RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life?

RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 1:46:47 PM)
quote: Is this the anthropoligical view? Because it has nothing to do with the law. Yes, in the United States, it isn't hard to sue for sexual harassment or anything else that someone decides they want to sue for. Your last quote "Sexual harassment creates a hostile, offensive, oppressive, or intimidating work environment and deprives its victim of his or her statutory right to work in a place free of discrimination, when the sexually harassing conduct sufficiently offends, humiliates, distresses or intrudes upon its ... www.losangelesemploymentlawyer.com/CM/Custom/Practice-Ar… " while written by an attorney advertising for business is NOT actually the legal standard, merely a guy looking to drum up business. Notice I posted several definitions, feel free to attempt to argue with yourself some more, you enjoy it so very much quote: I really don't mean to be rude, but you are an attorneys dream client. You are so ill informed about what the law really does as opposed to your personal opinion, they could milk you for huge fees on a worthless case. Yes you do mean to be rude, in fact you are quite adept at being rude. You cannot seemingly express an opinion without being rude... It is not enough to say "hey perhaps you didn't know this or that or the other" you have to get really nasty about it.

RapierFugue -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 1:49:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Yes you do mean to be rude, in fact you are quite adept at being rude. You cannot seemingly express an opinion without being rude... Ah cool, thanks. I thought I must be imagining things. Ta for that.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 1:51:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady A friend of mine who lives in Germany has told me that in Germany, such an employee would have to also bear your legal costs for filing a frivolous suit. That is one way to deter people from being overly litigious. Haven't lived in Germany for a while, but the frivolous law suit would be an additional fine that is slapped on, the legal costs of the other party is automatically born by the party who loses the law suit. As an example, I was sued by a landlord because his heater was rusty and broke, while filling up half of my flat with water (who knew they got that much water in them) and the flat underneath, since I am not an expert in heaters and it could not be reasonably demanded that I take the thing apart and check if anything is rusty (damage was not in plain sight) it was not my fault, so the landlord paid for the costs of my lawyer, who did little else than write a letter that it is not my responsibility and recommended an inspector (who confirmed), the inspector and the court costs, the lawyer's fees were not for writing the letter but for a percentage of the damages the landlord tried to sue me for. LC, I should have been more clear, because yes, the loser pays. I was just stating that in this case, since the employee could very likely not win, or in Rochsub's cases, those employees didn't win, they would have had to pay monies to the other side for expenses. I wasn't clear that it goes both ways. Going both ways not only insures that people don't file frivolous suits, but also makes sure the companies, landlords or such run their businesses in a way that they don't face lawsuits. Typically anyway, lol. Obviously, your previous landlord didn't get the memo. ETA: talking about dinner, typed "menu" instead of "memo."

juliaoceania -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 1:54:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RapierFugue quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Yes you do mean to be rude, in fact you are quite adept at being rude. You cannot seemingly express an opinion without being rude... Ah cool, thanks. I thought I must be imagining things. Ta for that. Its like when someone says "I don't mean to be brutally honest", or "I am not trying to be mean" or "I am not trying to insult you" any other such disclaimer, they really DO intend it, otherwise they wouldn't put that disclaimer out there to start with[8\|]

LafayetteLady -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 2:01:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: Is this the anthropoligical view? Because it has nothing to do with the law. Yes, in the United States, it isn't hard to sue for sexual harassment or anything else that someone decides they want to sue for. Your last quote "Sexual harassment creates a hostile, offensive, oppressive, or intimidating work environment and deprives its victim of his or her statutory right to work in a place free of discrimination, when the sexually harassing conduct sufficiently offends, humiliates, distresses or intrudes upon its ... www.losangelesemploymentlawyer.com/CM/Custom/Practice-Ar… " while written by an attorney advertising for business is NOT actually the legal standard, merely a guy looking to drum up business. Notice I posted several definitions, feel free to attempt to argue with yourself some more, you enjoy it so very much quote: I really don't mean to be rude, but you are an attorneys dream client. You are so ill informed about what the law really does as opposed to your personal opinion, they could milk you for huge fees on a worthless case. Yes you do mean to be rude, in fact you are quite adept at being rude. You cannot seemingly express an opinion without being rude... It is not enough to say "hey perhaps you didn't know this or that or the other" you have to get really nasty about it. You're right. When I see people like you and RF posting something like it is fact when you are obviously misinformed it is annoying. I AM brutally honest and make no apologies for it. I can't stand when people think they know everything and they don't. So while you are professing how I am "always" rude, perhaps you should see how I posted to LC, and LP. Not a bit of rudeness to it. So perhaps instead of whining about how rude I am (although not nearly as rude to you as Icarys), you should start thinking that maybe the problem originates with you (and RF) for attempting to profess knowledge you obviously don't have.

agirl -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 2:03:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Sort of. Some mild kinky flirting. Things like "That's a nice outfit, know what would make it even better? Handcuffs." or "You look good enough to tie up" or "I have a gag that would match that blouse.". Things like that. Before the thread went south on the work environment issue, that's the kind of thing I was thinking of. Son No3 got the washing in for me today,along with his friends, because I have an infected finger(yeah, poor baby).....I watched them through the study door, folding my little vests and couldn't resist * You lot are going to make great wives!* Yes, I mess with all sorts of people. My youngest son serves me when I'm holed up in bed...* I tease and say * Aha, my leetle slave-boy. I desire popcorn and tea. He trots off to do my bidding. When I massage my father and he directs me in any way, (my neck now, my neck) I jest that he needs a slave(then I tell him to shurrup). Being lighthearted is just that.......... as long as the being lighthearted on* is in on the joke too. Being teased was a big part of the musical group I belong to. The regulars got teased but not me. For the first few months hardly anyone teased ME. I appeared too shy and wobbly. When I first got teased I felt part of the group. Ok, now, I am fair game and I'm happy to be the butt of a few of the running jokes( usually about the key I play in). And I get to turn the table now and then by suggesting that I'm going play in B flat 7th or something. Timing is all :) agirl

LadyConstanze -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 2:08:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady LC, I should have been more clear, because yes, the loser pays. I was just stating that in this case, since the employee could very likely not win, or in Rochsub's cases, those employees didn't win, they would have had to pay monies to the other side for expenses. I wasn't clear that it goes both ways. Going both ways not only insures that people don't file frivolous suits, but also makes sure the companies, landlords or such run their businesses in a way that they don't face lawsuits. Typically anyway, lol. Obviously, your previous landlord didn't get the memo. ETA: talking about dinner, typed "menu" instead of "memo." I'm not familiar with who pays what in the US, though I always assumed that the loser has to pay for the court costs and the legal costs of the other side, same as here? I seem to remember some stuff that big companies tend to drag lawsuits through several instances (sp) with appeals in the hope that the other party will run out of money?

juliaoceania -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 2:10:45 PM)
Tell me, where did I say anything about the burden of proof necessary to win a case? I never made any claim other than a person CAN sue for sexual harassment if they perceive themselves to have been a victim of it. Also, the perception of sexual harassment is that of the victim. If an employee complains about the way a coworker talks to them, and they feel as though they have been the target of sexual innuendo, the employer has the duty to create an environment where the employee feels safe and unthreatened. If the employer fails to do so and the language continues to be directed at the employee from coworkers or management, that meets the definition of sexual harassment. In other words, I complain to my employer that my supervisor wants me to call her mistress, and I feel as though this is a sexual thing, the employer does nothing to mitigate that behavior towards me, and the superviser continues to speak to me in that way, yes... I do have a case. The way to prove that case was never an issue, what I was saying is that it is a form of sexual harassment if the person perceives it to be, complains about it, and receives no redress Now, I know you think it is a wonderful thing to make yourself appear knowledgeable at the expense of others, but it doesn't, it only makes you look like a bully to me... not that you care what I think... Furthermore, how another poster posts to me seems to be one of the most silly of excuses to post nastily, what, you follow other people's examples of how it is acceptable to post? How very sad.

agirl -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 2:12:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Yes you do mean to be rude, in fact you are quite adept at being rude. You cannot seemingly express an opinion without being rude... It is not enough to say "hey perhaps you didn't know this or that or the other" you have to get really nasty about it. I have to be a bit too English............ you really think that is nasty? agirl

juliaoceania -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 2:14:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Yes you do mean to be rude, in fact you are quite adept at being rude. You cannot seemingly express an opinion without being rude... It is not enough to say "hey perhaps you didn't know this or that or the other" you have to get really nasty about it. I have to be a bit too English............ you really think that is nasty? agirl Not exactly flaming no... But she admitted she intended to be rude.

RapierFugue -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 2:15:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Its like when someone says "I don't mean to be brutally honest", or "I am not trying to be mean" or "I am not trying to insult you" any other such disclaimer, they really DO intend it, otherwise they wouldn't put that disclaimer out there to start with[8\|] My fave is "with the greatest of respect" ... you can pretty much guarantee that whatever follows it isn't going to be in the least respectful :)

juliaoceania -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 2:17:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RapierFugue quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Its like when someone says "I don't mean to be brutally honest", or "I am not trying to be mean" or "I am not trying to insult you" any other such disclaimer, they really DO intend it, otherwise they wouldn't put that disclaimer out there to start with[8\|] My fave is "with the greatest of respect" ... you can pretty much guarantee that whatever follows it isn't going to be in the least respectful :) People who use devices like this to communicate seem very passive aggressive to me, just my opinion

LadyConstanze -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 2:19:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Tell me, where did I say anything about the burden of proof necessary to win a case? I never made any claim other than a person CAN sue for sexual harassment if they perceive themselves to have been a victim of it. Also, the perception of sexual harassment is that of the victim. If an employee complains about the way a coworker talks to them, and they feel as though they have been the target of sexual innuendo, the employer has the duty to create an environment where the employee feels safe and unthreatened. If the employer fails to do so and the language continues to be directed at the employee from coworkers or management, that meets the definition of sexual harassment. In other words, I complain to my employer that my supervisor wants me to call her mistress, and I feel as though this is a sexual thing, the employer does nothing to mitigate that behavior towards me, and the superviser continues to speak to me in that way, yes... I do have a case. The way to prove that case was never an issue, what I was saying is that it is a form of sexual harassment if the person perceives it to be, complains about it, and receives no redress Now, I know you think it is a wonderful thing to make yourself appear knowledgeable at the expense of others, but it doesn't, it only makes you look like a bully to me... not that you care what I think... Furthermore, how another poster posts to me seems to be one of the most silly of excuses to post nastily, what, you follow other people's examples of how it is acceptable to post? How very sad. Julia, now for a change I don't want to be rude, but where is the point in suing if you know you aren't going to win? That seems like a complete waste of money to me, hence why I said I would go for the things that stick like the bullying and the smack, instead of watering down the issue with sexual harassment if it is not sure that this will stick and it will only make you appear to sue happy, and which could backfire not only in the legal case but also when seeking other employment. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Iamsemisweet -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 2:32:55 PM)
Lady Constanze, In the US, unless there is a contractual provision or a statute to the contrary (and there aren't many), each side pays their own attorney fees.

agirl -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 2:35:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RapierFugue quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Its like when someone says "I don't mean to be brutally honest", or "I am not trying to be mean" or "I am not trying to insult you" any other such disclaimer, they really DO intend it, otherwise they wouldn't put that disclaimer out there to start with[8\|] My fave is "with the greatest of respect" ... you can pretty much guarantee that whatever follows it isn't going to be in the least respectful :) I'm not jesting....... The passive-aggressive thing gets little press here. It's never caught on. Maybe we veil our insults in such a way that we KNOW they are insults but best manners apply all the same :) RF is right, when we hear with the greatest respect...we known damn well that we need to be getting creative. agirl

LadyConstanze -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 3:04:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet Lady Constanze, In the US, unless there is a contractual provision or a statute to the contrary (and there aren't many), each side pays their own attorney fees. Thanks for that, that seems odd to me, in Europe usually you cover the charges the other party encountered (within reason - they can't bill you for a gazillion dollars/euros or pounds on trumped up costs) in case you lose, that includes the costs for them traveling to the court, their legal costs, court costs and expenses. I might be biased but it makes sense and stops people with a lawyer friend eager to sue from suing randomly and frivolously.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 3:12:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet Lady Constanze, In the US, unless there is a contractual provision or a statute to the contrary (and there aren't many), each side pays their own attorney fees. The problem goes beyond this though. The other cost is in lost productivity. Each time I've gone to court, it's cost me at least one complete day of work. Moreover, I've usually had to drag an employee or two in to serve as witnesses, so they also lost a complete day of work. If my employees are testifying instead of working, that costs me money. Pulling 2 employees out of work and bringing them to court to testify is going to cost me a minimum of $1,500 in lost revenue. So even if I win, I still lose.

RapierFugue -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 3:16:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009 The problem goes beyond this though. The other cost is in lost productivity. Each time I've gone to court, it's cost me at least one complete day of work. Moreover, I've usually had to drag an employee or two in to serve as witnesses, so they also lost a complete day of work. If my employees are testifying instead of working, that costs me money. Pulling 2 employees out of work and bringing them to court to testify is going to cost me a minimum of $1,500 in lost revenue. So even if I win, I still lose. Ah ... someone who does know what he's talking about. Then there's expert witnesses, Private Investigator fees, tests (where applicable), evidence gathering costs, reputation, etc., and that's without touching the legal costs. It's a pricey old game and no mistake.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 3:18:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009 quote: ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet Lady Constanze, In the US, unless there is a contractual provision or a statute to the contrary (and there aren't many), each side pays their own attorney fees. The problem goes beyond this though. The other cost is in lost productivity. Each time I've gone to court, it's cost me at least one complete day of work. Moreover, I've usually had to drag an employee or two in to serve as witnesses, so they also lost a complete day of work. If my employees are testifying instead of working, that costs me money. Pulling 2 employees out of work and bringing them to court to testify is going to cost me a minimum of $1,500 in lost revenue. So even if I win, I still lose. But since those are costs you encounter, it doesn't make sense that the other party doesn't have to pay for it. So basically if I want to put a competitor out of business, I could just make sure a bunch of his employees sue him, like if I had a family member who happens to be a lawyer and is not busy, I could mess up your business rather cheaply, then take over that business and the increased profit will easily pay for the legal costs...

Rochsub2009 -> RE: Do you mess with the vanilla's in your life? (6/29/2011 3:27:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze So basically if I want to put a competitor out of business, I could just make sure a bunch of his employees sue him, like if I had a family member who happens to be a lawyer and is not busy, I could mess up your business rather cheaply, then take over that business and the increased profit will easily pay for the legal costs... Fortunately, most of my competitors aren't as ruthless as you obviously are. [:D] (But in truth, it would be harder for you to do that than you think. My employees want to keep their jobs. So suing me is not a good idea. Unless you paid them their lost wages and more, they wouldn't go along with your devious plan).

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