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A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 2:44:02 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Whether or not you believe the OVERWHELMING scientific evidence about climate change or not, what is wrong with taking steps to clean up the air, water and oceans?

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RE: A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 3:20:24 PM   
thishereboi


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Status: offline 		Absolutely nothing. In fact I think things were much better in the old days when we took care of the planet because it was a good idea and not to line some asshats pockets.

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RE: A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 3:33:51 PM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Whether or not you believe the OVERWHELMING scientific evidence about climate change or not, what is wrong with taking steps to clean up the air, water and oceans?



Nothing wrong with taking steps to clean up air and water  However doing things that would astronomically drive up energy prices, cap and trade for example or doing anything drastic, unilaterally, when it supposedly will benefit the rest of the world too, most of us have a problem with.

  The other thing is climate change may be happening to a certain extent but we (most of us I think) don't believe it's man made. 30 or 40 years ago we were supposedly headed for an ice age. what ever happened to that ?


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RE: A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 3:37:39 PM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Whether or not you believe the OVERWHELMING scientific evidence about climate change or not, what is wrong with taking steps to clean up the air, water and oceans?


I tell you what... if you can pin-point why the following question is wonky, you'll have a clue as to why your question has gone largely unanswered thus far.

A question for liberals:  Despite OBVIOUS common-sense knowledge that a nanny-state government does not encourage a self-sufficient and resilient populace, what is wrong with able-bodied adults being responsible for taking care of themselves and expecting other able-bodied adults to do likewise?



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RE: A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 3:38:12 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		No one gets anything from climate change research or environmental protection policies in acted by the government, with the exception of Al Gore and his public speaking fees, if he actually keeps them (which he probably does to pay his bills) when they should be donated to the cause.

The people that make money are the ones that dont give a fuck about the environment and pollute the air and water.

Of course there are environmental fanatics that will fight about anything. I read once about a case brought by an environmental group to PREVENT an area that had been clear cut in the fifties to be replanted in fast growth trees for sustainable lumber production.

The area in question was covered in scrub brush that really did not provide a habitat for much more than rabbits and rodents. The plants that took over the area was not good for deer to graze on, etc.

By planting with the idea of sustainable lumber production, habitats for more animals would have been created.

The case was eventually thrown out when an environmentalist proved the natural benefit outweighed leaving the land as it was.

There is a problem with the practice of fracking natural gas fields, some areas where it has been done, well water is so high in natural gas that the water is actually flammable.

< Message edited by jlf1961 -- 6/4/2011 3:40:47 PM >

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 3:42:36 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Whether or not you believe the OVERWHELMING scientific evidence about climate change or not, what is wrong with taking steps to clean up the air, water and oceans?


I tell you what... if you can pin-point why the following question is wonky, you'll have a clue as to why your question has gone largely unanswered thus far.

A question for liberals:  Despite OBVIOUS common-sense knowledge that a nanny-state government does not encourage a self-sufficient and resilient populace, what is wrong with able-bodied adults being responsible for taking care of themselves and expecting other able-bodied adults to do likewise?






The problem is simple. It is cheaper for a company to pollute than to not pollute. Common sense.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to TreasureKY)
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RE: A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 3:46:49 PM   
TreasureKY


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From: Kentucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Whether or not you believe the OVERWHELMING scientific evidence about climate change or not, what is wrong with taking steps to clean up the air, water and oceans?


I tell you what... if you can pin-point why the following question is wonky, you'll have a clue as to why your question has gone largely unanswered thus far.

A question for liberals:  Despite OBVIOUS common-sense knowledge that a nanny-state government does not encourage a self-sufficient and resilient populace, what is wrong with able-bodied adults being responsible for taking care of themselves and expecting other able-bodied adults to do likewise?






The problem is simple. It is cheaper for a company to pollute than to not pollute. Common sense.


I didn't think you'd get it.

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RE: A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 3:47:37 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Whether or not you believe the OVERWHELMING scientific evidence about climate change or not, what is wrong with taking steps to clean up the air, water and oceans?


I tell you what... if you can pin-point why the following question is wonky, you'll have a clue as to why your question has gone largely unanswered thus far.

A question for liberals:  Despite OBVIOUS common-sense knowledge that a nanny-state government does not encourage a self-sufficient and resilient populace, what is wrong with able-bodied adults being responsible for taking care of themselves and expecting other able-bodied adults to do likewise?


And shouldn't there be a mechanism in place to make those people with the ability to impact the lives of others in significant ways, corporate executives for instance, behave responsibly?

The problem with all libertarian and Randian nonsense of this sort is the obvious problem that everyone will not act in the best interests of mankind.

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RE: A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 3:54:39 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Whether or not you believe the OVERWHELMING scientific evidence about climate change or not, what is wrong with taking steps to clean up the air, water and oceans?


I tell you what... if you can pin-point why the following question is wonky, you'll have a clue as to why your question has gone largely unanswered thus far.

A question for liberals:  Despite OBVIOUS common-sense knowledge that a nanny-state government does not encourage a self-sufficient and resilient populace, what is wrong with able-bodied adults being responsible for taking care of themselves and expecting other able-bodied adults to do likewise?






The problem is simple. It is cheaper for a company to pollute than to not pollute. Common sense.


I didn't think you'd get it.




Look, before Environmental Protection legislation was ever passed, companies did the simplest thing they could, dump untreated waste into rivers and lakes, pumped out tons of polluting gases from smoke stacks. Or have you forgotten Love Canal NY or Times Beach MO? Both places had to be evacuated and abandoned due to the pollution of the ground, and ground water. All due to untreated waste being dumped with no regulations.


So, what part of that do YOU not get?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to TreasureKY)
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RE: A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 4:07:38 PM   
TreasureKY


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From: Kentucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Look, before Environmental Protection legislation was ever passed, companies did the simplest thing they could, dump untreated waste into rivers and lakes, pumped out tons of polluting gases from smoke stacks. Or have you forgotten Love Canal NY or Times Beach MO? Both places had to be evacuated and abandoned due to the pollution of the ground, and ground water. All due to untreated waste being dumped with no regulations.

So, what part of that do YOU not get?


You STILL did not get it.  But don't feel too bad; DomKen didn't get it, either.

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RE: A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 4:48:09 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		1. There is no overwhelming evidence for A GW. I don't know anybody who doesnt think that there isnt ANY GW, just as I dont know anybody who doesnt think the earth has gone through cooling and warming cycles for billions of years.
2. It is not cheaper for a company to pollute if you hold them responsible for cleanup.
3. There is nothing wrong with cleaning up pollution.
4. There is nothing wrong with reasonable regulations that avoid further pollution.
5. CO2 is not a pollutant.

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RE: A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 4:49:45 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


The problem with all libertarian and Randian nonsense of this sort is the obvious problem that everyone will not act in the best interests of mankind.


The obvious problem with that statement is that libertarianism obviously doesnt assume they will.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 6/4/2011 4:50:24 PM >

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RE: A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 4:50:27 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Look, before Environmental Protection legislation was ever passed, companies did the simplest thing they could, dump untreated waste into rivers and lakes, pumped out tons of polluting gases from smoke stacks. Or have you forgotten Love Canal NY or Times Beach MO? Both places had to be evacuated and abandoned due to the pollution of the ground, and ground water. All due to untreated waste being dumped with no regulations.

So, what part of that do YOU not get?


You STILL did not get it.  But don't feel too bad; DomKen didn't get it, either.




I am under the impression you think the government should not pass regulations that would force companies to act in an environmentally responsible manner since that would be too much government intruding into the lives of individuals and companies.

However, I would like to remind you that we have tried that in the past and it DID NOT FUCKING WORK.

As of November 29, 2010, there were 1280 Superfund sites on the National Priorities List in the United States. In case you do not realize the simple fact that the US government is paying to clean up those polluted areas where the companies responsible no longer exist, as for the other sites, the company has to pay part of the cleanup, but a large part of that is still covered under the superfund.

Now since companies have a poor record for acting in an environmentally responsible manner, what do you propose, let them continue to act in such a way until the planet is too polluted for us to live on?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to TreasureKY)
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RE: A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 5:00:20 PM   
ladyneedshelp


Posts: 78
Joined: 4/18/2011
Status: offline 		I do not believe global warming is more than a natural fluxation of the earths climate. As a previous poster said in the 70's the scientists (includint the present science czar) were bemoaning that we were going into an ice age.....it was gonna freeze as far down as NYC!! We have been keeping detailed records on the climate world wide for less than a hundred years. And we are to believe that suddendenly we are spirling out of control? past evidence shows this world has gone thru several warming and cooling periods. NOW suddenly this time it is caused by man.....in a hundred years the US and Eur. have industerlized and destroyed the planet. Come on be real!

And you truely gonna believe dear ole gore who lives in mansions. That use more elect in a month than I will use in a year and rides around in his limo and flies around the world in his private jet(an older one and one of the worst carbon foot prints of all the private jets). He proposed the concept of buying carbon credits to off set ur footprint....and guess who owned the first company? Meanwhile. He wants u to live in smaller houses and drive smaller cars....better yet take public transportation....no.......the best.....walk or bike.

The science czar (and many of his progressive friends) wants to de-industeralize America because we are the worst offenders of all. (I think they may be succeding)

Does this mean I am aginst businesses being regulated to be sure they handle their waste approperately? NO. But I am aginst the president and his progressive friends setting out to tax or regulate the oil and coal companies out of existence (yes obama said that) and using a false theroy to justify it is not nearly as bad as all the people who fall for it! (eyes roll)


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RE: A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 5:01:59 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

You STILL did not get it.  But don't feel too bad; DomKen didn't get it, either.



I think what Treasure is getting at is that you dont have to follow on party or the other to cause enviromental damage. I am sure that politics doesnt get in the way of how some firms operate.

As for the evidence being overwhelming, I am not convinced that some parties dont over exagerate the case. In my view, these wild stories about the earth ending in x number of years are scare tactics that only muddy the waters of genuine debate.

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RE: A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 5:07:49 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
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From: Kentucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I am under the impression you think the government should not pass regulations that would force companies to act in an environmentally responsible manner since that would be too much government intruding into the lives of individuals and companies.


Really?  And what on earth has given you that impression?

Perhaps instead of relying on your intuition and emotions, you should read exactly what I wrote.  If you ever figure it out and make the appropriate corrections, then... and only then, we might be able to have a meaningful dialog on the issue of clean environment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I think what Treasure is getting at is that you dont have to follow on party or the other to cause enviromental damage. I am sure that politics doesnt get in the way of how some firms operate.

As for the evidence being overwhelming, I am not convinced that some parties dont over exagerate the case. In my view, these wild stories about the earth ending in x number of years are scare tactics that only muddy the waters of genuine debate.


You, my dear man, are close.  Compared to jlf1961 and DomKen, closer by light-years.


< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 6/4/2011 5:11:02 PM >

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RE: A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 5:07:54 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

, with the exception of Al Gore and his public speaking fees, if he actually keeps them (which he probably does to pay his bills) when they should be donated to the cause.



That isnt the "Al Gore" exception. He DOES claim to donate his public speaking fees. The exception is that he DOESNT donate profits from his millions of dollars of investments in "Green companies". And I personally don't have a problem with a private businessman doing what he can to promote his business and keeping the profits, even to the point of exaggerating the need for and benefits of his product. Caveat emptor.

Where I DO have a problem is when the government steps in and subsidizes that business and/or passes unnecessary and ineffective regulations that promote those businesses.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 5:20:15 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

30 or 40 years ago we were supposedly headed for an ice age. what ever happened to that ?

Stop repeating this horseshit.


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RE: A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 5:31:48 PM   
kdsub


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I thought...and I may be wrong...that conservatives were not against clean air standards reducing carbon dioxide emissions but were against treaties that did not require the same commitment across the board.

Butch

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RE: A question for conservatives. - 6/4/2011 5:51:08 PM   
outhere69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ladyneedshelp

I do not believe global warming is more than a natural fluxation of the earths climate. As a previous poster said in the 70's the scientists (includint the present science czar) were bemoaning that we were going into an ice age.....it was gonna freeze as far down as NYC!! We have been keeping detailed records on the climate world wide for less than a hundred years. And we are to believe that suddendenly we are spirling out of control? past evidence shows this world has gone thru several warming and cooling periods. NOW suddenly this time it is caused by man.....in a hundred years the US and Eur. have industerlized and destroyed the planet. Come on be real!


1) '70s ice age myth debunked here.

2) We have climatological data for millions of years, from fossils (oldest) and ice cores.

3) Northern Alaska communities with several thousand years of history are suddenly finding that the reduction in pack ice is taking a terrible hit on their hunting traditions, in addition to eroding beaches and shoreline so much that entire villages have had to be relocated.  The ice is coming later, melting sooner, and not thick enough when it's there.  Their underground permafrost storage has thawed out.

4) Why is cap and trade good enough for sulfur emissions, but not carbon dioxide emissions?

5) I'm surprised that there isn't more concern about resource extraction in the NW Territories and AK, given the dependence on ice roads for supply.  Could make for big problems in Prudhoe and along the pipeline since the permafrost is melting more than when they were built, in addition to any new development up there.

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