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RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 7:04:50 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster
but last week it was revealed a small number had chronic but non-life-threatening conditions, including rheumatoid arthritis. Yet no one has ever been prosecuted.

I remember hearing about a survey on suicide, it found that if patients were allowed to self-medicate then less people would commit suicide. It is the pain, for some people, that they can not tolerate and its the doctors that want to cover their ass and not wanting to be sued for over prescribing, etc that keeps patients needing more pain meds suffering. So many people are restricted from the meds they feel they need and forced to consider suicide...

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RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 7:08:52 AM

GreedyTop

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I agree.. I would grant that same choice.. I just dont want to be the one co-signing the papers, as in Peters case.. I am ..not HAPPY.. but satisfied that it is no longer my call to make.. yes, that is wussin' out. but I'd rather wuss out on it than to make Mom subject to legal battles because of my selfishness...

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RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 7:14:49 AM

hardcybermaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster
but last week it was revealed a small number had chronic but non-life-threatening conditions, including rheumatoid arthritis. Yet no one has ever been prosecuted.

I remember hearing about a survey on suicide, it found that if patients were allowed to self-medicate then less people would commit suicide. It is the pain, for some people, that they can not tolerate and its the doctors that want to cover their ass and not wanting to be sued for over prescribing, etc that keeps patients needing more pain meds suffering. So many people are restricted from the meds they feel they need and forced to consider suicide...

the law sucks sometimes doesn't it?
Again it is about personal choice. The obvious caveat about being of sound mind aside people should be able to make their own choices about how many meds they take. Clearly they will need sound help and advice on this but it should be their choice

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Post #: 23

RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 7:26:18 AM

AlwaysLisa

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quote:

If you had to be the person watching someone making this decision, how would you feel?

could you respect the decision?

I was home health care to my mom, diagnosed with Pancreatic Cancer. There were times, she begged to die. If I had been able to secure the drugs, I would have granted her wish. We find it acceptable to relieve the suffering of a beloved pet, but our family members must endure horrific pain and suffering. Until she was in a hospice program, the doctors acted as if I was selling the medication on the street, they watched the amount carefully and questioned any discrepancies in the pill count. Once, the pharmacy shorted us, and I had to get very ugly with the doctors nurse in order to get more.

So yes, I respect someones decision to end the pain and suffering.

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RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 7:28:16 AM

GreedyTop

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I am thankful that Mom is in relatively good health...

for now.

I just dread the possibility that a time will come when she ISNT...

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RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 7:32:14 AM

LadyPact

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I also couldn't watch the piece, so this is just taken from the topic.

It's a tough question to even ask oneself. I actually do believe in the premise of death with dignity. I would hope that, if I were of sound mind, My wishes would be respected. I'd want My ducks in a row and attempt to base My decision on, not depression, fear, or anxiety, but rather on what is best for the situation for everyone involved. The problem with this area is that it is so hard to determine that's what is really happening. Knowing Me, I'd probably have a long term history of establishing the decision and making sure people knew what I wanted.

Somebody I love? I'd respect it, but that isn't saying that I wouldn't have those feelings of selfishness that says I wish I could keep that person here with Me longer. Who wouldn't feel just a twinge of that when talking about their closest family member? That is probably when I'd start wondering if someone was coerced or some such thing. There's a difference between resolve of following through what you know you have to do and being indifferent about it.

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RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 7:35:29 AM

needlesandpins

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fr

i'm all up for it. jeez we put people through hell that no law will let an animal go though. so, so long as the person is of sound mind i see no reason why not. there are always going to be those who fight it, like those who keep animals lingering on meds but with no real quality of life because they are too selfish to let them go (and yeah i know it gets covered by the 'but i'm doing it because i love them. it's bs, you're just too damn selfish to do the right thing). however, the thing is is that you can't expect someone to stay with you and suffer just because you don't want to let them go.

if it were legal then i'd gladly sign something that says i want to be put out of my misery if i'm trapped in a body i can't do anything with or in so much pain that i have no quality of life and so on. i'd also gladly be the one who pulls the plug, pushes the plunger, or whatever on someone i love too if that is what they wanted.

i'm sure there is alot that seems open to abuse, but we carry donar cards don't we? so why not something that lists at what point we want to end things.

needles

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Post #: 27

RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 7:37:31 AM

GreedyTop

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I also couldn't watch the piece, so this is just taken from the topic.

It's a tough question to even ask oneself. I actually do believe in the premise of death with dignity. I would hope that, if I were of sound mind, My wishes would be respected. I'd want My ducks in a row and attempt to base My decision on, not depression, fear, or anxiety, but rather on what is best for the situation for everyone involved. The problem with this area is that it is so hard to determine that's what is really happening. Knowing Me, I'd probably have a long term history of establishing the decision and making sure people knew what I wanted.

Somebody I love? I'd respect it, but that isn't saying that I wouldn't have those feelings of selfishness that says I wish I could keep that person here with Me longer. Who wouldn't feel just a twinge of that when talking about their closest family member? That is probably when I'd start wondering if someone was coerced or some such thing. There's a difference between resolve of following through what you know you have to do and being indifferent about it.

*love*

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RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 7:37:56 AM

AlwaysLisa

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GT,

The hardest part, was making the judgment call. Mom's wishes were not to be force fed, or kept alive by machine. Her final days, she was comatose, and the nursing staff asked me every morning if she was to be fed via IV. I dealt with the guilt for years, even though it was her wish, I was the one giving the order to not feed her. Yes, it was in her living will, but the nurses still asked.

We need to do something, in regard to these situations, that allow the patient to have a pain free and dignified departure from this planet, only then will we be civilized.

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RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 7:40:38 AM

hardcybermaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

fr

i'm all up for it. jeez we put people through hell that no law will let an animal go though. so, so long as the person is of sound mind i see no reason why not. there are always going to be those who fight it, like those who keep animals lingering on meds but with no real quality of life because they are too selfish to let them go (and yeah i know it gets covered by the 'but i'm doing it because i love them. it's bs, you're just too damn selfish to do the right thing). however, the thing is is that you can't expect someone to stay with you and suffer just because you don't want to let them go.

if it were legal then i'd gladly sign something that says i want to be put out of my misery if i'm trapped in a body i can't do anything with or in so much pain that i have no quality of life and so on. i'd also gladly be the one who pulls the plug, pushes the plunger, or whatever on someone i love too if that is what they wanted.

i'm sure there is alot that seems open to abuse, but we carry donar cards don't we? so why not something that lists at what point we want to end things.

needles

I think living wills can cover that sort of thing,over here anyway, the important thing is to be able to make your wishes clear before it all goes tits up, then at least everyone who cares knows the score and the lawyers don't get invovled which is generally a good thing in my book

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Post #: 30

RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 7:50:41 AM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

I think living wills can cover that sort of thing,over here anyway, the important thing is to be able to make your wishes clear before it all goes tits up, then at least everyone who cares knows the score and the lawyers don't get invovled which is generally a good thing in my book

I know of one motorcycle racer who has a "DNR if vegetable or crippled" clause tattooed on his chest.

Difficult to ignore :)

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Post #: 31

RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 8:00:22 AM

hardcybermaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

I think living wills can cover that sort of thing,over here anyway, the important thing is to be able to make your wishes clear before it all goes tits up, then at least everyone who cares knows the score and the lawyers don't get invovled which is generally a good thing in my book

I know of one motorcycle racer who has a "DNR if vegetable or crippled" clause tattooed on his chest.

Difficult to ignore :)

lets hope it didn't get scraped off as he flew across the tarmac

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Post #: 32

RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 8:06:22 AM

DesFIP

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The problems include that the person pushing it for an elderly parent may be wanting the quick end for their own reasons. They can't deal with the ongoing caregiving or they want an inheritance. Beyond that, people who choose this from cancer (for example) don't really want it, what they want is an end to the pain. If you can eliminate the pain, they stop saying this.

I remember when my father in law was dying, he claimed he wanted this. His wife left the bottle of heavy duty pain killers at his bedside with a large glass of water. He easily could have swallowed them while she spent a couple of hours at the grocery store. He didn't. It was a response of frustration, not desire.

People who are paralyzed often ask for this in the beginning, but as a response to depression. If treated for depression, they no longer choose it.

With Alzheimers, at what point would you choose it? When first diagnosed and you're still competent? You won't choose it towards the end when you're living in the past. Do you say it should be done the first time you forget what day it is? How could you choose this? And is it fair to choose it when you're competent when you're less competent self four years later doesn't want it? It's a legal and moral nightmare.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 7/7/2011 8:07:57 AM >

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RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 8:14:26 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

lets hope it didn't get scraped off as he flew across the tarmac

omg, what a horrible thought... but yet,.. it is funny... black humor...

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RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 8:26:17 AM

WinsomeDefiance

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When my father died of cancer, he had made it clear that he did not want to be resuscitated, and had a DNR on file. However, when he died, my brother who was only 13 at the time, started crying and demanding we do something. It was heartbreaking to watch my brother's sorrow. We did try to resuscitate, despite my father's wishes. Our attempts were unsuccessful, and part of me is thankful about that, because we did want to honor my father's wishes. There's just no way to know how you will react when not only someone you love is at that point of wanting to die, or dying; and the loved ones around you are demanding that something be done. I'm not sure I could have looked my brother in the eyes, if we hadn't at least tried.

Still, I know that there have been times in my life when the only thing keeping me from suicidal thoughts was focusing on the belief that the pain would lesson, or some relief was just around the corner. I've made my own wishes known to my children, and I hope they honor them - but I hope more, that they do what brings them peace. I would not want my own desire to be rid of pain to bring them any pain of their own. I"ve told them my wishes, and that I hope they honor them, but more than this, I hope they are men enough to make a choice that sits well with their own conscience.

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Post #: 35

RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 9:23:36 AM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

lets hope it didn't get scraped off as he flew across the tarmac

heh. Good point. Unlikely though, since abrasion damage there is rare, and most pros and semi-pros use a chest protector these days.

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RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 9:26:25 AM

defiantbadgirl

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Hospitals have patients sign papers to prevent lawsuits if they die from general anesthesia. Why can't pain doctors do the same? In cases of incurable brain destroying illnesses (alzheimers, brain cancer, etc) or certain injuries, I think doctors should be able to euthanize patients if they want to die or if they're unable to communicate with or without consent. I say without consent because of certain religions and to prevent grieving families from adding guilt to their grief. A doctor having that kind of power sounds scary, but the alternative is far worse. Imagine what it would be like to be in excruciating pain and unable to write or speak.

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RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 12:44:10 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

If the system is properly regulated, such as in the Swiss model, then that's not a problem. IIRC, under the Swiss model, a total of 3 clinicians, each SMEs, must all agree to the person's wishes, and even then you have to be assessed as sound of mind and uninfluenced by others. If there's even a hint someone is applying pressure then the request is denied, and I believe any subsequent application is vetted even more thoroughly.

In the US, with some of the culture of legal power and money-first, people-last attitudes then yes, I agree, it might be an issue, although not impossible to administer, one would hope.

The Swiss seem to be more advanced in that regards than the US. I was going to say that there needs to be strict regulation in place here in the US so that greedy beneficiaries or angry relatives could not play a part.

Personally, while I agree with the concept, I would want very strict regulations even to the point of a list of illnesses that one must suffer in order to "qualify." I know that isn't a great word, but can't think of something else. I lost my parents to "natural" causes, and I don't know how I would have handled any of them wanting such a thing.

In the US it is a good concept that needs certain restrictions in place (such as the Swiss model) to make sure it is not used improperly. That is my biggest concern with it...being used improperly.

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Post #: 38

RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 1:39:48 PM

MasterG2kTR

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I just spotted this thread. In recent months I've done two reports in school on this very subject. First let me say that I am in favor of this and Jack Kevorkian did the world a favor by putting it in the spotlight when he did.

Anyway, during my research for information on this subject I came across this link http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12438997 which highlights another Brit who desperately wants release but can find no options because of the laws in the UK. He clearly has good reason for the Right to Die with Dignity (what little he has left) and there is little question that he is of sound mind.

ETA: For what it's worth at the moment, Oregon and Washington States currently have Physician Assisted Suicide laws. Which not so surprisingly is where Jack Kevorkian did most of his work.

< Message edited by MasterG2kTR -- 7/7/2011 1:42:25 PM >

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Post #: 39

RE: Assisted death - 7/7/2011 1:59:32 PM

GreedyTop

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thanks, MG...

it is SUCH a hard subject for many, myself included...

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