Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler?

Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (Full Version)

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SAMHAIN09 -> Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (6/12/2011 4:14:42 PM)
I have been thinking we all know that Hitler led the Third Reich but he grew up in a racist world so would the Holocaust have happened with or without him?

gungadin09 -> RE: Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (6/12/2011 4:28:11 PM)
No. pam

Arpig -> RE: Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (6/12/2011 5:20:50 PM)
It could only have happened on the scale it did under Hitler. There might have been a few pogroms in Poland or Russia through the later half of the 20th, but I doubt it.

BamaD -> RE: Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (6/12/2011 5:26:05 PM)
Since the Nazis would not have been in power they would not have. However the treaty ending WWI plus the disasters of the Weimar (sp) republic virtually assured Germany of getting someone like Hitler, ultra nationalistic, scapegoating some group for the defeat and a militaristic quest for revenge.

Rule -> RE: Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (6/12/2011 6:10:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SAMHAIN09 I have been thinking we all know that Hitler led the Third Reich but he grew up in a racist world so would the Holocaust have happened with or without him? It was the time of the madness of eugenics. So yes, it would.

SternSkipper -> RE: Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (6/12/2011 9:51:43 PM)
quote: I have been thinking we all know that Hitler led the Third Reich but he grew up in a racist world so would the Holocaust have happened with or without him? Does it matter? Or is there some search for some theory that the nazis would have been great guys without Hitler having come along. I doubt you'd be able to find Germans that would subscribe to that. Fact is IT HAPPENED and nobody should ever forget that it did.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (6/13/2011 1:43:22 AM)
The Fascist anti-Jew movement in Germany was well underway by the time Hitler was recruited. My "Concentration Camp Dachau 1933-1945" book, which I boight there, has this on page 14: "The Germanic Aryans - Retrospect. Characteristics of the three great races to one another; social effects of their combination; the superiority of the white race and before all the Aryan Family. Only the white nations have a history. Why nearly all of the great nations have developed in the Occident." (apparently a table of contents from a book or periodical -HK) written 1853-1855. Google also "The Hammer the Independent Periodical for National Life" which was already in it's 18th year of publication by July 1919. (it's cool having such an eclectic library, nicht wahr?) Also Google "Ostara for blondes and the male rights movement" "SIND SIE BLOND? Then you create and safeguard culture. Read Ostara...(issue #72)" (ja. snort) Julius Streicher, Rudolf Hess,, Deitrich Eckart, and Hans Frank all belonged to the Thule Society inner circle of the Germanic Order (founded in N. Germany 1912; 1918 in München) circa 1918-19. "On Sept 12, 1919, Captain Mayr (this is a Bavarian name from the spelling -HK), a member of the staff of the Reichswehrgruppencommando IV, sent a confidential agent to one of their meetings. His name was ADOLF HITLER." (pg 18 of the KZ Dachau book). It didn't take long for Hitler to begin his oratory. "Ortsgruppe München Branch - Deitsche Arbeiter-Partei München Dec. 12, 1919 Your presence is hereby requested on Wednesday, December 10, 1919 in the large assembly hall of the "Zum Deutschen Reich" Dachauerstraße 143 (next to the Tram stop Loristraße #24) where a meeting is to be held. Speaker: Mr. Hitler on "Germany facing its worst humiliation". This invitation will ensure entrance. The hall is heated (note this detail -HK) The Committee Joseph Mayr First Secretary Andrästraße 10/3" I believe the answer is yes.

calamitysandra -> RE: Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (6/13/2011 9:40:31 AM)
Maybe not in exactly the same form, but something along the lines would have happened. There was a very fertile breeding ground for extremists at that time, and anti Jewish sentiment was deeply entrenched already.

Muttling -> RE: Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (6/13/2011 11:16:21 AM)
Hitler was only one part the equation. While Jews were the largest group of victims of the holocaust, gypsies, gays, Jehovah Witnesses, the handicapped, and even Catholic Priests were targeted in the cleansing effort. Hitlers views were shared by much of the leadership of the Nazi party (I included a couple of select quote below.) I think it would have been equally likely to happen is Hitler hadn't been the fuhrer, but Himmler was the organizer of the concentration camps and was particularly interested in cleansing the population. Without someone as fanatical about it as Himmler, it may not have been so prolific. Goebbels, 1941 The Jews have always been the carriers of infectious diseases. They should either be concentrated in a ghetto and left to themselves or be liquidated, for otherwise they will infect the populations of the civilized nations. Himmler, 1943 We won’t waste much time on the Jews. It’s great to get to grips with the Jewish race at last. The more that die the better; hitting them represents a victory for our Reich. The Jews should feel that we’ve arrived. We want to put half to three-quarters of all Jews east of the Vistula. We will crush these Jews wherever we can. Everything is at stake. Get the Jews out of the Reich, Vienna, everywhere. We have no use for Jews in the Reich. Probably the line of the Vistula, behind this line no more. We are the most important people here.

MasterJohnSteed -> RE: Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (6/13/2011 4:16:56 PM)
I suggest that next time you want to see how truly evil that Hitler was, try watching a little movie that Adolph had made "The Eternal Jew" or even Jud Süß (Jew Süss) and for the trifecta Triumph des Willens

PeonForHer -> RE: Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (6/13/2011 4:38:48 PM)
The Eternal Jew is on Youtube, with English subtitles, at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux61a6iTPI0. It's not fun watching, though. It's interesting, given that the communists were themselves gaining so much influence in 1930s Germany, that the word 'capitalists' could have been substituted for 'Jews' in much of what was said in that film, notwithstanding, arguably, a similar level of distortion of truth.

SternSkipper -> RE: Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (6/13/2011 5:04:22 PM)
quote: Does it matter? Or is there some search for some theory that the nazis would have been great guys without Hitler having come along. I doubt you'd be able to find Germans that would subscribe to that. Given what I said, do you really think I need to be informed about this stuff.... you need to have a chat with Samhain... only hain i'll give my message to twice is WARREN HAYNES. Most of what I know about the nazis is from spending 5 years driving around my little old landlord Irving Schwebber in his last years on earth. He was there before the book. And he had some pretty cool adventures tempered with tragedy when he escaped germany and went back to europe to free his wife Paula from a polish ghetto... I didn't really WANT the Nazi or Aryan perspective. And STILL DON'T.

SternSkipper -> RE: Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (6/13/2011 5:06:19 PM)
quote: It's interesting, given that the communists were themselves gaining so much influence in 1930s Germany, that the word 'capitalists' could have been substituted for 'Jews' in much of what was said in that film, notwithstanding, arguably, a similar level of distortion of truth. Excellent Cite!

YerAMess -> RE: Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (6/14/2011 4:18:40 AM)
The Holocaust was not the first time an empire of some sort was trying to kill off the Jews, just one of the more successful ones. Even today without American backing, Israel would be turned to dust simply because they live with enemies on all sides. Eventually though, I hope we'll stop taking into consideration the opinions and desires of fabricated beings and just appreciate the fact that we even exist as a species in the first place.

fadedshadow -> RE: Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (6/14/2011 4:41:17 AM)
it could happen but it's something we'll never know

LadyConstanze -> RE: Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (6/14/2011 5:27:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SAMHAIN09 I have been thinking we all know that Hitler led the Third Reich but he grew up in a racist world so would the Holocaust have happened with or without him? I really don't think so, it was too well organized, just think about how you needed baptism certificates I think down to your grandparents to show that you're not Jewish, who else but somebody with a grudge (failed artists who blamed Jews for his failure though now historians have actually shown that there were NO Jews on the selection panel of the Vienna Academy of Fine Art that rejected him, so it can be assumed that he possibly was deluded enough to convince himself that he was a victim) would have gone to those extremes? One of the best books regarding Hitler and his rise to power is "Hitler" by Joachim C. Fest, who has some interesting theories regarding Hitler's early life and what brought his Antisemitism on, it's still a bit puzzling for most historians because in the early days he had Jewish friends and showed no resentment. Something that becomes quite clear when you dive a bit into the background is, that he equaled Jews with Communists, bringing up theories of a 'Judeo-Bolshevist conspiracy' - personally I believe that the Nazis were opportunists who needed a scape goat, remember the Falkland war or the cold war area - nothing unites a country better than a mutual enemy, a good way to gain power is to spread fear, and what most people decide to distinctively overlook, Hitler and the Nazis didn't just kill Jews, they killed Communists, liberals, homosexuals, gypsies, etc. Gahhh, this could be long and I need to go into a meeting...

xssve -> RE: Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (6/14/2011 6:39:11 AM)
Anti-semitism has been a feature of European politics going back to the Middle Ages at least, but the Germans copied the American eugenics movement. quote: The state of California was at the vanguard of the American eugenics movement, performing about 20,000 sterilizations or one third of the 60,000 nationwide from 1909 up until the 1960s.[77] By 1910, there was a large and dynamic network of scientists, reformers and professionals engaged in national eugenics projects and actively promoting eugenic legislation. The American Breeder’s Association was the first eugenic body in the U.S., established in 1906 under the direction of biologist Charles B. Davenport. The ABA was formed specifically to “investigate and report on heredity in the human race, and emphasize the value of superior blood and the menace to society of inferior blood.” Membership included Alexander Graham Bell, Stanford president David Starr Jordan and Luther Burbank.[79] When Nazi administrators went on trial for war crimes in Nuremberg after World War II, they justified the mass sterilizations (over 450,000 in less than a decade) by citing the United States as their inspiration.[66] The Nazis had claimed American eugenicists inspired and supported Hitler's racial purification laws, and failed to understand the connection between those policies and the eventual genocide of the Holocaust.[80]

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (6/14/2011 5:17:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Muttling Hitler was only one part the equation. While Jews were the largest group of victims of the holocaust, gypsies, gays, Jehovah Witnesses, the handicapped, and even Catholic Priests were targeted in the cleansing effort. Hitlers views were shared by much of the leadership of the Nazi party (I included a couple of select quote below.) And whether it is out of political correctness or an incomplete knowledge of the era, you leave out the very strong influence of the Muslim Brotherhood on both Hitler and Himmler.

Owner59 -> RE: Would the Holocaust have happened with or without Hitler? (6/14/2011 7:20:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SternSkipper quote: I have been thinking we all know that Hitler led the Third Reich but he grew up in a racist world so would the Holocaust have happened with or without him? Does it matter? Or is there some search for some theory that the nazis would have been great guys without Hitler having come along. I doubt you'd be able to find Germans that would subscribe to that. Fact is IT HAPPENED and nobody should ever forget that it did. This.

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