RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (Full Version)

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Termyn8or -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/2/2011 3:28:54 AM)

Made contact, yup, it's all the same right ? They said the same things right ?

ETA :Polite, I know that was totally in a different context.

T^T



tweakabelle -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/2/2011 3:58:22 PM)

It's interesting to note the virtual silence from the Zionist lobby on this question (especially compared to their voluble contribution to another current thread on Israel). The Zionist lobby doesn't enjoy a reputation for reticence or subtlety.

Despite being posed repeatedly, the question remains unanswered: "How does the US benefit from its alliance with Israel?"

There have been numerous mentions of the downsides, of the many ways this alliance harms US interests. Yet despite a claim the US and Israeli interests are "pretty much" identical, no one has yet nominated a single positive to flow the US's way from its alliance with Israel. In cash terms, in direct grants and aid alone, this relationship has cost the US taxpayer c$100 billion.

Does this silence reflect the fact that there aren't any gains for the US? Is it the case that there isn't a single advantage or gain the US obtains from its alliance with Israel? Are all the advantages on the Israeli side? Has Israel ripped off the US taxpayer for a cool $100 billion? And given precisely zilch back in return?



Musicmystery -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/2/2011 3:59:33 PM)

Will there come a time when "silence" isn't conveniently spun to invent a representation of others' positions?



tweakabelle -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/2/2011 4:03:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Will there come a time when "silence" isn't conveniently spun to invent a representation of others' positions?

I'd love to hear these "other positions" you are referring to. That's the whole point of my asking the questions that I asked.

BTW please note that questions and "spin" are two different things.



Musicmystery -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/2/2011 4:08:51 PM)

Sure.

A paragraph that begins with "Does this silence reflect...." followed by a string of rhetorical questions speculating about the reasons for that silence is construing positions.

Perhaps that wasn't your intent. But it's certainly how it reads.



tweakabelle -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/2/2011 5:04:45 PM)

That's two posts now and you still haven't mentioned a single benefit the US obtains from its alliance with Israel. Or even come close.

And a grand total of 65 posts without any one nominating a single benefit. Or even come close.

So are US interests advanced by its alliance with Israel? If your answer is affirmative, please specify these benefits.



Politesub53 -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/2/2011 5:05:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Made contact, yup, it's all the same right ? They said the same things right ?

ETA :Polite, I know that was totally in a different context.

T^T


I am not sure what you are saying here Term ?  On one or two threads several of our republican posters are making lots of noise about the President making contact with the MB. I am just asking them why they didnt shout out when GWB did the same thing. The silence is defening. One thing thats good to see is the US saying they will recognise the need for dialogue with a democratically elected government.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=227381&R=R3



Musicmystery -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/2/2011 5:06:52 PM)

Why would I? I'm not the one you're trying to goad.

But seriously, you can't think of any positive aspects of a strong ally in the Middle East?



tweakabelle -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/2/2011 5:16:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Why would I? I'm not the one you're trying to goad.

But seriously, you can't think of any positive aspects of a strong ally in the Middle East?

Are you saying that that constitutes a benefit to the US that drives from its alliance to Israel?



Musicmystery -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/2/2011 5:18:42 PM)

You see...now we're back to my original post about you construing arguments from what's unsaid.

You're just going to have to wait for someone who wants to play with you. I'm not debating Israel on an Internet board.



Termyn8or -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/2/2011 6:15:40 PM)

"But seriously, you can't think of any positive aspects of a strong ally in the Middle East? "

A strong ally that we have to defend ? Who all they can do it whine about the scuds and have us do their fucking dirty work ? Sure they're strong, they got nukes and everything, but they won't use them locally because it would fuck up their place, the place OUR MONEY and BLOOD gave them. But they do have a Sword Of Damacles over all European capitals. The have boasted about it although not on the TV.

Just get out and let them do their own fucking dirty work I say, we are running out of money and blood. You wanna support their asses, write a fucking check, AND NOT ON MY BANK ACCOUNT.

T^T



tweakabelle -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/2/2011 9:16:18 PM)

Looking at it strategically, out of the all the nations in the region, why choose an ally with no resources, a tiny population and loathed by virtually every other State in the region, including the States who own the US's primary strategic interest in the areas - the oil States??

There are benefits in having a strong ally, but if the ally is only strong because the US has armed and equipped it, and it comes with the amount of baggage that Israel does, can this alliance be said to be beneficial to US interests?

There are far better strategic options available to the US than Israel.



Musicmystery -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/2/2011 9:20:50 PM)

Whom did you have in mind?



Termyn8or -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/2/2011 9:37:42 PM)

Tweaks, one word - money. The money that Israel's elites control is considerable, and really they don't care about it much, but that country is like their pet project. Noone can imagine this kind of wealth. Remember me saying that there are people on this planet who could buy and sell Bill Gates with pocket change ? Guess who. Since Crassus the same game has been going on. Do you think that wealth disappeared ?

Old money, VERY old money. They came to the table able - to buy any pot, any country. You have to be a true gambler to understand, and we are few. And it really is not whether we win or lose, the difference is in how we play the game. I am nowhere near the calibre of these people, I wouldn't even suggest it, but as an apprentice can explain the actions of the master, I can tell you that the thought process if vastly different than anyone could imagine.

What schools did Amsel Rothchild (Maher)'s kids go to, and what happened to all the money ? There is no record. Just like there is no record of alot of things. Call it suscpicion if you want, but for me, I see it. I have tuned in to figuring out by the results, and thinking backwards to the actions. The fact is that the rich get richer. If you were rich, would you make it so the rich get poorer ? I wouldn't and I don't host any of this panky wanky idealism of charity. I will let people die.

But not MY people.

I am not kidding, I see starving children on TV and I think someone should go kill their Parents, if you can call them that. There is human, and then there is something else. That is how they think, and that is how I think. If I need a facade to be accepted, I would rather not be accepted. The game of life is for keeps. Religion and all that shit was all part of the plan. Sorry we didn't get out of the trees soon enough to counter it, they have won.

In the Bible there is the end times, the armageddon, the apocolypse. They wrote it because they knew it would eventualy come to an end. And it will, for them. The end of the world predicted is not for everyone, it is for them. But they didn't have to be so fucking nasty along the way.

Now do you understand ?

T^T



popeye1250 -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/2/2011 9:45:49 PM)

If Oblunder would be "neutral" on Israel that'd be fine, that's the way it should be. But he's giving money to Arab countries, talking with Hamas and other terrorist orgs and supports Palistinians and is getting us involved in Libya.
Who's next, Syria?
He's got a blathering Sec of State who he has no control over and who has long been known to be anti-Israel.
It's a common theme in Yahoo News message boards that Oblunder is ignoring our country and focusing on foreign countries.



Termyn8or -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/2/2011 9:52:27 PM)

He should pops. You might not see it that way but have a look at the bigger picture. Even a rep from England said " for that shitty little country ? ". Everyone else knows it, it's time for us to wake up. Not me, I have been aware for a long time, but it is time for the good people of this country to stop allowing themselves to be mislead - into the abyss. This country is already fucked, and WHY ? And will Israel save US ?

Worthless friends are worthless.

T^T



rawtape -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/3/2011 10:44:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
There are far better strategic options available to the US than Israel.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Whom did you have in mind?

Robert Baer's book, The Devil We Know: Dealing with the New Iranian Superpower, actually makes a pretty decent case for aligning with Iran.

But even without reading that, there are a number of reasons for allying with Iran. These include:

* They have oil.
* They could effectively block shipping through the Straits of Hormuz causing oil prices to reach stratospheric levels.
* The clergy/government actually acts rationally (even if it doesn't appear so from the figurehead Ahmadinejad's blatherings or how they are generally presented in the American press).
* They have extraordinary influence in Iraq (Shiite majority).
* They are bitterly opposed to al-Qaeda and have influence in Afghanistan.
* Aligning with them would be a strategic move against China. Currently, Iran has observer status, but is not yet a member of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisatgion (think China-Russian version of NATO).
* Their masses are generally the most pro-Western among the Middle East Muslims (it's interesting, though -- many Americans view them through the lens of the Hostage crisis; Iranians view the US through the lens of the CIA-led coup against Mosaddegh, their democratically elected PM).
* There's a fairly good chance that the regions with Shiite majority ruled by a Sunni minority will eventually be governed by the Shias (for instance, Bahrain, where the Fifth Fleet is headquartered, and oil-rich regions of Saudi Arabia and some Gulf Sheikhdoms).
* Having Iran as an ally would prevent Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf Sheikdoms from thinking that the US was necessarily beholden to them.



Musicmystery -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/3/2011 10:46:51 AM)

An interesting case.

Of course, it's not an either/or proposition.



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/3/2011 11:44:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

An interesting case.

Of course, it's not an either/or proposition.


An interesting case if you ignore their sponsorship of terrorism and fundamentalist leadership that will never waiver from its goal of a world of only Muslims.



Musicmystery -> RE: Israel: A Lens for Viewing Obama? (7/3/2011 12:22:32 PM)

"Interesting" is a musician term:

"How did you like the performance?"
"It was...interesting."



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