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RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship - 6/19/2011 11:55:28 PM

ExquisiteStings

Posts: 391
Joined: 4/10/2007
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To Curious and Kinky;
From personal experience, I know it is a difficult transition to make when one has been in a relationship and suddenly you find yourselves adhering to certain labels after the relationship has been established quite a while.
A little advice. Forget about said labels for the time being and who has to adhere to what standard, and just play around with it until both are more comfortable. Eventually, if you want, you'll be able to assume the labels.

(in reply to DeviantlyD)

Post #: 21

RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship - 6/20/2011 5:48:29 AM

aromanholiday

Posts: 307
Joined: 4/12/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Y'know, it never hurts to let someone proceed before you announce that he failed. What say we kinda give him some ideas, and let him try them? That's sorta the way we all began.

The question that occurs to me is: why havn't his attempts to proceed worked before this point? curiousNkinky seems intelligent and quite aware of dominance and submission, so surely such ideas are not brand new to him? If someone is inclined to a dominant orientation, wouldn't they naturally naturally think of these ideas or something comparable on their own because it would be fun to do so, even a passion? When someone needs ideas on how to do something that should be fun and creative if it comes naturally, ideas that are easy to think of if you enjoy whatever it is you do, I personally wonder why they are swimming upstream rather than doing what feels good and normal for them. Swimming upstream, going against your nature, even if you have really good reasons for doing so, usually ends in stress, unhappiness and resentment, even the destruction of the relationship that meant so much to you.

I realize the OP gave us good reasons for wanting to try this. But I think his question had more to do with "How do I feel something foreign to me, how do I build up passion for it?" rather than "what should I do?" I understand how your response was tailored to that first question: you're giving him the "move the muscles in your face to form a smile and soon you'll be feeling happy" style of advice. The trouble is, while that works great for simple emotions, like happiness, that seldom works, in my experience, for sexual orientations as they are such complex psychological beasts, dependent on so many different factors that can't be affected by a "go through the motions of something and soon you'll be that thing" exercise. Nevertheless, it occasionally works if there's the right sort of dry tinder within the person that can be set off by a spark. Yet still I wonder: if that dry tinder exists why hasn't it been sparked before now, given the plethora of fantasy materials, discussions, and kinky porn that surround someone, particularly online.

You know, if someone had a method, if they could brainwash people into becoming dominant, they could earn a lot of money.

_____________________________

"Isn't it odd how we misunderstand the hidden unity of kindness and cruelty?"

My profile is not turned off. It is broken and I am too lazy to make a new one.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 22

RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship - 6/20/2011 7:46:55 AM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

There is no question that subs can become doms. It happens "naturally" all the time, in both directions, among people who "live in the lifestyle." If it can happen there, it can happen in nilla.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to aromanholiday)

Post #: 23

RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship - 6/20/2011 10:00:08 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

Not to be a doubting Thomas here, but the 'how to' of the whole thing, even though well written, isn't necessarily a guarantee. We're not just talking about the acts here, but also how they are perceived. Turn the whole thing around for a moment. I'm a Domme and a pretty good top. Does that mean that MP automatically feels submissive towards Me or have the right vibe that he wants to bottom to Me? No, it doesn't. If everybody got the Dom vibe from everybody who knew all of the right motions, the term "service top" wouldn't even exist. There would be a heck of a lot less compatibility issues, too, because every submissive would feel submissive toward every person who decided to label themselves as Dominant.

Try out the suggestion given, OP. If your gal still just doesn't get the Dom vibe from you, there's nothing saying that other methods won't work. A service top approach might fit the bill. Role play could be a solution for you as well. Talk together and if she just doesn't perceive you as Dominant, explore other options.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 24

RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship - 6/20/2011 10:23:58 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: curiousNkinky
wow, really? couldn't be because I love my lady and in vanilla non-sociopathic human interaction, controlling another human being is considered less than desirable?

Don't sweat it. You can join me in the ranks of the "fake doms". Just so you know, I had that same problem with "control" and for me that word is a lot more extensive than top/bottom. My answer to that "problem" came from asking myself why?. Why exactly is controlling someone bad? What if I wield authority competently and in a way which is beneficial for Carol (you know, the same way I've wielded all the other authority in my life)? In the end, I went with the reasoning that said, "Authority is only corrupt if the person wielding it is corrupt. Non-corrupt authority is actually a much desired thing among leaders and people flock to follow such people.

quote:

Or that I'm just a nice guy that doesn't buy into the pretentious alpha-macho-compensation package that all men are offered by society? Listen, I'm completely capable of being both a controlling and dominating man and a nice guy, I just find the former alien to me as I never had any use for it. Catch more flies with honey, you know? Darksteven had a good idea and I'll be trying it tonight with her. I'm not emasculated, Im compassionate maybe overly so and I have a hard time believing that anyone has a "birthright" to be a chauvinistic tool.

*chuckles* Yup, you're at least socially dominant. Near as I can tell that doesn't translate at all to either sexually dominant or "BDSM dominant". But obviously you are perfectly capable of establishing "your turf" then defending it.

Just so you know, I have no issues with "nice guy syndrome" anymore. I AM a nice guy... so I use the authority I wield to do nice things for the woman I love. *presto*... conundrum resolved.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to curiousNkinky)

Post #: 25

RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship - 6/20/2011 10:42:38 AM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

I think the key issue here is to be willing to ask for forgiveness instead of permission. That is a significant life decision. It can be scary to take the lead.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 26

RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship - 6/20/2011 11:13:10 AM

sexyred1

Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

slight hijack

Am I the only one who wants to go touch her self after reading Stevens reply?

Nope.

(in reply to JstAnotherSub)

Post #: 27

RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship - 6/20/2011 6:22:50 PM

analyticalmaster

Posts: 39
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Curious, I am curious myself, do you consider yourself sub because you see yourself as a nice guy. That isnt being sub, that is being a nice guy, most guys are programed from birth to not hurt women and for most men, that is a good rule. People here will tell you that there is no "true" way, I am going to tell you that is wrong, There are some truths that are absolute. The first truth is to be a Dom, a real one, is that you have to understand who you are and why you are. Some Doms are ruthless pricks, I would never allow to be in my home, let alone near one of mine. Some Doms are strict and authoritarian because that is who they are, they understand themselves and have absolute control over themselves. Some Doms are nice guys who understand themselves and have absolute control over themselves.

There is nothing wrong with being sub, if that is what you are, but there is a difference between being sub and being a bottom. A sub wants control, they need to know that they do not have the final say, that someone else has the ultimate responsibility. A bottom is into sensation play, they want to be spanked and played with to different levels depending on their personal needs. Just being a nice guy is neither of these things.-

Take your love and sit her down and find out who she is and let her know who you are. Does she crave control into her total life or just in the bedroom. I would be willing to bet, right now, what she really wants is for you to take control in the bedroom. If that is the case, you need to find out in yourself, do you want control or do you want her to take it. There is nothing wrong with being a nice guy and taking care of your woman who needs to know she has a man in her life, if that is who you really are. There are techniques, a good one to start with is to simply grab her by the hair in the back of the head, not on top, pull her close to you, look deep in her eyes and simply tell her, that she belongs to you and she is going to obey you whether she likes it or not. You cant fake it, you have to mean it. She has to feel it in her gut, she has to know, you are the man, so she can be the woman.

Understand she may fight you, you have to decide just how much risk you want to take. How much trust in your relationship is there, can you take her to the mat and make her submit to your will without destroying your life and hers. You have to judge how far it is safe to go. Do not under any circumstances go as far as rape, but you have to let her know you are willing to be the boss in the bedroom. A lot of women have to know they belong to someone worthy of them, that you will make the hard decisions that are right for both of you. This doesnt mean you are not a nice guy, you are simply a man who understands that for a significant portion of the female sex a little force is a good thing. Women are at some disadvantage in the sexual wars, they want to be a whore in the bedroom, but cant reconcile that with being a lady in the living room. They need that small little voice in them that says, it wasnt my choice, it was his.

Understand very clearly, you have to know who you are and who she is, because if you misread her, rather than giving a night of sexual fulfillment, you are sexually assaulting someone you love with possibly bad results. So you have to be control of yourself at all times, reading her physical responses every second. The line between just right and over it is very small. So start small, do the hair pull and she how she responds, does she maybe bitch but go with it, or does she strike and hit you. If she strikes back, you have to back off and tell her we really need to talk.

Good luck, and understand this advice comes with no warrenty

(in reply to DeviantlyD)

Post #: 28

RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship - 6/20/2011 6:34:12 PM

TheRaptorJesus

Posts: 640
Joined: 6/3/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

I'd say the problem here is that you're just not dominant. Your reference to "giving her what she wants" pretty much gives that away.

There are a couple of possibilities - the first is that your natural dominance has been stunted by social and familial issues leading its suppression. If so, a program of intense depussification can see you disconnect from the your socially programmed emasculation and embrace your birthright.

Alternatively, you just might be genetically wired for submission. By that I mean your testosterone count is low and the physical features which normally distinguish men from women are muted or absent in your case.

You're cute. I identify as submissive but unless you're at a professional level, if you and I were to engage in almost any athletic competition, I would decimate you. If we were to engage in physical combat, we would probably have the same result. To boot, if we were both contestants on a game of Jeopardy, unless the Final Jeopardy category was "Ridiculous Pseudo-science" again I'd walk away victorious.

Your silly notions of gender ideas reek of ignorance and self-service. I have too much testosterone, buddy... and yet I want nothing more than for my lovely partner to sit on my face and give me some discipline....

Probably because I spent my life making people like you feel small enough that you need to beat your chest in masculine bravado constantly spouting about some false superiority on the internet.

-Raptor "The Alpha Sub" Jesus

< Message edited by TheRaptorJesus -- 6/20/2011 6:35:51 PM >

_____________________________

What if your God... were a motherfucking DINOSAUR?!

(in reply to Awareness)

Post #: 29

RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship - 6/21/2011 8:55:48 PM

curiousNkinky

Posts: 4
Joined: 3/24/2009
Status: offline

Update: Good News!

Well, we tried some things out. We experimented with a switch (as in a stick-like object, not another person) and some blindfolding. I found that having her blindfolded helped me be more demanding. I experimented with different paces, strengths, and patterns for about an hour. I was surprised how long it lasted without feeling like it. I was getting more into it as time went on, and my favorite part was sticking my fingers in her pussy, and asking her questions that made her think about what i was doing, who she obeyed, and why I could do as i pleased. She came fairly quickly after that and i found a thrill go thorough me as her pussy clenched around my fingers when she came. No faking it for me, no trying to sugar coat things for me, just real pleasure for her. It was a lot of fun. I've also gone to a really nice sex shop around here that has very knowledgeable staff. they recommended that I pick up The Topping Book and reading through that gave me a better perspective. So yeah, in short, I'm happy and so is she.It's still going to take a lot of work and more sessions, but I think this could work out. I must say though, I need a lot of practice being prepared. I felt like a klutz bumbling around for implements and trying to figure out what to make her do with so little practice.

As for the future, does anyone know of good places to start when it comes to slave training? I'm looking forward to making a new meaning to the "full service" menu in our house.

(in reply to TheRaptorJesus)

Post #: 30

RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship - 6/21/2011 9:50:41 PM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

Sounds good. I figured if you just relaxed, you'd do fine. [Gives Awareness a raspberry.]

See if there are any M/s groups close to you. See how others do M/s. The two of you deserve better than someone else's training (and it could be an attempt to steal her from you.) The only training you should do is how she should please YOU. Not someone else's agenda.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to curiousNkinky)

Post #: 31

RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship - 6/21/2011 10:04:05 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

Glad to hear the good news. Have fun!

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 32

RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship - 6/22/2011 1:03:37 AM

WyldHrt

Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

As for the future, does anyone know of good places to start when it comes to slave training? I'm looking forward to making a new meaning to the "full service" menu in our house.

Very glad to hear that you are exploring and having fun!

That said, the bolded portion reminded me very much of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68th8s0Z_LU
Methinks that gal is in twubble!!!

_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
Subby Mafia, VAA Posse & Team Troll!

(in reply to curiousNkinky)

Post #: 33

RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship - 6/22/2011 2:32:29 AM

Awareness

Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheRaptorJesus
You're cute. I identify as submissive but unless you're at a professional level, if you and I were to engage in almost any athletic competition, I would decimate you. If we were to engage in physical combat, we would probably have the same result. To boot, if we were both contestants on a game of Jeopardy, unless the Final Jeopardy category was "Ridiculous Pseudo-science" again I'd walk away victorious.

Your silly notions of gender ideas reek of ignorance and self-service. I have too much testosterone, buddy... and yet I want nothing more than for my lovely partner to sit on my face and give me some discipline....

Probably because I spent my life making people like you feel small enough that you need to beat your chest in masculine bravado constantly spouting about some false superiority on the internet.

I normally don't bother with the opinions of pathetic whiny male subs, but this was a gift. Not only do you demonstrate a clear inability to understand my original post, you also have no idea what the word "decimate" means. Given that, I'd say your notions of intellectual superiority are simply vainglorious boasting which is unfounded in reality.

Consequently it doesn't take much to imagine that your other two claims are more of the same. I'd probably give you the athletic competition since I'm getting on in years and your mindless enthusiasm is no doubt the product of youth, but that's as far as it goes. You're given to overestimating your abilities and underestimating your opponent. As anyone with experience knows, this is a product of incompetence.

< Message edited by Awareness -- 6/22/2011 2:34:36 AM >

_____________________________

Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

(in reply to TheRaptorJesus)

Post #: 34

RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship - 6/22/2011 2:47:46 AM

DeviantlyD

Posts: 4375
Joined: 5/26/2007
From: Hawai`i
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: curiousNkinky

One problem is that we both identify as subs.

The third problem is that ... I don't think I ever have been completely in the dom mindset.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

I'd say the problem here is that you're just not dominant.

Gee Awareness, what powerful deductive reasoning you have. :P

(in reply to curiousNkinky)

Post #: 35

RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship - 6/22/2011 9:49:43 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

Dominance, like ice cream, comes in many flavors because not everyone likes the same thing. Some people see bikers on Harleys and think "hot", some of us see overcompensating middle class nitwits. Some people see opening a car door for your partner as submissive, I see it as classy. Some people see you forcing your cock down your woman's throat and her gagging and unable to breath and get wet, others, not so much.

Be yourself, I am a mixture of soft and fluffy, mean and nasty, loving daddy and sick twisted daddy, and a whole bunch of other stuff, some of it polar opposites. It doesn't work for a lot of women but I don't want a lot of women so it works just fine for me.

The Topping Book is a good read, pick up Midori's book called The Wild Side of Sex and another called Screw the Roses, if those don't give you enough ideas, you are doing something wrong. Remember to see each other as partners and a team. Take care of her well and her submission will grow, great slaves are made by great relationships is my motto.

(in reply to DeviantlyD)

Post #: 36

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