The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (Full Version)

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Errastas -> The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/2/2011 1:30:20 PM)

I came across a quote recently which rung a bell.

It is more often the role of the master to understand what the sub likes without discussing it and even if the sub is unaware of this.

I'm interested in your opinions on that. I'm also interested in if male sub/female dom relationships are similar or distinctly different in individuals experience.

For you information and the protective, Note: I understand it's anecdotal discussion; no need to worry about making statements which describe your dom/sub experiences and then thinking people will misinterpret those into 'this isn't true for mine, you are making it up!'



DecadentDesire -> RE: The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/2/2011 1:50:31 PM)

My opinion is that's a pretty silly way to approach the issue of finding out what your girl likes. Simply asking her saves a lot of time and game playing.

Also, I'm not sure what the connection is with "Instinct" as you listed in your title. Instinct tells me when something is bothering or upsetting my girl. It doesn't inform me of her opinion on peanuts vs almonds as a topping for ice cream.



foxling -> RE: The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/2/2011 1:53:25 PM)

I think it's possible for people to make really good guesses based on previous points of interest and things that have gone well - for example, if your sub really likes having a hand held over their mouth it's probably fair to extrapolate that to presume that they would like having their mouth gaffer taped closed. Does that makes sense? In terms of using logical deductions more than outright guesses.

I really don't think it's fair to expect any dominant party to know what I like unless I tell them about it, I think that undermines the finer points of communication but also opens people up to a whole world of risks they might not have forseen. And yes, adequate risk assessment for introducing things can minimise dangers but if you go blindly in assuming that you know the sub better than they know themselves, that just seems like someone's about to get a not entirely pleasant shock. If my dom started claiming he knew my tastes better than I did, I'd be very close to being very annoyed with him. On the other hand, it might just be to do with the way you approach it - if I was told that something new was going to happen and just to trust him, that would probably be absolutely fine. So all I've really done in this post is confuse myself, thus I'll be clicking away now!



SunNoble -> RE: The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/2/2011 1:55:23 PM)

Master Sun in the house....Yes I think it is the job of a wise Master is to be able to read her sub. Some things initially are very important. I always insist on a BDSM checklist before beginning my courtship of a sub. It saves time and continues to be an invaluable tool for the duration of the contract. A set contract length is also a good idea, atleast initially. I believe in three collars....courtship...training...life. Life Collar is more like a marriage and most esteemed. Laughs out Loud here, I am a Lesbian, but end up with more male subs than I know what to do with. I have a unique relationship with each individual sub, regardless of gender.



DesFIP -> RE: The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/2/2011 2:09:50 PM)

Laughing at foxling's example. I love his hand over my mouth. I have immediate panic attacks with a tape gag.

So no, you can't go by instinct. What you can do is read her reactions. Does her body get rigid? Then she hates it. Do her eyes go huge but the body doesn't change? Then she's wavering on the cusp between like and dislike. Do her eyes flutter closed and the body softens? Home run.

However if you're quick enough at reading muscle reactions and responding immediately it will appear as though you're mind reading.



LadyPact -> RE: The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/2/2011 2:13:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Errastas

I came across a quote recently which rung a bell.

It is more often the role of the master to understand what the sub likes without discussing it and even if the sub is unaware of this.

I'm interested in your opinions on that. I'm also interested in if male sub/female dom relationships are similar or distinctly different in individuals experience.

For you information and the protective, Note: I understand it's anecdotal discussion; no need to worry about making statements which describe your dom/sub experiences and then thinking people will misinterpret those into 'this isn't true for mine, you are making it up!'

My opinion is that it's crap.  Nowhere in the job description for being the Dominant in a relationship does "mind reader" get included on the list.



littlewonder -> RE: The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/2/2011 2:40:10 PM)

for me this has nothing to do with bdsm and all to do with a normal relationship between people who love and care enough to pay attention



Wolf2Bear -> RE: The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/2/2011 3:02:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DecadentDesire

My opinion is that's a pretty silly way to approach the issue of finding out what your girl likes. Simply asking her saves a lot of time and game playing.

Also, I'm not sure what the connection is with "Instinct" as you listed in your title. Instinct tells me when something is bothering or upsetting my girl. It doesn't inform me of her opinion on peanuts vs almonds as a topping for ice cream.



Exactly



poise -> RE: The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/2/2011 3:29:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Errastas


"It is more often the role of the master to understand what the sub likes"'

I disagree, if I may. While I think any healthy relationship will have each being
intuitive as to what the other likes or dislikes, I feel it is more often the role of
the submissive to understand what the Dominant/Master likes. And act accordingly.



LadyConstanze -> RE: The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/2/2011 3:51:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

My opinion is that it's crap.  Nowhere in the job description for being the Dominant in a relationship does "mind reader" get included on the list.




But compatibility and fast reactions can often be mistaken for such, the problem is you can't always rely on them. In my book feedback and communication is the best, additionally go with instincts, essentially a relationship is a relationship, the vanilla or BDSM stuff is an undercurrent, if the people don't mesh, flavour doesn't matter



angelikaJ -> RE: The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/2/2011 5:53:15 PM)

There are pieces of my heart and soul my Master has been able to intuit from other things I have told him.

However, you are treading very close to something that new submissives tend to run into a lot: mystical doms.
Doms who just know what lies within the minds and hearts of strangers they haven't even met yet.
And some of the newbies don't know that this email that they've received telling them how singularly special they are is just a cut & paste job.

My Master knows me because of the questions He has asked; because of the slave journal that I keep and because I have been with him for quite a bit longer than 5 minutes.

I think a Master who really knows the person who submits to him or her will often discern subtle cues... but this whole "without discussion" bit is circumventing one of the most important things in any relationship: communication.



leadership527 -> RE: The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/2/2011 5:59:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Errastas
It is more often the role of the master to understand what the sub likes without discussing it and even if the sub is unaware of this.

As others have noted, my plan A is always just to ask. Ferreting out stuff is plan B, useful when plan A doesn't work -- meaning Carol doesn't know the answer so we must both uncover it.

I'm also not real big on the whole "sub is unaware" thing. Why would she be unaware? I think perhaps once in the 4 years she's been collared to me and maybe, maybe twice in the entire 16 year long relationship have I been faced with a situation where I wanted the answer to a question but asking her the question would skew the answer in non-productive ways.



Musicmystery -> RE: The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/2/2011 6:02:36 PM)

quote:

I came across a quote recently which rung a bell.

It is more often the role of the master to understand what the sub likes without discussing it and even if the sub is unaware of this.

I'm interested in your opinions on that.


Well, tell you what.

Try it out. See how it works out for you.

When the bell stops ringing, follow Jeff's advice above.




Awareness -> RE: The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/2/2011 6:04:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Errastas

I came across a quote recently which rung a bell.

It is more often the role of the master to understand what the sub likes without discussing it and even if the sub is unaware of this.
  No.  It's the role of the dominant to understand the sub.



LafayetteLady -> RE: The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/2/2011 8:50:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

for me this has nothing to do with bdsm and all to do with a normal relationship between people who love and care enough to pay attention


This^^^^

If you replace dominant/submissive with partner, you have a very vanilla relationship where people care about each other.

Neither side should be making more of an effort to *know* their partner. After a couple of people have been in a relationship for a while, yes, they likely know "instinctively" what their partner will or won't like, but it shouldn't fall more on the dominant or the submissive. After some years in a relationship, people just become very in tune with each other. Did you ever see those old couple who have been together for years and years and how they start to even look and exhibit the same phrases and hand motions? We all pick up traits of those close to us (hopefully only the good or innocuous ones). It is sociological thing.



Focus50 -> RE: The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/3/2011 4:33:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Errastas

I came across a quote recently which rung a bell.

It is more often the role of the master to understand what the sub likes without discussing it and even if the sub is unaware of this.

I'm interested in your opinions on that. I'm also interested in if male sub/female dom relationships are similar or distinctly different in individuals experience.

For you information and the protective, Note: I understand it's anecdotal discussion; no need to worry about making statements which describe your dom/sub experiences and then thinking people will misinterpret those into 'this isn't true for mine, you are making it up!'


I think being observant is one of the more useful Dominants traits, so yeah, I'll agree that I don't need to ask and discuss all things with the girl when I can see from her own body language. And yeah (again), it's not unusual for a sub to be surprised at how she's reacted to certain stimuli so discussing it beforehand may not necessarily have been informative....

That said, all things are open to discussion anyway, esp if we've never tried something before.

I think the dangerous factor of such a sweeping statement (or ethic) is that inevitably a mistake or accident will happen because the "master" has become conditioned to not checking in with his sub.

Focus.



kalikshama -> RE: The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/3/2011 4:43:28 AM)

quote:

It is more often the role of the master to understand what the sub likes without discussing it and even if the sub is unaware of this.


I think good verbal and non-verbal communication on BOTH ends is the key to healthy relationships. Different things translate better in different mediums.

What does this mean "even if the sub is unaware of this?" I may be conflicted as to what I like, but unaware, never. This smacks a bit of God complex to me.



foxling -> RE: The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/3/2011 5:10:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Laughing at foxling's example. I love his hand over my mouth. I have immediate panic attacks with a tape gag.

I kind of think that's the point I ended up at - even if you make these kinds of logical assumptions, there's still massive potential for it to go horribly wrong. It's far more important to talk and communicate about likes and dislikes rather than march in like the big star and start telling people that you know what they like and don't like even when they don't. Different things trigger different people; some of my triggers for panic are hopelessly random and seemingly insignificant.



KnightofMists -> RE: The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/3/2011 7:14:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DecadentDesire

My opinion is that's a pretty silly way to approach the issue of finding out what your girl likes. Simply asking her saves a lot of time and game playing.



and it's equally pretty silly to only take what one's charge says without considering other sources of information. It's a balance... one way or the other is not particularly open to maximum effectiveness in my view.



UberBrat -> RE: The Sub/Dom Relationship and Instinct (7/3/2011 10:08:18 AM)

I don't agree with that all.  While he may well be able to accurately predict how I would feel about something, I wouldnt expect that.  He isn't psychic after all.  And, when we're trying something new, we do talk quite a bit about how we're both feeling, and he asks me about my reactions to something.  I feel that he is quite tuned in to me, and is quite often able to tell how I'm feeling without asking me, but I don't expect that of him. 

I can't really see a situation in which he wouldn't feel comfortable, or able, to ask me a question, rather than trying to just mind read.



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