Anyone paying attention to Atlanta? (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> Anyone paying attention to Atlanta? (6/14/2011 11:38:47 PM)

The health care law is being debated in Atlanta, which heard arguments on June 7th.

The U.S. Court of Appeals in Atlanta is a panel of three judges, two appointed by Republican Presidents, one by a Democratic one.

Thats not even the interesting part.

At issue is a provision of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act that requires most Americans to have health insurance starting in 2014.

“The question you have before you is that everyone is consuming the goods, it’s about failure to pay,” Acting U.S. Solicitor General Neal Katyal told the panel today.

“The Commerce Clause only gives Congress the power to regulate, not to compel,” states’ attorney Paul D. Clement, a solicitor general under President George W. Bush, told the court later.

Katyal told judges Dubina, Frank M. Hull and Stanley Marcus that no previous case addressed the questions before the court. Asked by the panel whether there were any limits on Congress’s power to regulate commerce under the U.S. Constitution, he said there were, without specifying.

The judges today questioned Katyal about the government’s legal position and frequently interrupted Clement’s argument as well.

“Are there any limits” on Congress’s power to compel people to act? Dubina asked the Justice Department’s lawyer.

“Absolutely,” Katyal replied. “We are not saying that Congress can force somebody to buy something and that failure to do so is economic activity.”

“People are seeking that good already,” he said of health care. The acting solicitor general said $43 billion is spent annually on care for the uninsured. “That’s quintessentially economic,” he said.

Clement told the court the issue boils down to whether the federal government can regulate the individual.

“For 220 years, Congress never saw fit to exercise that power,” he said, adding later, “The whole reason we do this is to protect individual liberty.”

Clement said the Commerce Clause was created to regulate people engaged in commercial activity, not to force them to engage.

Katyal argued that the states’ lawyers were “looking at the wrong side” of the transaction.

“Someone else picks up the tab when you don’t have insurance,” the government lawyer said, “that’s why it’s activity.”


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-08/health-care-law-must-stand-u-s-tells-third-appeals-court-in-atlanta.html

I have not thought about it in that regard before.

Thoughts?




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Anyone paying attention to Atlanta? (6/14/2011 11:52:59 PM)

From the judge's questions it certainly seems like they are ready to declare mandatory insurance unconstitutional. I heard a very caustic comment, almost reprimand, from one of the judges toward the government lawyer the other day, though I forget the topic. Its moot anyway. Florida ensured it will make it to the Supreme Court.

The government argument that "someone else picks up the tab" is way off the mark, because Federal law isnt needed nor is it the right place to solve that problem, state law is, just as it is for automobile liability insurance and Romneycare. The only way SCOTUS declares it constitutional at the Federal level is if they can be convinced its a tax. In that event (and probably even before SCOTUS hears it), there should be plenty of soundbites of Obama's pledge not to increase taxes on anyone $250k and the constant waffling between "its a tax/its not a tax" at different times by the same people.

(Time for one of our "scholars" to jump in with "If its unconstitutional at the Federal level, its unconstitutional at the state level. I'll respond to that in advance: Youre clueless.)




tazzygirl -> RE: Anyone paying attention to Atlanta? (6/14/2011 11:55:30 PM)

I think the "someone else picks up the tab" was in response to the activity part of the question. If the Coomerce clause can regulate people engaged in an activity, and people are already engaged in that activity, then where is the "force"?




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Anyone paying attention to Atlanta? (6/15/2011 12:04:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I think the "someone else picks up the tab" was in response to the activity part of the question. If the Coomerce clause can regulate people engaged in an activity, and people are already engaged in that activity, then where is the "force"?


Because an "insurance freeloader" isnt engaged in the insurance activity, which is what they are trying to argue. They potentially might become engaged in health care activity, but they arent the same thing (you can buy healthcare without being insured, and just because you are uninsured doesnt mean anyone else picks up the tab. Nobody else paid for Rush Limbaugh's medical care.) and its the insurance that is being forced on them. SCOTUS wont give a fuck about the slippery slope "if you can force this you can force anything" argument, but I cant see them saying it falls under the CC. Its a state, not a Federal issue. Romney closed with that point last night, and is correct.




mnottertail -> RE: Anyone paying attention to Atlanta? (6/15/2011 6:08:51 AM)

I have said at the outset that I thought that provision of the bill (forced buying of insurance) was the stupidest fucking thing the democrats have EVER done, and wilbur and I even cordially agreed in our aghastness of the impudence of that provision and the fact it was going to cost them plenty elections.

I believe it to be unconstitutional, but not the entire law.

I think that is a phone it in to SCOTUS. 




Marc2b -> RE: Anyone paying attention to Atlanta? (6/15/2011 6:49:30 AM)

To me the whole "must buy insurance" bit has nothing to do with health care... it is about the limits of government power. If we let them get away with this what will they come up with next? And you know there will be a next... there always is. It is the nature of power to increase itself.





pahunkboy -> RE: Anyone paying attention to Atlanta? (6/15/2011 9:01:39 AM)

...ponder this.  Insurance that is a for profit- vs nonprofit.   Forcing someone to buy ins on a for profit model vs non-profit-  --    is forcing someone to support a corporation.    They would have to make the ins non profit for this to make sense. 




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Anyone paying attention to Atlanta? (6/15/2011 9:20:56 AM)

~FR~

People wonder why the number 1 hiring position in the country is Insurance Sales.




Musicmystery -> RE: Anyone paying attention to Atlanta? (6/15/2011 9:45:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

People wonder why the number 1 hiring position in the country is Insurance Sales.

Because it has a very high turnover rate.




popeye1250 -> RE: Anyone paying attention to Atlanta? (6/15/2011 10:06:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

To me the whole "must buy insurance" bit has nothing to do with health care... it is about the limits of government power. If we let them get away with this what will they come up with next? And you know there will be a next... there always is. It is the nature of power to increase itself.





A "next?" There's already been a few "befores."
Obama dictating to the car makers and the public what kind of cars and trucks we can buy!
Our govt. exista to do the People's bidding, not to try to tell the People what we can or can't do!
They're not the management, they're the hired help!




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Anyone paying attention to Atlanta? (6/15/2011 10:32:29 AM)

And currently under expansion.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

People wonder why the number 1 hiring position in the country is Insurance Sales.

Because it has a very high turnover rate.






willbeurdaddy -> RE: Anyone paying attention to Atlanta? (6/15/2011 1:47:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

And currently under expansion.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

People wonder why the number 1 hiring position in the country is Insurance Sales.

Because it has a very high turnover rate.





To expand it a little, people wonder why the only jobs available are commission only. Hows that change workin out for ya.




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