The Evil of Man (Full Version)

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DeviantlyD -> The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 2:24:08 AM)

A long while back I remember seeing an interview with Denise Brown. She is the sister of Nicole Simpson (O.J. Simpson's ex-wife), who was viciously murdered. One part of the interview struck a chord with me and I can't help think about it now and again, especially when the news offers up some story about a violent situation. Here is an excerpt from that interview.


Denise says helping other women has helped her deal with her own anger at Simpson, at lead prosecutor Marcia Clark, even at God.

Brown: "After Nicole was murdered. I was so angry with God. I thought, how could you do this? How could you let this happen?"

She says her mother suggested that she see a minister for spiritual counseling.

Brown: "And he told me one sentence. He says, ‘Denise,’ he said, ‘It's not God's doing. It's the evil of man.’ And as soon as he said that, a load just lifted off my shoulders."




Doesn't it strike you, profoundly, how cruel we human beings can be towards each other? Don't you wish we could be more understanding, more compassionate to one another?




Aneirin -> RE: The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 3:27:26 AM)

When we finally understand that we are our own worst enemy, then we can start making moves to becoming anything other than the savages we are. We have to take a critical view of our own selves, not the selves of others, always the others you understand and when we describe others, we ignore the fact that we are the others, but we pass blame all the time.




DeviantlyD -> RE: The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 3:41:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

When we finally understand that we are our own worst enemy, then we can start making moves to becoming anything other than the savages we are. We have to take a critical view of our own selves, not the selves of others, always the others you understand and when we describe others, we ignore the fact that we are the others, but we pass blame all the time.


I would agree with most of that except the understanding of others part. I confess, I do not understand others and what motivates their greed and selfish behaviours, amongst other things. For example, I don't understand what motivates a Bernard Madoff. How could he be so cruel to all of those he stole from? And I don't say I am without my own form of selfishness. I am a frail, fallible human being. But I aspire to be better. There are far too many on this planet who do not, who see only with a limited vision. It makes me sad for humanity.





theGuideGoddess -> RE: The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 3:53:44 AM)

Introspection is a very good thing. However greed is at the root of the aforementioned things. Greed is an illness not all suffer with, but are caused to suffer from.

It is the attorney's which appall me as they facilitate so many travesties with their morally/ethically void greed.




DeviantlyD -> RE: The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 4:00:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: theGuideGoddess

Introspection is a very good thing. However greed is at the root of the aforementioned things. Greed is an illness not all suffer with, but are caused to suffer from.

It is the attorney's which appall me as they facilitate so many travesties with their morally/ethically void greed.



They are not the only ones. I used to work in broadcasting. At one time, a reporter was working on a story of a young single mother whose body had been chopped up and the torso put inside of a suitcase, which had been the first (and I believe only) part of her body to be found. The reporter came in, all excited because he had an exclusive interview with a family member. His concern wasn't for the children of this woman, who were now without a mother, nor was his concern for this woman's other family members who were devastated over how her life ended. His concern was the exclusivity of his interview. It was so cold-hearted. There was no compassion there and I wondered if he ever gave this woman any form of consideration beyond being a news story.




Aneirin -> RE: The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 4:01:13 AM)

That is why I believe human constructs like religion and politics only act as a justification for the things we in our hearts would question, but because of the existence of these constructs and others, we can act outside of ourselves, and give ourselves licence to be what we wouldn't normally be, and when we are caught out, we can blame the constructs not ourselves, which has the habit of making us feel absolved of blame, again the others.

Sometimes I ask of myself what is the purpose of the constructs we create, is it so we can act outside of ourselves and be something different from ourselves, an experience maybe, or a form of parity in cases where we are uncertain of ourselves, a fantasy even to escape to away from ourselves and that dependant on how we view ourselves.

But one thing is certain everything that befalls us is of our own making, somewhere down the line we allowed it to happen, so what happens is our own fault not any others or any construct we created or allowed to exist in our lives.




DeviantlyD -> RE: The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 4:13:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

That is why I believe human constructs like religion and politics only act as a justification for the things we in our hearts would question, but because of the existence of these constructs and others, we can act outside of ourselves, and give ourselves licence to be what we wouldn't normally be, and when we are caught out, we can blame the constructs not ourselves, which has the habit of making us feel absolved of blame, again the others.

Sometimes I ask of myself what is the purpose of the constructs we create, is it so we can act outside of ourselves and be something different from ourselves, an experience maybe, or a form of parity in cases where we are uncertain of ourselves, a fantasy even to escape to away from ourselves and that dependant on how we view ourselves.

But one thing is certain everything that befalls us is of our own making, somewhere down the line we allowed it to happen, so what happens is our own fault not any others or any construct we created or allowed to exist in our lives.


I find your first paragraph so interesting because it relates to something I experienced many years ago.

At the time I was going through what I would describe as a "spiritual crisis". I began to wonder if any form of power (described as God in most religions) even existed. I examined it more as to how it pertained to me. If there was no afterlife, if there was no God, I could behave in any way I pleased (Within the confines of the law, given that life certainly would be less useful and more unhappy being locked in jail.) To make a long story short, I realized that I could only live in a way that felt right to me - regardless of whether or not God existed. That helped me tremendously to move forward. From then on I realized if I listened to my inner voice, it would point me in the right direction. It isn't always easy to hear that inner voice, but I do try. So...in contrast to those you describe in your sentence/paragraph, I will not blame anyone else for my doings. I see what you mean though...there are many who are hypocrites in this way. But not all who follow a religion, or what have you, will place the blame on their religion and so I cannot agree that this is the sole purpose of religion. Politics? *sigh* That is a beast that has definitely altered from its origins. How did it become an entity on its own, rather than a tool to be used? (If that makes sense.)




Kirata -> RE: The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 4:16:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

I am a frail, fallible human being. But I aspire to be better. There are far too many on this planet who do not, who see only with a limited vision.

I'm so glad you said this. When people announce to the world how much broader their vision is than so many of their fellows, it gives me the warm fuzzies to be in the presence of such humility. Thank you. Thank you again.

K.




theGuideGoddess -> RE: The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 4:30:40 AM)

[/quote]

They are not the only ones. I used to work in broadcasting. At one time, a reporter was working on a story of a young single mother whose body had been chopped up and the torso put inside of a suitcase, which had been the first (and I believe only) part of her body to be found. The reporter came in, all excited because he had an exclusive interview with a family member. His concern wasn't for the children of this woman, who were now without a mother, nor was his concern for this woman's other family members who were devastated over how her life ended. His concern was the exclusivity of his interview. It was so cold-hearted. There was no compassion there and I wondered if he ever gave this woman any form of consideration beyond being a news story.
[/quote]

It is a symptom of the me society that is so prevalent today.....without consideration of others. I often ask people: Have you really ever stopped to consider the effects of your behavior on others?




theGuideGoddess -> RE: The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 4:36:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
But one thing is certain everything that befalls us is of our own making, somewhere down the line we allowed it to happen, so what happens is our own fault not any others or any construct we created or allowed to exist in our lives.



Let me see if I am following your thought process here: Bernie Madoff's victims: the victim's fault? The Barrel Killer's victims: their own fault? Nicole Simpson? (And I am aware of thousands of women who wear or have worn her same shoes and end) It's really her/their own fault? Sorry....does not compute. Evil things can and do happen TO people where it is absolutely not their own fault. How about the epidemic of child abuse and molestation that is rampant today...oh yeah....I know...it really is the child's fault. Perhaps your statement requires clarity or that is not what you meant. But that is how I interpreted it.




Rule -> RE: The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 4:41:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD
I do not understand others and what motivates their greed and selfish behaviours, amongst other things. For example, I don't understand what motivates a Bernard Madoff. How could he be so cruel to all of those he stole from?

That is easy: such persons are without a conscience.




Rule -> RE: The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 4:45:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: theGuideGoddess
It is the attorney's which appall me as they facilitate so many travesties with their morally/ethically void greed.

Attorneys often are without a conscience too. That is why many of them study law, for having no inherent conscience to direct them, they require the external direction of laws to function.




Aneirin -> RE: The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 4:50:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

That is why I believe human constructs like religion and politics only act as a justification for the things we in our hearts would question, but because of the existence of these constructs and others, we can act outside of ourselves, and give ourselves licence to be what we wouldn't normally be, and when we are caught out, we can blame the constructs not ourselves, which has the habit of making us feel absolved of blame, again the others.

Sometimes I ask of myself what is the purpose of the constructs we create, is it so we can act outside of ourselves and be something different from ourselves, an experience maybe, or a form of parity in cases where we are uncertain of ourselves, a fantasy even to escape to away from ourselves and that dependant on how we view ourselves.

But one thing is certain everything that befalls us is of our own making, somewhere down the line we allowed it to happen, so what happens is our own fault not any others or any construct we created or allowed to exist in our lives.


I find your first paragraph so interesting because it relates to something I experienced many years ago.

At the time I was going through what I would describe as a "spiritual crisis". I began to wonder if any form of power (described as God in most religions) even existed. I examined it more as to how it pertained to me. If there was no afterlife, if there was no God, I could behave in any way I pleased (Within the confines of the law, given that life certainly would be less useful and more unhappy being locked in jail.) To make a long story short, I realized that I could only live in a way that felt right to me - regardless of whether or not God existed. That helped me tremendously to move forward. From then on I realized if I listened to my inner voice, it would point me in the right direction. It isn't always easy to hear that inner voice, but I do try. So...in contrast to those you describe in your sentence/paragraph, I will not blame anyone else for my doings. I see what you mean though...there are many who are hypocrites in this way. But not all who follow a religion, or what have you, will place the blame on their religion and so I cannot agree that this is the sole purpose of religion. Politics? *sigh* That is a beast that has definitely altered from its origins. How did it become an entity on its own, rather than a tool to be used? (If that makes sense.)



Perhaps it was meant that we were to behave in such a way as within the confines of the law, but what law and whose law, for much of law has been created with religion and politics in mind. Thou shall't not kill, excellent, although a heathen of sorts, I agree with this and this because it is morally right, killing others is wrong and in the great game of things, killing others is immoral there can be no justification, which then brings me to the act of war, where somehow the moral guidance goes wrong, as killing is seen as ok to achieve one's ends, which as usual are political failings, failures of diplomacy be that religious or political.

But why has our constructs become so powerful, well that can either be we have lost faith in ourselves to define what is right and what is wrong or we have allowed the constructs to gain power via those that saw them as a useful tool for their own enrichment. But what sort of person can do that, well, from my own understanding, all it takes is charisma to gain others attention and then the rest may follow. ( Why I always mistrust the salesman)

As to the inner voice, or the inner voices, perhaps illustrated well in the old cartoons, the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other, there indicating we are guided by both good and evil, or good and evil as we individually see it for everyone is different and it is this difference in people that should be the parity we draw from, not the charisma of one or a few.

I rely much on the inner voice and that because of my self defined spiritiuality, but I do not always follow it to the letter for it can be a trickster at times and I do see it very much as the innocent child within that needs to learn through me, so I treat it with the logic of the situation and quite often we agree to something in between, for my inner voice is my parity, not the constructs as others dictate them to me.

But as to getting it wrong, well, we are only human, and it is said we learn from our mistakes, which it is a pity when we act through the constructs, we do not, so I personally question their value as consistantly getting it wrong tells me they are either doing it wrong, i.e. not learning or it is the intent to cause evil and that possibly by those charismatic few who have glibly conned us into believing they are the or know the way to the saviour.

Perhaps as we tutor children to become adults the question should be asked, are we qualified to teach a child to become an adult when to all intents and purposes we are all children still, and that indicated by the way we are in this world, for much of what is happening, could be called childish. If we haven't grown up, matured so to speak, how can we tutor those that depend on us, for we haven't been here that long either.




Aneirin -> RE: The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 5:14:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: theGuideGoddess


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
But one thing is certain everything that befalls us is of our own making, somewhere down the line we allowed it to happen, so what happens is our own fault not any others or any construct we created or allowed to exist in our lives.



Let me see if I am following your thought process here: Bernie Madoff's victims: the victim's fault? The Barrel Killer's victims: their own fault? Nicole Simpson? (And I am aware of thousands of women who wear or have worn her same shoes and end) It's really her/their own fault? Sorry....does not compute. Evil things can and do happen TO people where it is absolutely not their own fault. How about the epidemic of child abuse and molestation that is rampant today...oh yeah....I know...it really is the child's fault. Perhaps your statement requires clarity or that is not what you meant. But that is how I interpreted it.



Yes, it is obvious you do not understand my thought process, but what you do have to ask yourself, is all these examples you quoted, and I don't know the details nor remember them, as cruel people I try to erase such from my memory to fill it with the people that do good, what did they have in common prior to their discovery, what made them so successful in their acts?

As to child molestation that unfortunately is and has been a human frailty from perhaps the beginning of mankind, but it is only now we are seeing it for the evil it is. Perhaps as it has been with us from perhaps the dawn of mankind, it is in our current make up and those that do moleste, were they molested or did they witness the like, as we all know first impressions do last if not acted upon and as to that, how much as people do we actually care what goes on behind closed doors, do we wait until the aftermath or do we worry about the possibility. But one thing that does come across strongly with those that moleste, they do so, because they can and convince themselves of their right, the act of power over others is a strong component.

But where does the need to have power over others come from, what enables that need, perhaps that should be a pertinent question ? Simply I am because that is me will not do, there has to have been something that makes persons do what others see as wrong.

The church, well they are only people, it is us that elevated people to positions where they should be beyond reproach, perhaps we were unwise or the elevated were not worthy, but as constructs grow in size they often get watered down with the unsuitable.




DeviantlyD -> RE: The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 5:17:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

But why has our constructs become so powerful, well that can either be we have lost faith in ourselves to define what is right and what is wrong or we have allowed the constructs to gain power via those that saw them as a useful tool for their own enrichment. But what sort of person can do that, well, from my own understanding, all it takes is charisma to gain others attention and then the rest may follow. ( Why I always mistrust the salesman)


Hmmm...that sounds suspiciously like how the anti-Christ is described. ;)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
As to the inner voice, or the inner voices, perhaps illustrated well in the old cartoons, the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other, there indicating we are guided by both good and evil, or good and evil as we individually see it for everyone is different and it is this difference in people that should be the parity we draw from, not the charisma of one or a few.


For me there is only a single voice.

And yes, I agree, we are all different. But then again, we all have so many similarities too. I think at our base, we all want the same things, such as happiness, a nice place to live, good health, people in our lives to love, etc. I think I have expressed this sentiment elsewhere on collarchat, although I don't recall where. But I can see your point: embrace our differences.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
But as to getting it wrong, well, we are only human, and it is said we learn from our mistakes, which it is a pity when we act through the constructs, we do not, so I personally question their value as consistantly getting it wrong tells me they are either doing it wrong, i.e. not learning or it is the intent to cause evil and that possibly by those charismatic few who have glibly conned us into believing they are the or know the way to the saviour.


But not everyone acts through those constructs you describe. Yes, many do, but it's too general to say all of us do it. I agree, some people never learn those lessons. Sometimes it's this inability to learn...my personal belief is that this inability comes from not looking outside one's self and only seeing the "me" side of things.

Who are the charismatic few? Are you speaking of religious leaders?

Gee, to read your take on it, I would get the impression mankind is simply doomed. I guess despite my sadness for humanity, I am still hopeful. I know there are some very good people in the world.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Perhaps as we tutor children to become adults the question should be asked, are we qualified to teach a child to become an adult when to all intents and purposes we are all children still, and that indicated by the way we are in this world, for much of what is happening, could be called childish. If we haven't grown up, matured so to speak, how can we tutor those that depend on us, for we haven't been here that long either.


Well, in terms of guiding children, there really isn't a whole lot of choice there. We can only do the best we can and instill the life lessons we have learned. Sometimes I think children, despite their parents, can grow into wonderful adults. It isn't always true, but I know it does happen. :) Hence, I have hope.




Aneirin -> RE: The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 5:43:44 AM)

Yes, as you say I believe we may be doomed, and that I agree with as those who have the power also have their fingers on devastating fire power and that to me is the worry, for there are many who for no better reason enjoy war, enjoy the act of it a game to them, especially those not in the front line where the real danger is, for front line duties have a rather good effect as to modifying a soldiers conscience as to the realities of war, it did me, and I can only judge from my own experience.

But for the front line soldier, why is it they fight and kill, they are paid to, they are in defence of their freedom, they are told to, they are brainwashed into ? Why ? Take soldiers, strip them of their arms and insignia and what have you got, just people and what do those people all have in common, the very same as each other, for they are the pawns in the game, sacrificial for higher powers that do not see the actualities and only reap the benefits. Constructs again, flags and banners and notions of country, tell me what sort of country sends it's young to die so the old may get older and die. As in doing so, we are not only tithing our young, but tithing our future as survivors come back damaged.

But I am hoping against all hopes that a movement will arise that seeks to ban war to the evils of mankind, make war illegal and there punishable, punishment for those that incite it and punishment via freedom being removed not killing or else we will become those who we punish. In order to be better, we have to act better. This is where I believe the war against the war mongers can be fought with the pen, or rather the keyboard and I am truly hoping the pen is indeed mightier than the sword, for people as a traditional uprising demanding change will be treated as an opposable enemy by those with their fingers on the firepower.

Perhaps humanity has come of age, we have developed planet destroying weapons, but we have also developed for the first time in history world communication, perhaps the war has already begun those that wish to communicate with their like world wide and there see the one time controllers exactly for what they are, which also might be one of the reasons why conspiracy theories are abound, people are starting to wake up to the constructs that have gotten out of hand.

But what is the cause of it all, why are we at it seems constant war, question that and then maybe we might find the truth is, we are at war with ourselves as the others will always be us in whatever theatre of war.

Weapons are only tools, it is people who are the problem, rip us down to our basics and then perhaps we might see where we have gone wrong.




SilverMark -> RE: The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 6:55:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: theGuideGoddess

Introspection is a very good thing. However greed is at the root of the aforementioned things. Greed is an illness not all suffer with, but are caused to suffer from.

It is the attorney's which appall me as they facilitate so many travesties with their morally/ethically void greed.


Yet if you were falsely accused of a crime, you would want as good of legal representation as is available.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 9:41:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

A long while back I remember seeing an interview with Denise Brown. She is the sister of Nicole Simpson (O.J. Simpson's ex-wife), who was viciously murdered. One part of the interview struck a chord with me and I can't help think about it now and again, especially when the news offers up some story about a violent situation. Here is an excerpt from that interview.


Denise says helping other women has helped her deal with her own anger at Simpson, at lead prosecutor Marcia Clark, even at God.

Brown: "After Nicole was murdered. I was so angry with God. I thought, how could you do this? How could you let this happen?"

She says her mother suggested that she see a minister for spiritual counseling.

Brown: "And he told me one sentence. He says, ‘Denise,’ he said, ‘It's not God's doing. It's the evil of man.’ And as soon as he said that, a load just lifted off my shoulders."




Doesn't it strike you, profoundly, how cruel we human beings can be towards each other? Don't you wish we could be more understanding, more compassionate to one another?


Conflating the butchery of one person with a societal lack of understanding and compassion makes the thread a non-starter.




Termyn8or -> RE: The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 10:25:07 AM)

"Attorneys often are without a conscience too."

Lawyers MUST set their conscience aside, it's in the rule book. Even the guilty deserve proper representation. Working for years under those conditions, I wonder how many of us could maintain our moral mettle.

A: So what happened ?
C: I did this and that and they did that and then I did that.
A: So you did it then.
C: Yes, and I want to get out of it.

It is that simple. A conviction can be overturned if a lawyer does not adequately represent the client, whether guilty or not. In the same way, CEOs who move plants to China need to set aside their patriotism, for a greater loyalty to their stockholders.

So really what this means is that greed and selfishness have become institutionalized.

Back to your regularly scheduled program.

T^T




lockedaway -> RE: The Evil of Man (6/5/2011 10:31:40 AM)

Exactly.  Often times the attorney does not defend the "man" but the man's rights under the Constitution.  And that is how it is supposed to be.

Sure, there is a lot of miserable conduct that falls under the ambit of "zealous advocacy" and I often find that the attorneys and their clients are extremely well suited to one another.  A scumbag of a person is going to find a scumbag of a lawyer otherwise he won't get the kind of representation he is looking for.




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