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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 1:08:12 PM   
FelineFae


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Status: offline 		In the West, no one thinks of Shakira or Grace Kelly artfully pouring them a drink and engaging in intelligent conversation. Those western women just have jobs as performers. Because of their social prestige, they would not do something like pour a drink for another. That's what a waitress if for. And if they did, no one would expect them to be skilled at said task.

While there are higher arts unique to the Geisha, the tasks of artfully serving drinks and lively conversation are also expected of them. Such is a part of their complete identity.
These jobs are also expected of the Eastern hostesses, but that does not doesn't mean their jobs are the same. No more than a tour-guide is the same as a singer because they both use their voice for money.

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 1:10:21 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantMan

OK, I am banging my head against a wall here... so, here's the wiki-link...


The simple fact that you're using Wikipedia as your reference source destroys ALL of your credibility.  How about using a real source, like Sexuality in Greek and Roman Culture by Marilyn B. Skinner or Women in the Classical World by Elaine Fantham et. al.?  For references on the geisha, I have the benefit  of having a friend who lived in Japan.  I think Geisha of Gion by Mineko Iwasaki was on his short list but I'll have to check and get back to you.

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 1:12:14 PM   
DeviantMan


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Status: offline 		OK... Let me simple here...
I
Am
A
Greek
You think I know MY own History any less, or I'd give you a wiki-link just out of pseudo-credibility needs?
If you seriously believe this, you are insulting me!

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 1:12:27 PM   
FelineFae


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Status: offline 		i did mention my thoughts could be considered "perverse".

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 1:16:34 PM   
LadyConstanze


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Status: offline 		You may want to check out Life of Pericles (Plutarch) or Socrates Memories, Marilyn B. Skinner has a bit of an agenda, there are countless historic writings about the role of the hetaera and none of them links them to a prostitute, though of course technically you could argue that any woman who is paid by a man for her time is a prostitute, or that anybody who does for money that they would not do without pay would be a prostitute - i.e. most people who have a job....

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 1:26:58 PM   
FelineFae


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Status: offline 		If you asked the average American what a Geisha was, you know their answer would be tragically similar if you asked them what a Dominatrix was...
Younger Americans will also view exotic dancers with this same vantage. If your sexuality is any part of your livelyhood, you must be a whore.

What it is to be Geisha, we don't have that here. But if we did, what do you think comes closest ?

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 1:41:51 PM   
DeviantMan


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Status: offline 		Feline dear, you posed a rhetorical question, and set a base for a good debate. It's not your fault it went out of order. As to your question, neither the Geisha, nor the haetera figures would be fitting ANYTHING in our modern world... why? Because, the average woman of today, is as educated as any man, as able to rise in the hierarchy of our society, as any man, and is an equal to any man in all sorts. Which was not the case in either Feudal, Edo period Japan, or Ancient Greece.
There will never be another Geisha, or haetera role. Women are independent, equal beings, in the non-Kink world.

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 1:46:19 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Nope, you are mistaken something, the heteara were the highest ranking group,


Ok, this is from Sexuality in Greek and Roman Culture, page 98.  "Flute-girls, who by law could not receive as a fee more than 2 drachmas (6 obols) a night, were essential to a party, furnishing the music for singing and dancing." 
 
Now how does such a low price for a hetaera's services put her in the highest ranking/elite group?  It doesn't.  It does give her more status than a pornai (whore) but not at the level of an Emperor's companion.  

Further down the page: "Literary and pictorial evidence indicates that some [hetaerai] offered sexual services too, but others seem to have been respected professional artists (Lewis 2002: 95-7).  In short, then, a whore was paid by the deed, a hetaeera for an entire evening that might not necessarily include sex".

quote:

much like the concubines of Kings and Emperors, geishas however would sell their virginity to a protector - please tell me how that is different?


It isn't, but selling sex wasn't the primary purpose of a geisha and she wasn't considered a prostitute.  Hetaerai were classed as prostitutes, albeit high-end ones.  That, I think, is the most significant difference.

quote:

Hetaera is NOT a broad category, they were the elite, the rest of them were prostitutes of various levels, but like a geisha you would not pay a heteara for sex - or else every history teacher at university was lying through their teeth.


Lying, no, but mistaken?  Maybe.  Hetaera were paid for their services, which might include sex or might not, depending on the terms of the contract.  However, it was a possibility.  For geisha, sex was generally understood to be off the table. 
 
I will concede that the highest rank of hetaerai might have been comparable to geisha, but from my studies, I doubt it because of the differences in mentality.  I still maintain that drawing comparisons between such different cultures is chancy because the mental frames of reference vary too greatly to make it accurate. 

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 1:52:02 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantMan

OK... Let me simple here...
I
Am
A
Greek
You think I know MY own History any less, or I'd give you a wiki-link just out of pseudo-credibility needs?
If you seriously believe this, you are insulting me!


I don't care if you're Plato, himself.  Unless you can come up with a better argument and reliable facts to support it, I'm not going to accept that what you say has any weight.  Come to think of it, if you were Plato, you'd do a better job of debating.
 
Btw, my buddy recommends the following book for the beginner who wants to learn about traditional geisha:
 
"The Real Memoirs of Geisha". The Asian Mystique: Dragon Ladies, Geisha Girls, and Our Fantasies of the Exotic Orient. p. 218. ISBN 978-1586483944.

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Dark Muse
30 Fluffy Points
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Shadow Governess & Mean Girl
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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 1:55:08 PM   
DeviantMan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Nope, you are mistaken something, the heteara were the highest ranking group,


Ok, this is from Sexuality in Greek and Roman Culture, page 98.  "Flute-girls, who by law could not receive as a fee more than 2 drachmas (6 obols) a night, were essential to a party, furnishing the music for singing and dancing." 
 
Now how does such a low price for a hetaera's services put her in the highest ranking/elite group?  It doesn't.  It does give her more status than a pornai (whore) but not at the level of an Emperor's companion.  

Further down the page: "Literary and pictorial evidence indicates that some [hetaerai] offered sexual services too, but others seem to have been respected professional artists (Lewis 2002: 95-7).  In short, then, a whore was paid by the deed, a hetaeera for an entire evening that might not necessarily include sex".

quote:

much like the concubines of Kings and Emperors, geishas however would sell their virginity to a protector - please tell me how that is different?


It isn't, but selling sex wasn't the primary purpose of a geisha and she wasn't considered a prostitute.  Hetaerai were classed as prostitutes, albeit high-end ones.  That, I think, is the most significant difference.

quote:

Hetaera is NOT a broad category, they were the elite, the rest of them were prostitutes of various levels, but like a geisha you would not pay a heteara for sex - or else every history teacher at university was lying through their teeth.


Lying, no, but mistaken?  Maybe.  Hetaera were paid for their services, which might include sex or might not, depending on the terms of the contract.  However, it was a possibility.  For geisha, sex was generally understood to be off the table. 
 
I will concede that the highest rank of hetaerai might have been comparable to geisha, but from my studies, I doubt it because of the differences in mentality.  I still maintain that drawing comparisons between such different cultures is chancy because the mental frames of reference vary too greatly to make it accurate. 



Excuse me... "Greek and Roman culture"??????
Roman??????
Did you really study any of this, did you really research any of this?
Roman culture only borrowed scraps of the Hellenistic leftovers of Alexander's Empire, and has as much to do with the Classical Ancient Greece (Which, by the way was a couple centuries in the past, at the time), as modern Italy does.
And... flute girls? Please.... I won't even bother to debate any more
Oh, and another thing... Alexander, since I mentioned him, had his own personal haetera following him in his campaign... and not to give him quickies, or suck his dick... he was as queer as it gets.


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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 1:58:35 PM   
DeviantMan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantMan

OK... Let me simple here...
I
Am
A
Greek
You think I know MY own History any less, or I'd give you a wiki-link just out of pseudo-credibility needs?
If you seriously believe this, you are insulting me!


I don't care if you're Plato, himself.  Unless you can come up with a better argument and reliable facts to support it, I'm not going to accept that what you say has any weight.  Come to think of it, if you were Plato, you'd do a better job of debating.
 
Btw, my buddy recommends the following book for the beginner who wants to learn about traditional geisha:
 
"The Real Memoirs of Geisha". The Asian Mystique: Dragon Ladies, Geisha Girls, and Our Fantasies of the Exotic Orient. p. 218. ISBN 978-1586483944.


Thank you for proving Plato, and a shitload of boy-banger Ancient Greek daddy-looking dudes correct, when they said "All non Greeks are Barbarians". And, if it sounds cruel, or insulting... it's not my fault


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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 2:16:13 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantMan

Excuse me... "Greek and Roman culture"??????
Roman??????
Did you really study any of this, did you really research any of this?
Roman culture only borrowed scraps of the Hellenistic leftovers of Alexander's Empire, and has as much to do with the Classical Ancient Greece (Which, by the way was a couple centuries in the past, at the time), as modern Italy does.
And... flute girls? Please.... I won't even bother to debate any more
Oh, and another thing... Alexander, since I mentioned him, had his own personal haetera following him in his campaign... and not to give him quickies, or suck his dick... he was as queer as it gets.



Ok, nothing you've said in this post makes any sense or has anything to do with the topic except the part where you say you won't debate anymore.  Which is fine, because you're doing a crap job of it anyway.  Really, you've just confirmed my suspicion that you really don't know what you're talking about and are only trying to belabor the point to save face.  If you can muster up a rational argument supported by research, by all means let me know.  Until then, I have neither the time nor the desire to watch you bluster in a vain attempt to salve your wounded ego.

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Shadow Governess & Mean Girl
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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 2:26:53 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineFae

In the West, no one thinks of Shakira or Grace Kelly artfully pouring them a drink and engaging in intelligent conversation. Those western women just have jobs as performers.


When I dashed off a message to my buddy who lived in Japan asking for references re: geisha, he had this to say about the relationship between dancers and geisha:
 
"They would be considered actors/performers which were associated with loose morals and prostitution in Japan, too.  Not grace."
 
He has a degree in Japanese, so he had to study their history and culture as well as the language.  I think what he says about the attitudes of the Japanese toward performers/prostitutes vs. geisha says a lot about why it's so difficult to draw a comparison between geisha and anything in the Western world. 

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Grumpy Cat is my spirit animal.
Shadow Governess & Mean Girl
"There's something that doesn't make sense. Let's go and poke it with a stick."— The Doctor

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 2:33:56 PM   
LadyConstanze


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Status: offline 		OK, just for the record, Geishas were much much more dependent on their sponsors and men than Hetaeras and no do not take my word for it, get thee to a library and check it out.

You can't even compare Greek society with Roman society, fundamental differences here, Greek consisted of city states, when talking about Ancient Greek we are mainly talking about Athens, sometimes Sparta, which had a completely different society and where women actually were allowed to have property, unheard of in Athens unless they were Hetearas. You think Geishas were artists - Geishas were mainly educated in how to entertain and please men and highly dependent on a male protector. A Geisha's virginity was sold off by the "mother Geisha" or the madam, if anything Geisha's were much more dependent on men than Hetearas and enjoyed less liberties than Hetearas. To lump Hetearas in with common prostitutes or to claim that all prostitutes were Hetearas is just wrong and not having done research.

And on that happy note, I am off to the pub because this is really doing my head in!

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 2:34:08 PM   
DeviantMan


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Status: offline 		So, basically, we have an entire bibliography that backs my... how did you call it... oh yes... "bluster in a vain attempt to salve your wounded ego". Still, you reject it all, as lacking credibility... some of this bibliography, is directly from the time, works of Philosophers like Plato... or published researches from numerous European Universities... and, at the same time, you expect me to follow this one book you pose, as the only source of real historical accuracy.

Excuse me my dear, but I'm, not the one that is blustering in a vain attempt to salvage my wounded ego. Unless my wounded ego is giving me illusions, you are argueing against two different persons, of different age and gender, as well as location and level of education. Now, please, educate us savages, and explain how two different people say the same thing, they use different sources to back themselves up, and yet, they are both wrong, while you, so easily reject their opinion, and proclaim yourself as the only correct?

Yes, I know... it's just me and my wounded ego... tsk-tsk... us men and our ego...

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 2:38:00 PM   
0ldhen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineFae

i believe the difference between a stripper and an exotic dancer would be the difference between a Geisha and a hostess. Some of their work is similar, but the level of class and patronage are key roles.


Yuppers....I put myself through school as an exotic dancer. Every evening in our dressing rooms we would find, and be expected to read, The Post, the Journal, the local papers. Not end to end but enough to be able to converse with the gentleman that we sat with. Of course, and we are talking a long time ago, they paid between 16.00 and 500.00 dollars a drink for us for the privelage, well aware we were normally drinking grapejuice or water.

They could watch us perform for the cost of their drink but to talk to us cost a bit more, and I do mean TALK, no sex, no grabbing, that got you xpelled from the premises quickly and in an unfriendly manner.

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 2:43:55 PM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		You folks are also forgetting that geisha come in different rankings. The youngest, untrained would have sex with you. But their companionship isn't worth that much and doesn't cost so much. The older ones are there simply to talk and pour drinks. How many modern exotic dancers still have a career at 60+ years of age, and are paid more than the 20 somethings?

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 2:44:36 PM   
RedMagic1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineFae
Younger Americans will also view exotic dancers with this same vantage. If your sexuality is any part of your livelyhood, you must be a whore.

I'm not actually sure this is true, Mistress Fae. Women are groping each other on reality TV all the time now. Being an exotic dancer disqualifies women for major beauty contests, yes, but, other than that, unless you're running for office, who cares? I think an awful lot of women have flirted with adult jobs. Also, "burlesque" is an increasingly mainstream hobby, as is poledancing, for that matter.

Related: AV Idols in Japan now have far fewer barriers to going mainstream (keeping all clothes on), even though they start as models who take clothes off. Not that the US is going to follow tomorrow, of course.

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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 2:46:01 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

You may want to check out Life of Pericles (Plutarch) or Socrates Memories, Marilyn B. Skinner has a bit of an agenda, there are countless historic writings about the role of the hetaera and none of them links them to a prostitute, though of course technically you could argue that any woman who is paid by a man for her time is a prostitute, or that anybody who does for money that they would not do without pay would be a prostitute - i.e. most people who have a job....


I will do that.  However, Skinner's assertion that hetaera were prostitutes is backed up by in Women in the Classical World, written by Elaine Fantham, Helene Peet Foley, Natalie Boymel Kampen, Sarah B. Pomeroy, and H. Alan Shapiro. 

I don't think it's entirely accurate to say there are no historical references to hetaerai as prostitutes since there's a passage from Plutarch (translated by Hallet) included in the section on hetaerai (pg. 116).  The passage concerns Pericles' liason with a famous hetaera named Aspasia.  Plutarch states Aspasia "ran an establishment that was neither orderly nor respectable, seeing that she educated a group of female companions to become courtesans."  There are other mentions to historical references linking hetaerai with prostitutes throughout the section. 
 
I suppose you're right when you say it comes down to interpretation.

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Sylverë
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Shadow Governess & Mean Girl
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RE: Western Geisha ? - 6/2/2011 3:17:02 PM   
FelineFae


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Status: offline 		i'm not saying that i approve of this ideal, only that i see it too often.

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