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juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/8/2011 8:37:36 PM)

My mom is on hydrocodone for pain management. They have her take urine tests every so often (without warning) to show she isn't abusing them. She is not an addict, and they treat her like one.



LinnaeaBorealis -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/8/2011 8:42:44 PM)

It's the C.Y.A. method of medical care these days. BAH!!!



LadyPact -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/8/2011 8:43:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
The problem is the first amendment


quote:

Summary

The trend of current case law shows that forcing a prisoner or probationer to attend A.A. or N.A. or other religiously centered rehabilitation program is increasingly seen as a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Courts from the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 11th Circuits have all explicitly or implicitly ruled that this is true. In order to establish such a claim, prisoners must generally show three things: (1) that the program is religious; (2) that if they do not attend the program they will either (a) lose some benefit they are otherwise entitled to or (b) be subject to some detriment or punishment; and (3) that there is no secular alternative available.
http://www.ffrf.org/faq/state-church/court-ordered-participation-in-a.a/


I don't see that as an issue.  The literature itself states that it is a spiritual, not a religious program. 



juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/8/2011 8:47:28 PM)

quote:

I don't see that as an issue.  The literature itself states that it is a spiritual, not a religious program. 


Some people are atheists, and the court should not be mandating them to be spiritual or associate with the spiritual.. therein lies the problem.

I have a major issue with over half of the steps because they involve god on some level...

Yes, we have the right to be free of god, in other words, we have the right to say we do not want god in our lives on any level.



hausboy -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/8/2011 9:31:05 PM)

Thanks for posting Linnaea.

I could not have said it better.  I'm also an Agnostic-- and just a few weeks away from celebrating 19 years clean & sober-- AA provided me with the tools and support I needed to help me quit drinking and stay sober.  My life is so remarkably different and better now that there is no comparison.  An overwhelming number of people who I remember when I first went to AA are also still sober, so I know that AA does change many lives for the better, and not just our own.  My family's life is better...my relationships with friends are better--it didn't just change my life, it had a positive effect on the lives that I was a part of, too.

Cult?  Oh please.
In AA, you can come and go as you please. Or go.  Or come back. Or just go. No one will chase you down, hound you to come back.  AA does not recruit.  There are no dues or fees, and doesn't ask you to part with your life savings.  You want to put a dollar in the cup for coffee and cookies? great. if not. also great.  There's no "one" way to work the 12-steps.  Anyone who says that is just plain WRONG.  AA does not require you to stop drinking to be a part of AA-- only a desire to quit.  It's a spiritual program, not a religious program, and has no denomination or sect associated.   AA was founded in the 50's, not the 30's, but regardless, millions have found a new way of living different from one that involved drinking alcohol.

If you don't like it, don't go.  No one ever said it's the only way to deal with addiction.  There has been one thing in AA that I found really incredible--I've been to meetings all over the country and it was the one place that even though all the people in the room had different beliefs, religions, political parties, sexual orientations, ethnic backgrounds-- the common experience of battling addiction brought us together.

The rooms of AA is a place where I do not feel judged.

edited for typos.



LadyPact -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/8/2011 9:56:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Some people are atheists, and the court should not be mandating them to be spiritual or associate with the spiritual.. therein lies the problem.

I have a major issue with over half of the steps because they involve god on some level...

Yes, we have the right to be free of god, in other words, we have the right to say we do not want god in our lives on any level.

I'm beginning to think it's more your problem, julia.  There are people right here on this thread who are atheists or agnostic that didn't have an issue with it because of a three letter word.  Is it a good reason not to pay the court fines, too?  Since the "in God we trust" bit is still on currency. 

I'm not saying cognitive behavior therapy isn't a good choice for those who don't want to be involved with AA.  Hey, if they get a five percent success rate, while AA gets a five percent success rate, and people quitting on their own get five percent, that's fifteen percent total.  I'm not going to argue with success no matter what form it comes in.

However, there are some real advantages connected to those twelve step programs.  They don't cost a dime for the courts to send people, with the exception of the cost of printing the little slips that get signed.  The folks working phone lines to help people free of charge are always a resource.  The people taking information on the program to people in jails, rehabs, and other institutions don't ask for a dime.  They do it because it was something that worked for them and that's worth something.



juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/8/2011 9:59:31 PM)

quote:

I'm beginning to think it's more your problem, julia.  There are people right here on this thread who are atheists or agnostic that didn't have an issue with it because of a three letter word.  Is it a good reason not to pay the court fines, too?  Since the "in God we trust" bit is still on currency. 


Actually, it is not my problem, there have been court cases about this (and no I have never been mandated by a court to do anything)

quote:

However, there are some real advantages connected to those twelve step programs. They don't cost a dime for the courts to send people, with the exception of the cost of printing the little slips that get signed. The folks working phone lines to help people free of charge are always a resource. The people taking information on the program to people in jails, rehabs, and other institutions don't ask for a dime. They do it because it was something that worked for them and that's worth something.


So we should violate the constitution because its free? As I said, no one can show that AA is even more effective than doing nothing at all, which we are not even getting anything out of violating the constitution

BTW, I posted a link to the court cases surrounding court mandated AA, did you read it?



LadyPact -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/8/2011 11:35:49 PM)

No, I didn't, julia.  I honestly didn't have the time between everything that's going on from this side of the screen.  I'm in and out here at best.

I can't say I'm on the side of the criminal on this one, which is the only way a person can get a court order to attend *any* kind of therapy, group meetings, etc, is because they have a conviction.  We pull other Constitutional rights when people violate the law.  I suppose I'm seeing it in the same way on that measure.



tweakabelle -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/8/2011 11:59:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
quote:

If I were an alcoholic who had found AA to be the thing that saved my life, I would be terribly offended by your calling it poppycock. 

I never said that AA was poppycock, I said that the doctrine of powerlessness is poppycock. Now, that is my opinion, and I almost feel as though I am being attacked for insulting a religious group here, seriously.

The frustration several of us are having is that you persistently misconstrue the AA concept of powerlessness.

As I understand it Step 1 is "We admitted we were powerless over <substance of choice>—that our lives had become unmanageable."

Again as I understand it, after going through the 12 Steps, one ends up with a realisation that one has a choice over one's substance of choice - to use it or not use it, and that not using it is a choice that one makes on a daily basis.

To me one of the core points of this discussion is whether the choice available post-12 Steps is also available at Step 1 or not. If it is - then the disease model is, it seems to me, somewhat compromised. If it isn't, then where does the choice post 12-Steps come from?



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/9/2011 2:29:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

My mom is on hydrocodone for pain management. They have her take urine tests every so often (without warning) to show she isn't abusing them. She is not an addict, and they treat her like one.
I take oxycontin (sustained release) and Roxycodone (instant release). The urine tests ( I had one May 3rd) are to not only test for other substances, legal or not, but also to make certain that the pain client is complying (taking the meds and not selling them or otherwise not complying).

-------> Linnea: Find a pain specialist. My pain doc is very cool (she followed the Dead whilst in Uni) and very understanding. GPs increasingly are avoiding actually treating patients, particularly pain patients.



juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/9/2011 9:37:42 AM)

quote:

We pull other Constitutional rights when people violate the law.  I suppose I'm seeing it in the same way on that measure.


Most of our rights under the Bill of Rights remain intact, other than 2nd Amendment rights.

My brother in law is a correctional officer, they have to be very careful not to violate a prisoner's rights... and freedom of religion is one that keeps the courts busy with petitions from inmates



juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/9/2011 9:40:31 AM)

quote:

To me one of the core points of this discussion is whether the choice available post-12 Steps is also available at Step 1 or not. If it is - then the disease model is, it seems to me, somewhat compromised. If it isn't, then where does the choice post 12-Steps come from?


And perhaps that boils down the points of contention on this thread



LadyPact -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/9/2011 10:54:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Most of our rights under the Bill of Rights remain intact, other than 2nd Amendment rights.

My brother in law is a correctional officer, they have to be very careful not to violate a prisoner's rights... and freedom of religion is one that keeps the courts busy with petitions from inmates

Which is a bit of a stretch.  It's freedom *of* religion, not freedom *from* religion.  It's not like your brother has to attempt to cover the ears of any inmate who doesn't want another inmate to be in earshot if someone says the word "God". 

If I'm understanding the original correctly, two meetings are being pulled off of the AA schedule because those meetings are taking the God or Higher Power part out of the meetings.  Perfectly fine for those who want to attend such meetings and would also seem to fulfill your point that anybody sentenced to attend where people don't want the God element as part of the stipulation.  At the same time, wouldn't you think that AA as a program has the right to say that only a certain structure or philosophy is what AA is and will be included on the schedule that they produce?  It's not like the pizza joint down the street gets to go to Jenny Craig and say that Jenny Craig has to promote their pizza as a Jenny Craig product just because it also happens to be food.



juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/9/2011 11:06:38 AM)

quote:

Which is a bit of a stretch.  It's freedom *of* religion, not freedom *from* religion.


I posted the 12 steps.... more than half of them mention god. More or less, these steps are the steps Christians use to live life. These are Christian concepts. Now, that does not mean they are automatically flawed, but they are still Christian concepts that talk about God. I know this because I have studied with several protestant organizations when I was younger, and I know Christian when I see Christian.

When we are walking around on the street we have to acknowledge other people's rights to express their religion. We should not have the right to compel people to STUDY a religion they have no desire to take part in. That is court mandating someone study a belief system, that is the government compelling a person to take part in spiritual matters... that is a line I am completely uncomfortable with as someone with my own spiritual beliefs.

I have stated, quite frankly I might add, that the 12 steps violate my spiritual beliefs. For me to be forced to sit in an AA meeting would be in violation of my civil liberties, my first amendment rights... now, to compel someone to attend a group of their choice isn't a violation of their rights. If alternatives are not available, the court needs to either create one, or stop the mandate.

And this is pretty much becoming the case law in the USA



juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/9/2011 11:26:13 AM)

Just a few alternatives to AA that a court might be able to allow someone to substitute.. notice that because these groups are not as entrenched as AA they do not have convenient local chapters that one can access. They DO have computer based support groups, and in the age of the internet, this could be a viable alternative to court mandated AA. Those remanded to take part in a sobriety program could go to a certain place that had computers where their attendance could be logged by a system.

http://www.smartrecovery.org/
SMART Recovery® (Self-Management And Recovery Training) helps people recover from all types of addictive behaviors, including: alcoholism, drug abuse, substance abuse, drug addiction, alcohol abuse, gambling addiction, cocaine addiction, and addiction to other substances and activities. SMART Recovery® offers free face-to-face and online mutual help groups. The website provides more information about the group, as well as links to the 300+ face-to-face meetings offered around the world, 16+ online meetings per week and their online message board for additional support.




http://www.moderation.org/
Moderation Management (MM) is a behavioral change program and national support group network for people concerned about their drinking and who desire to make positive lifestyle changes. MM empowers individuals to accept personal responsibility for choosing and maintaining their own path, whether moderation or abstinence. MM promotes early self-recognition of risky drinking behavior, when moderate drinking is a more easily achievable goal. The website provides information about the organization as well as links to live meetings, online support options, and tools/publications for assessing and managing your drinking



https://rational.org/index.php?id=1
Rational Recovery is a worldwide source of counseling, guidance, and direct instruction on self-recovery from addiction to alcohol and other drugs through planned, permanent abstinence. The group believes that individuals are on their own in staying sober, so there are no meetings or treatment centers as part of the approach. The website provides information about the method (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique® (AVRT®)), frequently asked questions, free information for those trying to stay sober, as well as their families, and information about subscription based service.





LadyPact -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/9/2011 11:51:35 AM)

Those are really good resources, julia.  I would hope that folks who did have an issue with attending AA would be as diligent as you.

I still can't say, for example, that I believe an option such as Smart Recovery meetings should have to be included on an AA schedule.



juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/9/2011 12:13:07 PM)

I think the idea of moderation management is a real plus. Many people who have issues with alcohol could learn to manage their drinking instead of having a lifetime of "abstinence only" model. If nothing else, it is a way for people to see if they can really learn to manage their drinking, or if they should abstain completely. I read through that model when I was trying to help someone close to me deal with their drinking. I think it is interesting because many alcoholics are put off by the idea they will never drink again. Under this program, it says "In the future you can try to see if you can manage your drinking after a long period of abstinence".... if they can, then they learned to manage their issue, if they cannot, it is one more step to admitting that they shouldn't drink at all.

I do not think that AA and smart recovery have anything to do with each other. They are separate programs altogether... Our courts do not mandate that AA meetings occur, they mandate people attend existing meetings. I do not see what the difference would be from the smart recovery approach



LadyPact -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/9/2011 12:23:06 PM)

Which, again, is an approach that might work for some.  However, that still makes them two different programs.  The same, I would have to imagine, if a group would conduct their meetings while eliminating the God element from their  meetings.  Meaning in that region, they aren't including those meetings on the schedule because they have deviated from what the AA program says it was based on.  Something to the tune of you don't get to rewrite the twelve steps and still be considered AA.



SilverMark -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/9/2011 12:27:32 PM)

For as large an organization as AA is, I never new it had a base in religion. I knew that the meetings were sometimes held in church's classrooms and all but, had no idea aside from that. So, to be friend of Bob's you need to be a friend of Jesus?



juliaoceania -> RE: Does religion belong at AA? Fight over God splits Toronto AA groups - thestar.com (6/9/2011 12:33:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Which, again, is an approach that might work for some.  However, that still makes them two different programs.  The same, I would have to imagine, if a group would conduct their meetings while eliminating the God element from their  meetings.  Meaning in that region, they aren't including those meetings on the schedule because they have deviated from what the AA program says it was based on.  Something to the tune of you don't get to rewrite the twelve steps and still be considered AA.



I specifically posted programs that were not modeled after the 12 steps. I did this with the entire point that these steps were contrived upon the Christian world view and designed under that belief system.

I may misunderstand you, but what you seem to be saying is that the only recovery program that counts should be AA, which is flawed because it has been shown that people have about as much success quitting on their own as they do by attending an AA meeting. So why does it matter what they choose to do?

Personally, I think people would be much better served by choosing a program that they think will best help them, instead of being mandated by a court to attend a program developed with a Christian perspective. I think that court mandated recovery is a last ditch effort to help people reform their behavior. It is not done for punishment, otherwise we would lock them up instead. I see it as rehabilitative, not punitive. There maybe other punitive measures taken, like probation, community service, but treatment itself should never be seen as a punitive thing. That is counterproductive to getting well.




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