,what and why. All of which are in the text and there are no other correct answers.

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So you have done both and have degrees in both nuclear engineering,astrophysics and history,sociology and you are speaking with the voice of personal experience?

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Do you not feel that the study of comparative systems is a good idea?

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My neice went to work straight out of college with a ba and a credential teaching high school, in southern california, that was five years ago. She has since picked up a masters but she is the only teacher in her high school with a masters.

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I'm done debating this. It's getting ridiculous at this point, and I'm sure people reading this would agree.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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I'm done debating this. It's getting ridiculous at this point, and I'm sure people reading this would agree.

To quote harry callahan..."a mans got to know his limitations". You have obviously found yours.

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Today's college students are often advised to stay away from BA degrees.

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I have often wondered why MM is such a big NAFTA/Globalization cheerleader, quick to rush to the aid of his damsel whenever it is distressed. Maybe that's because he is an "arts" guy that doesn't live in the present day economic reality the science guys do. Altruism at work, you know.