RE: Ronald Reagan (Full Version)

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Arpig -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/6/2011 2:55:35 PM)

quote:

What did he do that was good? How did he help the US? What positive results did his administration deliver?
He handled the final critical stages of the Cold War masterfully. SDI was brilliant. Brilliantly conceived and executed. It was this stage, where the USSR was imploding under the weight of unsustainable Cold War expenditures that was the most dangerous. People with their backs to the wall often decide they have nothing to loose. The way he played Gorbachev was beautiful. Statesmanship at its best, poetry in motion to a historian type.

Other than that...not so much.





jlf1961 -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/6/2011 2:56:51 PM)

Remember "trickle down Economics" aka "Reaganomics" well it did not work then and it will not work now, although the conservative idiots are going to push it again.




Politesub53 -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/6/2011 5:25:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

One thing I will give him full credit for is starting meaningful talks on reducing nuclear weapons.


I can't quite remember, was that before or after the failure of the Star Wars project ?



I have spoken out against "Star Wars" more than once. The two dont equate though, since they serve different purposes. Then again, you already knew that.




jlf1961 -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/6/2011 5:59:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

What did he do that was good? How did he help the US? What positive results did his administration deliver?


He handled the final critical stages of the Cold War masterfully. SDI was brilliant. Brilliantly conceived and executed. It was this stage, where the USSR was imploding under the weight of unsustainable Cold War expenditures that was the most dangerous. People with their backs to the wall often decide they have nothing to loose. The way he played Gorbachev was beautiful. Statesmanship at its best, poetry in motion to a historian type.

Other than that...not so much.




Lets see, SDI aka "Star Wars" never got very far, the cost was preventative, we still dont have the technology promised in the plan, and what was actually paid out was never recouped.





dcnovice -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/6/2011 6:25:46 PM)

Let's not forget making ketchup a vegetable.

[image]http://ronwade.freeservers.com/antireagan2009line2-1x3.jpg[/image]




Lucylastic -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/6/2011 6:29:32 PM)

Im trying hard to find something nice to say about the guy, I really am, but I still gots nothing.




Arpig -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/6/2011 6:38:42 PM)

quote:

Lets see, SDI aka "Star Wars" never got very far
It was never intended to

quote:

the cost was preventative
That was the point

quote:

we still dont have the technology promised in the plan
There never was any real intention to deliver

quote:

and what was actually paid out was never recouped.
It was, in spades.

Now look over my answers and think about them a while, then come back and answer this question: "What was the actual purpose of SDI/Star Wars?"




jlf1961 -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/6/2011 7:37:34 PM)

the money was never recouped, no matter what you want to revise history to say.

And, let us not forget, IRAN-CONTRA




Arpig -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/6/2011 8:06:39 PM)

What was the purpose of SDI/Star Wars?

Without that answer, you can't possibly know if the money achieved what it was intended to, can you?

Remember, I'm not a Republican, I'm a freaking ultra left-wing raving loonie socialist pinko. I just happen to know what was going on with SDI, which you clearly don't.




Musicmystery -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/6/2011 8:27:56 PM)

And right now, you sound as kooky as the other conspiracy theorists here.

Sorry.




Arpig -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/6/2011 9:05:26 PM)

SDI was intended to bankrupt the USSR. that's it. The whole star wars approach was used so that the US could spend more money than the Soviets could afford to on an ostensibly military project. The money was used to fund a lot of research into some esoteric areas of research with potentially enormous non-military applications. Areas that wouldn't otherwise have gotten much funding. Lasars, ballistic properties of moving objects in low/zero gravity environments, methods of disabling satellites, safe methods of removing a satellite from orbit once it's usefulness was done, focused microwave & lasar based telecommunications systems, generating plasma, and so on. A lot of important cutting edge research in some peripheral fields.

The space-based missile defense was never an actual serious aim. Spending money the USSR could not, was. The Soviets had to start their own SDI-like program in order to not be caught defenseless. The US had the cash, the Sovs didn't.

This was the culmination of a strategy for defeating the USSR without risking nuclear war developed in the 50s, primarily by Adm. Rickover.

Not a conspiracy, simply a policy to pursue a very serious and earnest war through economic rather than military means. The west had the bucks and the east didn't, so we spent them into the ground.




servantforuse -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/6/2011 9:27:34 PM)

I'd comment on Reagan, but you liberals on here seem to have a pretty good circle jerk going on right now. Why interupt it..




FirstQuaker -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/6/2011 9:34:34 PM)

Arpig has is right, that the US actually could build such a system with some money and work, so the Russians were faced with a real threat.And the Russians are not fools, they have some world class scientific people, who told the Soviets that the United States could in fact crank up such a project, and that it would potentially work, with some significant degree of functionality.

And it wasn't just the money, what Stalin did to get the Russians functional nuclear weapons in the first place shows what they are capable of doing when they thought there was a need and devoted the full power of their communist state to the task.

The Russians simply did not have the electronic technology to build the targeting and telemetry systems the United States could. At the time a Russian ICM was lucky to have a CEP of several kilometers, while the United States was successfully working on missles and cruise missles that would reliably hit within several meters of their targets, and already had CEPs in the 50 meter area. You need very good fast computers and compact rad hardened ones too, along with very good sensors to select and hit targets the size of a sofa moving many times the speed of a rifle bullet in curved trajectories, at a range of thousands of miles and cheap enough to be mass produced and contained aboard autonomous and disposable weapons arrays. In short, the United States had the silicon technology and the Soviets did not.

And the result of this lead to the nuclear disarmament (which is still in progress) we have today. The days of each side have 20-30 thousand warheads all on a hair trigger is over.

So Reagan will be known for bringing the 'Cold War' to an end. If that outweighs his perceived faults among various people I cannot say.




MrRodgers -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/6/2011 9:54:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Lets see, SDI aka "Star Wars" never got very far
It was never intended to

quote:

the cost was preventative
That was the point

quote:

we still dont have the technology promised in the plan
There never was any real intention to deliver

quote:

and what was actually paid out was never recouped.
It was, in spades.

Now look over my answers and think about them a while, then come back and answer this question: "What was the actual purpose of SDI/Star Wars?"


First 'we' had to make sure that after WWII there would be a USSR, an opponent that could be used to scare us (the Russians were never coming) and whom the public could be assured...was on the verge of doing just that both in Europe and here via the new coming missile technology. Truman now had a basis for remaining armed.

Once there, we had a platform for a cold war and of course...all wars are to be a profit. That profit center didn't last too long and we were clearly...not threatened. That had to change. No problem.

During detente, Nixon/Kissinger gave or made sure chip technology got to the USSR so they could also...'MIRV' their missiles. (multiple, independently targeted re-entry vehicles). That gave them multiple warheads on each missile. Now our 'enemy' has caught up. Now we have to spend billions more on more submarines, more big bombers and then because the USSR couldn't afford ground based installations, they put missiles on trucks. Now we know just how expert the commies were (not) they created a 'window of vulnerability' upon our silos. They added strategically the only real way they could...more submarines. We were told about 250 Russian subs were out there. Yep, you got it, now the 'Russians were really coming.' No they weren't.

Now we simply need a umbrella of protection from all those mobile land-based missiles and MIRV'ed missile subs. In comes SDI. That'll really scare the Russians as if they still thought they could win a war with us.

Now we have bought defense we go to offense so...enter a brand new round trip nuclear bombers...the B-1 & 2, now $billion each and billions a year to maintain and now...for what ? The Russians were never coming here and knew it (we knew it) once Jimmy Carter successfully had intermediate range Pershing II nuke missiles installed there, the Russians weren't going to Europe either.

Kinkroids, war hot or cold...is for a profit, ALL wars are a profit center. We create wars for a profit and to project or take power...period. Did somebody say 'War on Terror ?' Once the cold war shut down well, we need a new enemy.




MrRodgers -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/6/2011 10:27:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Let's not forget making ketchup a vegetable.

[image]http://ronwade.freeservers.com/antireagan2009line2-1x3.jpg[/image]



...or that trees cause pollution.




MrRodgers -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/6/2011 10:38:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I'd comment on Reagan, but you liberals on here seem to have a pretty good circle jerk going on right now. Why interupt it..

Can't think of anything ? Nobody is all great and good as well all incompetent or bad. Just like his predecessor Carter who many feel as I do, had every bit as much to do with ending the cold war as any other single president.




errantgeek -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/6/2011 11:13:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Now look over my answers and think about them a while, then come back and answer this question: "What was the actual purpose of SDI/Star Wars?"


Yeah, what was the actual purpose of SDI?

I mean, it couldn't have been to tank the Soviet economy, that was already accomplished between mid- to late-70s economic stagnation coupled with the Soviet Union's gross over-expenditure in Afghanistan. It would have happened in the '70s were it not for the discovery of Siberian oil and natural gas, and the Trans-Siberian pipeline, that kept the Soviet economy (barely) afloat for approximately ten years. Moreover, once Khrushchev came to power and alienated Mao, the Soviets had to keep economic pace with both the U.S. and China, making their economic collapse which Kennan predicted in '47 beyond a foregone conclusion, especially after Sino-American relations were re-established with Nixon and Xiaopeng came to power and began to modernize the Chinese economy.

Outside that, it added nothing new to the economic game that Truman, Kennan, and later Eisenhower hadn't already figured out while Reagan was still making shitty B-movies. To wit, Eisenhower explicitly called out Kennan and revised the containment doctrine after Korea because to match the Soviet move-for-move conventionally would bankrupt us faster given the Soviet Union's massive lead on the conventional warfare front.

It wasn't a strategic power play, either. The U.S. already had sufficient second-strike capability to fully carry out the MAD doctrine -- which the U.S. had employed since its inception with McNamara after the glaring flaws of brinkmanship became evident following the Cuban Missile Crisis. Moreover, after the chilling in Sino-Russian relations, the strategic situation had strongly shifted against the Soviet Union given they had an enemy to their southeast and to their west (seriously, the USSR and PRC were at war with each other in '69, funded proxy wars against each other in Africa and the Middle East and damn near nuked each other more than once). Thirdly, the U.S. by the '70s had a solid conventional doctrine in stacking force multipliers through training, equipment and technology the USSR would have had an impractically-difficult time breaking with sheer numbers.

Really, had anyone but Gorbachev been in power during the '80s -- and probably even Gorbachev (the man wasn't stupid, just a skeptic) had SDI had a snowball's chance of success, the announcement of SDI could have fundamentally destabilized the balance of power by shifting the perception of American nuclear doctrine from mutually-assured destruction to first-strike. Add to this the fact the U.S. was already bound by the OST, NPT, ABMT, and PTBT with the INFT, CFET, and START I coming down the pike, and there was no reason -- strategic, economic, or otherwise -- to continue pursuing an orbital missile defense system, especially given its cost and low probability of success (to wit, SDI stalled nuclear non-proliferation talks for years and continues to be a thorn in the side of non-proliferation talks between the U.S. and the Russian Federation today). Plus, Soviet nuclear doctrine already was first strike, and given a situation in which this doctrine (along with second-strike) could soon prove to no longer be effective, along with a sudden shift in U.S. nuclear doctrine from MAD to first strike, is all but forcing the Soviets to strike before the opportunity is lost. Reagan's shift from MAD back to brinkmanship was already a dangerous-enough ploy at a period when economic and political instability within the USSR was at an all-time high well before SDI entered the scene.




imperatrixx -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/7/2011 1:22:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

SDI was intended to bankrupt the USSR. that's it. The whole star wars approach was used so that the US could spend more money than the Soviets could afford to on an ostensibly military project. The money was used to fund a lot of research into some esoteric areas of research with potentially enormous non-military applications. Areas that wouldn't otherwise have gotten much funding. Lasars, ballistic properties of moving objects in low/zero gravity environments, methods of disabling satellites, safe methods of removing a satellite from orbit once it's usefulness was done, focused microwave & lasar based telecommunications systems, generating plasma, and so on. A lot of important cutting edge research in some peripheral fields.

The space-based missile defense was never an actual serious aim. Spending money the USSR could not, was. The Soviets had to start their own SDI-like program in order to not be caught defenseless. The US had the cash, the Sovs didn't.

This was the culmination of a strategy for defeating the USSR without risking nuclear war developed in the 50s, primarily by Adm. Rickover.

Not a conspiracy, simply a policy to pursue a very serious and earnest war through economic rather than military means. The west had the bucks and the east didn't, so we spent them into the ground.



That's actually quite genius.

It would actually be kind of ironic that with all the detrimental things he did to the US, if it turns out that without this there would have been nuclear annihilation. One of those "you'll never know" things that's fun to think about.




imperatrixx -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/7/2011 1:23:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I'd comment on Reagan, but you liberals on here seem to have a pretty good circle jerk going on right now. Why interupt it..


Seriously, I posed this question because I genuinely want to know why conservatives like him so much.

I can't speak for anyone else but as the OP I would appreciate a response from someone who does think he was a great President. I'd like to know what you guys see in him.




Moonhead -> RE: Ronald Reagan (7/7/2011 4:42:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

Arpig has is right, that the US actually could build such a system with some money and work, so the Russians were faced with a real threat.


The US couldn't (and didn't) build such a system regardless of how much money and effort was pissed away on it: even a lot of the "strapped duck" tests failed miserably, for heaven's sake.
If the SDI wasn't (as Arpig suggests) merely a scarecrow, then it was one of the most fuckwitted misappropriations of government funds in your country's history. I suspect this is why most of those making excuses for Reagan are treating it as a bluff.




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