RE: Sex as commodity

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angelikaJ -> RE: Sex as commodity (6/15/2011 1:50:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep most people who've lived a normal life know enough about human nature to know that there are some scum-o'-the-earth types out there. i don't think it's realistic to say that sex workers won't be treated like shit, simply because they have the right not to be. on the contrary, it's more realistic to assume that they will be, due to the type of people that their lifestyle generally brings them into contact with. but that likelihood doesn't negate the right. And that is the unfortunate fact. It would be wonderful if sex-workers were treated with dignity and respect by the people who they work for and society at large. They should have that right. As human beings they do have that right. They have protections under the law... which are often not enforced. Instead they are margin people; often invisible. It is difficult not to do what I did in that other thread and say, "Well, what did you expect? Richard Gere?" And I wish it wasn't like that for them. I would like for sex work to be legal for a lot of reasons, that being among them.

PeonForHer -> RE: Sex as commodity (6/15/2011 1:52:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LinnaeaBorealis Every time people realize that the way that they've been blaming the victim is no longer perceived as "cool", they come up with another way. Ain't that the truth . . . .

LaTigresse -> RE: Sex as commodity (6/15/2011 2:01:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep most people who've lived a normal life know enough about human nature to know that there are some scum-o'-the-earth types out there. i don't think it's realistic to say that sex workers won't be treated like shit, simply because they have the right not to be. on the contrary, it's more realistic to assume that they will be, due to the type of people that their lifestyle generally brings them into contact with. but that likelihood doesn't negate the right. And that is the unfortunate fact. It would be wonderful if sex-workers were treated with dignity and respect by the people who they work for and society at large. They should have that right. As human beings they do have that right. They have protections under the law... which are often not enforced. Instead they are margin people; often invisible. It is difficult not to do what I did in that other thread and say, "Well, what did you expect? Richard Gere?" And I wish it wasn't like that for them. I would like for sex work to be legal for a lot of reasons, that being among them. Agreed. Another, really unfortunate, part of the equation is that many of the people that get involved in the sex trades have come from back grounds of abuse and mistreatment. Quite often they themselves have a very low expectation of others, and of their own value as a human being. Mistreatment, often sexually, from a young age, has taught them a 'norm' that many of us cannot imagine. When you grow up with such a horrible abnormal being your normal, your perception of the world, the people in it, and yourself and your own value, is very skewed. If they have had no one they can trust, that has been there for them consistently, telling them otherwise......they may, in a very twisted way and perhaps only on a subconscious level even, believe that the abuse and mistreatment is what they deserve. That it is all they are worth. So they certainly wouldn't fight against it.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Sex as commodity (6/15/2011 2:14:25 PM)
for me, i actually have considered it at different points in my life. after what happened when i was young, i thought it might be a way i could help my mom. (i have always had this inordinately huge guilt complex, and i take on guilt for things that i really shouldn't.) i was pretty young still but i thought maybe it was something i could do, but the very strong fear response that also came along with what happened kept me from acting on it. so sometimes you see something that was done to you as "the only thing you're good for" and you think, well at least that's something i can do. for me, fear always stopped me (particularly during the period when i didn't want to be touched at all).

NocturnalStalker -> RE: Sex as commodity (6/15/2011 2:43:10 PM)
Yet we've all masturbated to porn. How dumb.

mnottertail -> RE: Sex as commodity (6/15/2011 2:44:06 PM)
I thought it was pretty fuckin brilliant at the times I have done it.

angelikaJ -> RE: Sex as commodity (6/15/2011 3:59:23 PM)
For me, there have been times in my life when I have traded sex for attention and affection when sex was the furthest thing from what I wanted, and there were times in my beginnings here on CM in which I treated myself shabbily and cheaply. I am really ashamed to admit that... and don't know why I am being open about something that need not be so personal, unless perhaps it might be relate-able to someone else. I am afraid to be this vulnerable and imperfect in such a public place where there are both soft shouders and predatory things looking for fresh meat.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: Sex as commodity (6/15/2011 4:07:07 PM)
well since the thread has focused pretty much on prostitution as opposed to the other aspects of the commercialization of sex, i'll make a few comments to correct a few misconceptions, confirm a few things already stated, and just add a few insights. so that nobody will be distracted from what i say by my usual profanities, i will make sure i don't use a single dirty word. i'm not going to debate what i say afterwards, its not debatable because i'm simply relating things i know from personal experience, which has far more validity in my mind than any study or theory. what i have to say is true for the street walkers of the downtown/gastown area of vancouver during the years 2006 & 2007. i make no claims to its applicability to any other time or place. 1. very very few of the girls are there because they want to be, and very few are there because they are forced to by somebody else. the vast majority are there simply because they have no other choice. turn tricks or starve. 2. almost all are addicts, alcohol being almost universally abused, most whores are at least a little drunk all the time. of the harder drugs crack is the most common, followed by regular cocaine (my demon), meth, and finally heroin (horse heads make lousy whores, no work ethic). those that weren't addicts when they start, very quickly become addicts, to escape temporarily from the life. 3. the johns are not from a small segment of the population. they are from all segments. there are not many regulars, many are from out of town, the johns we got were generally white, middle class, married with kids, in their mid 30s to mid 50s. and most just do it on a whim, a prostitute is the ultimate impulse purchase. 4. almost all johns view the prostitute as completely undeserving of any human compassion, and treat them abominably. a prostitute is not a person, she is a life support system for a vagina. 5. about 1/3 of the girls were abused before the age of 15 6. about 2/3 of the girls are aboriginal 7. the main reason why so few ever attempt to do anything about their abuse is because the police and outreach people who are supposed to be there to help are among the worst abusers. 8. the only real friends a hooker has are the drunks and junkies, they watch out for the girls on their stretch of pavement. 9. every single girl i spoke to wished she could find a way out of the life, but just couldn't see one. 10. most started around the age of 15 or 16, but there were 11 year olds doing it, they were very popular with the johns, particularly the physically abusive ones, with them the younger the better. 11. most of the girls have a very, very low opinion of men in general. 12. not all the predatory abusers were male, there was one woman who brought her teenage daughters down on friday and saturday nights to make them turn tricks. those are just a few points i wanted to make. hannah lynn p.s. i just can't do it anymore!!!!!!! fuck fuck, shit, piss motherfucker, cocksucker, fuckity fuck fuck fuck! ah! there, now i feel better [:)]

gungadin09 -> RE: Sex as commodity (6/15/2011 4:33:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gungadin09 How many people who agree that sex workers have the right not to be treated like shit, that they have the right to complain when they are... how many people who say so would also say that it's realistic to think that they won't be? ETA: i happen to believe both. i think i phrased that wrong. What i meant was: sex workers absolutely do have the RIGHT not to be treated like shit, but i think it's unrealistic for them to EXPECT that everyone will honor that right. Maybe someday, but i don't think that's the reality now. Sorry for the confusion. pam

RedMagic1 -> RE: Sex as commodity (6/15/2011 4:35:32 PM)
Great post. Thank you.

gungadin09 -> RE: Sex as commodity (6/15/2011 4:40:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ But how many women give him sex because then she might keep him interested... and so they trade. i have never had sex for any other reason. pam

Hillwilliam -> RE: Sex as commodity (6/15/2011 5:42:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather p.s. i just can't do it anymore!!!!!!! fuck fuck, shit, piss motherfucker, cocksucker, fuckity fuck fuck fuck! ah! there, now i feel better [:)] Sometimes, you just have to let it out.

LaTigresse -> RE: Sex as commodity (6/15/2011 6:38:27 PM)
Thank you Hannah. You've pretty much underlined what I already knew through my relationship with someone I will just call Amelia Grace. She hates me calling her Amelia Grace and prefers Amy or Amy Grace. But I like Amelia so......[;)] She hasn't contacted me in over a year. I never know if I will ever hear from her again.

gungadin09 -> RE: Sex as commodity (6/15/2011 7:58:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gungadin09 ...sex workers absolutely do have the RIGHT not to be treated like shit, but i think it's unrealistic for them to EXPECT that everyone will honor that right. i have a confession to make. If i were to hear on the news that a woman had been raped in the parking lot after work, my feelings on the subject would probably change depending on whether the woman was a waitress or a prostitute. i would be sad and angry in each case, but i confess that i would not be as "shocked" in the case of the prostitute. Not because i think of prostitutes as being worth less than other people, but because i see danger as being part of the job description, in a way that it is not for a waitress or another primarily female job. i don't know what it says about me, but i do accept the fact that abuse is an inevitable part of a prostitute's life, while i do not accept that it is an inevitable part of a waitresses life, simply because one is illegal. i would have said the same about drug dealers; that i understand that many people are driven to it out of necessity and have difficulty getting out, but that part of accepting the job is accepting the dangers that come with it, and that once a person steps outside of the law they necessarily lose some of the protection of the law. i don't feel for them any less, and i don't think that the abuser is any more "justified" because the victim is a prostitute, but i do have a kind of "if you play with fire you're going to get burned" mentality. i'm not sure if i'm justified in being resigned to injustice when it befalls prostitutes and drug dealers. Feel free to call me out on this one, if you like. pam

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Sex as commodity (6/15/2011 8:09:29 PM)
i don't think you should be called out; i think that's a pretty realistic way of looking at it. it's kinda like when extreme sports guys get killed; it's still sad, and you wish it didn't happen, but you expect it to more than you expect it to happen to a chess player. in many ways, it's the nature of the beast. there are people who specifically prey on prostitutes because they're easy to get and generally easy to get into your car. there are also people who prey specifically on waitresses, but that's a lot more work and is less likely to happen. the problem that i have is when crimes against them are dismissed or forgotten -- i don't think what you're doing is dismissive or forgetting them at all, you're simply being a realist.

NuevaVida -> RE: Sex as commodity (6/15/2011 8:12:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ For me, there have been times in my life when I have traded sex for attention and affection when sex was the furthest thing from what I wanted, and there were times in my beginnings here on CM in which I treated myself shabbily and cheaply. I am really ashamed to admit that... and don't know why I am being open about something that need not be so personal, unless perhaps it might be relate-able to someone else. I am afraid to be this vulnerable and imperfect in such a public place where there are both soft shouders and predatory things looking for fresh meat. Well if it helps any, that was always my main motive for sex - to at least be touched for a little while. To maybe have someone's focus for just that period of time. To pretend (and hope) I was actually cared about. It's where my life was at the time, for a very long time. I have no shame in admitting it, because it's simply where I was, and the road leading to it is rather clear to me. And then I decided to choose differently for myself, because I decided to start getting to know and like myself. I actually told the Mister, when we were getting to know each other, that I would not be having sex with anyone I wasn't in an established relationship with, meaning, until I was in a committed relationship with someone, there would be no sex, no one-nighters, no 1st, 2nd, or 3rd date sex - none. Nada. It was the very first time in my life I ever said that and lived up to it. So hopefully your shame and feelings of vulnerability will lessen a bit. We are where we are, at any given time. The question is, where do you want to go?

angelikaJ -> RE: Sex as commodity (6/17/2011 6:00:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ For me, there have been times in my life when I have traded sex for attention and affection when sex was the furthest thing from what I wanted, and there were times in my beginnings here on CM in which I treated myself shabbily and cheaply. I am really ashamed to admit that... and don't know why I am being open about something that need not be so personal, unless perhaps it might be relate-able to someone else. I am afraid to be this vulnerable and imperfect in such a public place where there are both soft shouders and predatory things looking for fresh meat. Well if it helps any, that was always my main motive for sex - to at least be touched for a little while. To maybe have someone's focus for just that period of time. To pretend (and hope) I was actually cared about. It's where my life was at the time, for a very long time. I have no shame in admitting it, because it's simply where I was, and the road leading to it is rather clear to me. And then I decided to choose differently for myself, because I decided to start getting to know and like myself. I actually told the Mister, when we were getting to know each other, that I would not be having sex with anyone I wasn't in an established relationship with, meaning, until I was in a committed relationship with someone, there would be no sex, no one-nighters, no 1st, 2nd, or 3rd date sex - none. Nada. It was the very first time in my life I ever said that and lived up to it. So hopefully your shame and feelings of vulnerability will lessen a bit. We are where we are, at any given time. The question is, where do you want to go? Thank you NV for taking the time and as always for your generosity. I am not in that place anymore. I did not even realise the entirety of what I was doing until I was no longer doing it; until someone shined a very bright light into those dark corners and called it for what it was in pretty frank terms and asked for accountability. And when I saw it at first I tried to wiggle out of it... "No, that isn't me, that wasn't me, that *couldn't be me*... " and acceptance of that dark place was and still is difficult sometimes, but the important thing is it isn't me any more.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Sex as commodity (6/17/2011 11:14:21 AM)
Heather, I think what you say might apply for street walkers, but in general not quite true about prostitution in general. Having worked in the music industry for a few years, it was not unusual (in fact it was rather normal) that artists had companions "hired" for the tours, a lot less trouble for all parties concerned, there was no danger of them ending up with a groupie who then turns out to be a minor and it causes a massive scandal, no unwanted pregnancies, less risks of diseases, no scandals... It sounds bloody cold but the girls were on the riders of the artists and they had a generous daily allowance and they seemed to be enjoying the job and especially the perks, expensive hotels, back stage tickets, spa treatments... The parties were sometimes quite wild but the working girls never seemed to get drunk and hardly ever did drugs despite being offered, they took care of themselves and quite a few of them were models who needed a bit of extra cash, so if they were photographed with the musicians, well a musician dating a model - headlines for both and she might even get jobs she didn't get before or get her break. Different ball game. I can see how everything you said in your post is true for the people you talk about, but I think it has also a lot to do with where it happens, if prostitution is illegal and the woman who prostitutes herself is treated like a criminal, yes, they will see the police as the enemy and they will need pimps for protection, if a prostitute is legal and a guy roughing her up is treated like a criminal and ends in court, it's different, the attitude of the police is different and the attitude of the women towards the police is different. I'm not saying that there is no social stigmata attached to the job, but a woman can avoid this by working in another city and it's a great deal less dangerous if she works in a controlled environment and doesn't have to hide on the fringes of society, where she's easy prey for all sorts of abusers. Hence I'll always believe in making prostitution legal.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Sex as commodity (6/17/2011 11:31:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam Am I the only one who wonders what the difference is between a woman who gives it up for a n hour for a hundred bucks and a woman who gives it up for years for a boob job, a new car and a lifestyle? LOL, usually "respectability" and a wedding band, if she's lucky even a divorce settlement if he exchanges her for the newer model, people won't look down on her but they think they have the right to look down on the one who has a shorter lease...

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