Internalizing (Full Version)

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LillyBoPeep -> Internalizing (6/19/2011 9:59:58 PM)

I've been hesitant to post this topic, but i've been having some interesting conversations with a wonderfully insightful member of CM, which sorta lead up to the issue of someone attempting to internalize their role.
in my last relationship, i knew deep down that i wanted his ownership to be more concrete, but my own fear and insecurities often got in the way. i was often in a tangle in my own brain, trying to figure out how to get around them. =p so to the s-types, have you ever run into issues with "internalizing"? you self-define as something, but you know that sometimes you aren't living up to your potential or you're defeating yourself? how to you help yourself move forward?





peachgirl -> RE: Internalizing (6/19/2011 10:18:52 PM)

He calls me on it. [:D]

Seriously, when I allow myself to engage in behaviors that are counter-productive to our relationship and my personality as a whole, he will be the first to remind me: 1. That I choose to belong to him, and 2. I have asked him to be both my Master and Daddy. I am the one that asked him to be those things in my life, and that if I don't choose to obey, then what is the point? He doesn't want to be anything but those things to me, and I don't want to be in a relationship with anyone else.

I apologize if this sounds a bit vague, but it's close to my bedtime :)



LillyBoPeep -> RE: Internalizing (6/19/2011 10:22:43 PM)

that doesn't sound too vague at all. =)
in that relationship, he would call me on it, too, but i felt bad if he had to so i was constantly trying to figure out how to solve it "once and for all." there really is no "once and for all" with human beings, but you know what i mean. =p
i'm not currently in a relationship so it's all "theoretical" for me now; a relationship in the future would be different and some of the insecurities might be the same or they might not.
but i think it's still worthwhile to think about. thanks for replying. ^_^



catize -> RE: Internalizing (6/19/2011 10:50:19 PM)

quote:

how to you help yourself move forward?


I tend to do a lot of self talk. It has become second nature when I want to argue against something or have been asked to do something outside my comfort zone to ask myself 'will this harm me?' When I can honestly answer 'no, it won't' then it all becomes easier.



sirssubk2008 -> RE: Internalizing (6/20/2011 7:37:45 AM)

I started doing a lot of this before I came to CM. For me, it was the only way for me to find myself. Now, while new in my first D/s relationship, I still find mysef doing it. When self talk fails, I look to my Dom for help. I think because of the road that I took to get here, I will probably still be internalizing for a long time, but it is a learning process just like anything else.



LillyBoPeep -> RE: Internalizing (6/20/2011 7:49:21 AM)

i agree with the two of you; self-talk is a pretty valuable tool. a person can convince herself of anything, really, if she tires hard enough. ^_^ haha




NuevaVida -> RE: Internalizing (6/20/2011 8:26:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
you self-define as something, but you know that sometimes you aren't living up to your potential or you're defeating yourself? how to you help yourself move forward?


I realized I was trying to meet a definition and in doing so, wasn't being true to what came naturally to me.  So I knocked it off. [;)]

Seriously, I had this perfect description as "slave" in my mind, which had been confirmed by others as well, but oh the struggle, the constant struggle.  And when I found myself in a place where I could really explore myself and evaluate where I was coming from, I realized that living that particular definition did not come naturally to me, and caused more internal suffering than I wanted. I was not thriving.

So I had to re-evaluate and listen to what my gut was telling me along the way.  This is not to say I want an easy road (although hey, I wouldn't complain, right?), but I want the (dare I say) "organic" mean to shine through and thrive. 

I got a LOT of flak once at a dinner/discussion group, when a bunch of ladies were lamenting that they weren't "submissive enough." I asked, "Submissive enough for whom??"  I mean, they were all in these loving D/s relationships, and their dominant partners seemed pretty damn happy with them all.  I dared to suggest they just be who they are and do what comes naturally, and perhaps together (the ladies and their partners) could start from there and then gently shape where they'd like to go, as a team.

You'd have though I called them all a bunch of ugly bitches.  Some people are deathly afraid of self awareness.



sexyred1 -> RE: Internalizing (6/20/2011 9:02:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
you self-define as something, but you know that sometimes you aren't living up to your potential or you're defeating yourself? how to you help yourself move forward?


You'd have though I called them all a bunch of ugly bitches.  Some people are deathly afraid of self awareness.


You got that right as usual. It is very uncomfortable for some people. I am very self aware and continue to learn more about myself. After being with someone for a long time who completely lacked that quality, I find that this is one of the top criteria I have in meeting someone new. Sometimes it is hard to see immediately, but hopefully, I will be able to ascertain it better if there is an opportunity to do so.

Even when you are self aware, you can still ignore it; and not ignoring the red flags and not deluding yourself into believing something about a situation that is just not true, but you want it to be true, is the key to success.



leadership527 -> RE: Internalizing (6/20/2011 9:08:02 AM)

Carol's answer to the "how" was "I had no choice."

It's interesting to notice though that it wasn't me who was giving her "no choice". In point of fact I was desparately trying to give her exactly that choice AND encourage her to make it. I was the one saying that we could just do exactly as Nueva said. It was her who felt that wasn't a viable choice. Independent of what I was encouraging her to do, she knew that I would prefer to own her and she was not satisfied with anything other than what would make me the happiest.

So she found herself between a rock and a hard place of her own choosing. In the end, it was a Chief Joseph moment for her -- I will fight no more, forever. I find that an interesting analogy because Chief Joseph was also surrendering -- literally. Yet that line has gone down in history as one of strength, courage, and leadership.



NuevaVida -> RE: Internalizing (6/20/2011 10:49:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

You got that right as usual. It is very uncomfortable for some people. I am very self aware and continue to learn more about myself. After being with someone for a long time who completely lacked that quality, I find that this is one of the top criteria I have in meeting someone new. Sometimes it is hard to see immediately, but hopefully, I will be able to ascertain it better if there is an opportunity to do so.

Even when you are self aware, you can still ignore it; and not ignoring the red flags and not deluding yourself into believing something about a situation that is just not true, but you want it to be true, is the key to success.


I used to turn away from self-awareness myself, because I was afraid of what I might see.  I wasn't very happy with myself and I feared if I looked internally, I'd find out I was right about all of those self deprecating notions of mine..  But this was my first experience with literally a room full of people all coming down on me and challenging me for bringing it up.  I've since remembered what an issue this was for me in the past.  After all, someone who was self aware, implying I wasn't self aware - even though they were right - was insulting to me, and made me very defensive.

But I think pretty much everyone goes through that at some point in their lives.  No one comes out of the womb with self knowledge.  And I still have much to learn about myself, as well.  Now, however, if I feel defensive about something, I see it as an indicator that I need to look inside and figure out what's true about what's being said, that I'm looking the other way about.  It's not always easy, sometimes painful, but always enlightening.



juliaoceania -> RE: Internalizing (6/20/2011 11:18:04 AM)

My problem isn't internalizing, it is intellectualizing.

In other words, I think too fucking much



DesFIP -> RE: Internalizing (6/20/2011 2:27:12 PM)

How long was your past relationship? Because I don't think this does happen in a matter of months but years. Years of living together, not in a ldr relationship.



juliaoceania -> RE: Internalizing (6/20/2011 2:29:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

How long was your past relationship? Because I don't think this does happen in a matter of months but years. Years of living together, not in a ldr relationship.



Is that question for lilly, or for me, I wasn't sure if you were "fast replying"



sexyred1 -> RE: Internalizing (6/20/2011 2:39:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

My problem isn't internalizing, it is intellectualizing.

In other words, I think too fucking much


Join the club sista!



lally2 -> RE: Internalizing (6/20/2011 2:43:31 PM)

someone once said on here 'when you let go of the me and focus on the U/us it all gets easier'  and i completely agree with that.

in the end you can struggle all you like but if its what they want in the end youre going to have to either admit youre not able to let go or you let go.

its a funny thing this letting go thingy.  but once you have youll never look back, youll realise that its incredibly easy to do and at no time, at all, do you ever lose touch with youreself.  in fact if anything it increases youre self awareness.

for me personally its about trusting myself more than it is about trusting him.  after all i shouldnt be with him if i didnt trust him, that ship has already sailed, im with him, therefore i trust him.  the issue is with youreself, do you believe youre emotionally able to come through, are you strong enough and self assured enough that you can hand it over to him and let it fly.  part of that is taking responsibility for youre choices, when you realise you have then youre almost there.

it isnt much about thinking at all, infact you can over think youreself out of pretty much anything if you let youreself.  it really is about shutting up that little voice and saying to youreself 'im gonna go for it.  im gonna put myself squarely in his hands and let go'  believe me its the most wonderful feeling, its really freeing and the sub in you will float off into sub space and youll realise youve arrived in that hedonistic place youve been craving all this while.

i really miss it:)



leadership527 -> RE: Internalizing (6/20/2011 3:11:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
someone once said on here 'when you let go of the me and focus on the U/us it all gets easier'  and i completely agree with that.

THIS is our guiding light also. Merc said it really well once... "We both serve the relationship."

I have no room for "me" and "her" in our marriage. "Us" is taking up all the space. I think the rub there is that level of intimacy is more than a bit frightening and/or unwelcome for a lot of people. Not everyone wants to or is able to subsume their own "self" into a greater good.



Wolf2Bear -> RE: Internalizing (6/20/2011 3:52:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

I've been hesitant to post this topic, but i've been having some interesting conversations with a wonderfully insightful member of CM, which sorta lead up to the issue of someone attempting to internalize their role.
in my last relationship, i knew deep down that i wanted his ownership to be more concrete, but my own fear and insecurities often got in the way. i was often in a tangle in my own brain, trying to figure out how to get around them. =p so to the s-types, have you ever run into issues with "internalizing"? you self-define as something, but you know that sometimes you aren't living up to your potential or you're defeating yourself? how to you help yourself move forward?





I've run into this quite often. Much of the issues I find with myself is thinking too much which results in over thinking that leads to falling into a bad head space that isn't productive to the dynamic I am in. It is a struggle when I am walking a line between wanting to be the best I can be for my Sir and fitting it against the image of how I expect myself to be. essentially I have placed many high expectations on myself that logically I know I will never achieve.



lally2 -> RE: Internalizing (6/20/2011 4:00:37 PM)

hi Jeff, [:)]

speaking as a sub i would say the greatest difficulty is giving up the 'i want/need' for their 'I want/need'.  stopping myself from manipulating a situation to get a desired or favoured response. letting go of my immediate need for theirs.  responding when i dont feel like it. 

i look back at one of my early on relationships and wonder still.  the guy who kept waking me up at 2.00am for sex.  was that fair of him, was he thinking of u/Us at the time, knowng i had to get up in the morning for work when he didnt. 

sometimes its hard to be clear on things.  sometimes its hard to swollow unfair or thoughtless demands and feel that the U/us is being taken care of.  i remember in that situation the resentment i felt as i dragged myself out of bed, after yet another night of broken sleep while he slept blissfully on.  the desire to chuck cold water all over him crossed my mind a couple of times.

in an ideal world, ie, the polished perfection of internet idealism, all is possible and all is achievable.  sadly it isnt always the case.

the U/us is the key, but the U/us is quite hard to find.

i think that sometimes the U/us is translated as the sub gives her all and so the U/us is served.  not so, the Dominant has to be just as tuned into the U/us also.  i know you know that, [:)], im just saying, in this instance, with regard to this thread.  letting go is also dependent on the Dominant taking the U/us on board.  if He/She doesnt then that feared intimacy within the sub will persist.  letting go will not happen.

i think often that when a sub writes that theyre having problems with this and that and they cant relax and they cant let go and they find it hard to go that last inch its oftentimes because the Dominant theyre with does stuff that does not factor in U/us.

bopeep says that she felt she was failing her last guy because she couldnt let go.  i read from that, maybe, possibly, that he was not someone she felt she could completely let go with.  she is internalising the blame here, maybe, a little, when maybe she shouldnt.

and if thats all a load of wiffly waffle its because im tired and need to go to bed.

xx



leadership527 -> RE: Internalizing (6/20/2011 5:13:55 PM)

Well yeah Lally :)

Seriously. Let's assume for a moment that Carol is a totally functioning human being with the normal assortment of needs/wants/desires that go along with that. It makes sense in my mind that if Carol has subsumed her whole self into the marriage, then that must include all those needs/wants/desires. So "we" care about those things even while I am the "voice of us". In short, "us" only works if it's really "us". It can't be a code word for "me".

I think it helps a lot that I actually love Carol. So honestly all the talk about balance and responsibility and other things is moot because long before all of that stuff comes "I love her."



LillyBoPeep -> RE: Internalizing (6/20/2011 5:17:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
So "we" care about those things even while I am the "voice of us". In short, "us" only works if it's really "us". It can't be a code word for "me".


so true!
lally's example sounds like a guy being selfish. sure he's within his right to do that by the outlines of the relationship, but just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should.
an "us-type" of thought would be "well i'd like her to perform well at her job so she doesn't lose it, and we don't end up struggling financially, so maybe i'll handle this myself and fuck her later." =p
"Us" can't be code for "me." -- spot on.



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