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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/13/2011 6:11:47 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I'm having a hard time following how a Chasidic Jew could do this.

The victim was Jewish, not the perpetrator. Also, a Jew could do it as well as a Christian or Muslim. They just wouldn't really be a PRACTICING fill-in-the-blank so much...........luci



Actually, they both were Chasidic Jews. I live in the Tri-State (NY, NJ, CT) area, so it is considered "local" news here. While this article states there is confusion as to whether the man is Chasidic (using Steven's spelling assuming he knows better than I), there is no question he is either Chasidic or Orthodox. Please re-read the article.

According to local reports, the alleged perpetrator has been "not quite right" (neighbor interviewed statement) since losing his mother. Clearly, he has suffered some psychotic break.

I wondered the same as you did, Steven, when I heard the report. My understanding of Chasidic (or even Orthodox) Judiasim is that they are a very passive, non-aggressive people.

My prayers go out to the family of the boy, but also to this man, who I believe has suffered a horrible mental breakdown and needs help.

ETA: Steven's or my views are not idealized. He, being Jewish, probably knows a bit more than most of us "wasps" about various areas of Judiasim. Also, statistically, there ARE certain religious cultures that are less likely to commit violent crimes.

I would be curious VC, where exactly you got your information about Chasidic Jews in the US.

< Message edited by LafayetteLady -- 7/13/2011 6:16:10 PM >

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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/13/2011 6:16:16 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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Status: offline 		(Just an fyi: it's Yiddish. All English spelling of Yiddish words is basically a fiction. English Yiddish tends to spell it with an H and a double s; American Yiddish may vary, but even within cultures those tendencies tend to be inconsistent and you'll often see the same words spelt multiple ways in a single document.)

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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/13/2011 6:16:40 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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Status: offline 		I wish I could get my mind to work in the "I wish help for the poor man, because he needs help" mode. There is no doubt he had a breakdown, but I can only look at it in the way that we shot Old Yeller cause it had to be done, this man deserves the same.

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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/13/2011 6:18:49 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

I would be curious VC, where exactly you got your information about Chasidic Jews in the US.

In the US? None. In the UK? Personal contact, and a reasonable amount of it. I've smoked dope with Hassidic kids. I've seen them commit theft, and I've listened to them talk about rape in their community. They're people, just like any other people. The idea that this particular religion somehow would stop someone from committing a murder is laughable.

<edit for grammar>

< Message edited by VaguelyCurious -- 7/13/2011 6:20:07 PM >

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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/13/2011 6:23:56 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

I wish I could get my mind to work in the "I wish help for the poor man, because he needs help" mode. There is no doubt he had a breakdown, but I can only look at it in the way that we shot Old Yeller cause it had to be done, this man deserves the same.


Old Yeller suffered from rabies, something that could not be cured (in the time of the movie), and was an actual animal.

I believe in the death penalty, and I do believe the man should stand trial for his crimes, but I also believe the sentencing should take in the circumstances. Is he like Charles Manson, damaged beyond help, or is he someone who can be helped, regardless of whether or not that help comes during time in prison.

I made my career in the law, and there is rarely anything as clear cut as the media will portray it to be, and find that lay people tend to react according to the visceral emotion such acts bring about and never care to know beyond the barest of facts, i.e. "man dismembers child." Kind of like those who obviously either skimmed the article or read only the parts that interest them and miss important points until they are pointed out by others.

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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/13/2011 6:29:40 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

I would be curious VC, where exactly you got your information about Chasidic Jews in the US.

In the US? None. In the UK? Personal contact, and a reasonable amount of it. I've smoked dope with Hassidic kids. I've seen them commit theft, and I've listened to them talk about rape in their community. They're people, just like any other people. The idea that this particular religion somehow would stop someone from committing a murder is laughable.

<edit for grammar>


No one has said that it would "stop" such incidences. Simply that statistically, they are one of the groups that are less prone to violent acts. Of course, that is the statistics here in the US. Perhaps in the UK, it is just something one calls themselves with no actual attachment to the religious aspects itself. It would be like hearing that a Quaker or Menonite committed such a crime. Practically unheard of.

As for the Steven's comment about the time put in being akin to a tenured Women's Study Professor...you are dead wrong. These children are taught from BIRTH, a tenured Women's Study Professor less than 10 years. Choice has little to do with it. Something that is ingrained in a person from the time they are born doesn't just go away.

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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/13/2011 6:39:34 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

No one has said that it would "stop" such incidences. Simply that statistically, they are one of the groups that are less prone to violent acts.

Not so. Stephen said that he didn't understand how a Hassidic Jew could do this. That's not talking statistics, that's talking about this particular man because of his particular relgion.

quote:

Of course, that is the statistics here in the US. Perhaps in the UK, it is just something one calls themselves with no actual attachment to the religious aspects itself.

Absolutely not - it's certainly a religion that its adherents take seriously. But I will say that reported crime statistics are not always accurate, particularly in such a closed community. You can't hide a murder, but it's easy to persuade people not to report rape, for instance.

quote:


As for the Steven's comment about the time put in being akin to a tenured Women's Study Professor...you are dead wrong. These children are taught from BIRTH, a tenured Women's Study Professor less than 10 years. Choice has little to do with it. Something that is ingrained in a person from the time they are born doesn't just go away.

Have you actually spent any time with these people being taught from birth? Some of them swallow it wholesale, in which case your timescale is accurate and fair. But some of them really, really don't (hence the shoplifting dope-smokers I'm talking about.) Those boys are Hassidic because their parents are, and they go through the motions when people are looking and get high with outsiders when they can. The idea that they are analogous to a women's studies professor is ridiculous.

ETA: and this is the point where I go to bed. So if you reply and I don't then I'm not ignoring you, I'm just sleeping because it's 2.40am now.

< Message edited by VaguelyCurious -- 7/13/2011 6:41:06 PM >

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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/13/2011 6:47:10 PM   
LafayetteLady


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Status: offline 		You're right, I mentioned the statistics responding to Steven's comment.

Among the total population of Chasidic Jews, you have partied with a select few. Hardly enough to make the proclamations you are. Of course, in any group, there are those who would choose to be something else.

As you said, they are very closed communities. I don't believe that it is a means to them hiding a plethora of crimes that aren't reported.

And yes, I have spent time with Chasidic Jews in my past, as well as Menonites. No Quakers, though.

I am very well aware of how statistics can be inaccurate. However, crimes statistics tend to only be "skewed" when reported by the media. When simply reading crime statistics that are posted as mere numbers without commentary, the lack of "accuracy" is a non-issue.

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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/13/2011 6:52:30 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Among the total population of Chasidic Jews, you have partied with a select few. Hardly enough to make the proclamations you are. Of course, in any group, there are those who would choose to be something else.


Proclamations? I said this:

quote:

Your view of the Hassidic community is idealised and naive. Some of them do drugs, some of them steal, some of them rape, and (evidently) some of them commit murder. The Hassidim are an ethnic grouping rather than a religious choice, and you're deluding yourself if you think that being born Hassidic is akin to choosing (choice being the key) to spend the amount of time necessary to get tenure studying Women's Studies.


I'll stand by that. Some of them do drugs and some of them steal. I've had first hand evidence of this. Some of them commit rape. I've second hand evidence of this from listening to their conversations. And evidently some of them commit murder, because, look! We're talking about a murder. Those aren't proclamations, those are demonstrable facts.

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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/13/2011 7:04:20 PM   
Tantriqu


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Status: offline 		The only differences in committing crimes between people who regularly attend religious services and those who don't: those who attend services are more likely to steal and sexually interfere with children, so actually he fits the trend. It's their baseless sense of entitlement, I think.
And the top consumers of on-line porn are religious states, like Utah and the Middle East. The only difference is that consumption drops slightly on each religion's holy day of the week!

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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/13/2011 7:05:22 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
The Chasidim live a life in which they study the word of the Torah damn seriously. Devout Jews do the equivalent of a thesis at the age of fourteen, including the ethical issues. His type of Judaism is NOT the kind of religion that only applies when attending services.

I guess its a case of nature vs nurture. Seems to me that no matter how intensive the latter is (as it was here), there is always a chance natural propensities will show through. In this case the murderer probably had some predisposition toward psychosis which a very stressful event made a reality.

I think he may have been mentally insane so I wouldn't support the death penalty. It makes less sense to punish a person who has no capacity to tell right from wrong. Even a sociopath has some grasp of the concept although they don't "feel" it.

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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/13/2011 7:20:06 PM   
erieangel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I'm having a hard time following how a Chasidic Jew could do this.

The victim was Jewish, not the perpetrator. Also, a Jew could do it as well as a Christian or Muslim. They just wouldn't really be a PRACTICING fill-in-the-blank so much...........luci



Actually, they both were Chasidic Jews. I live in the Tri-State (NY, NJ, CT) area, so it is considered "local" news here. While this article states there is confusion as to whether the man is Chasidic (using Steven's spelling assuming he knows better than I), there is no question he is either Chasidic or Orthodox. Please re-read the article.

According to local reports, the alleged perpetrator has been "not quite right" (neighbor interviewed statement) since losing his mother. Clearly, he has suffered some psychotic break.

I wondered the same as you did, Steven, when I heard the report. My understanding of Chasidic (or even Orthodox) Judiasim is that they are a very passive, non-aggressive people.

My prayers go out to the family of the boy, but also to this man, who I believe has suffered a horrible mental breakdown and needs help.

ETA: Steven's or my views are not idealized. He, being Jewish, probably knows a bit more than most of us "wasps" about various areas of Judiasim. Also, statistically, there ARE certain religious cultures that are less likely to commit violent crimes.

I would be curious VC, where exactly you got your information about Chasidic Jews in the US.



I was thinking the same thing as soon as I read Steven's first post. But then, my mind often travels to mental illness as the explanation for inexplicable events like the murder of an 8 year old boy. That said, mental illness in no way justifies the murder, it simply explains how it can happen

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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/13/2011 7:43:43 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
According to local reports, the alleged perpetrator has been "not quite right" (neighbor interviewed statement) since losing his mother. Clearly, he has suffered some psychotic break.
...
My prayers go out to the family of the boy, but also to this man, who I believe has suffered a horrible mental breakdown and needs help.

I haven't read the article, but the above does indicate that his strong conditioning was broken by the trauma of losing his mother. Likely he confessed because of his conditioning.

Of course he does is responsible for his actions and in some way amends must be made, but in this case I deem compassion for the perpetrator more appropriate than retribution. In any case one has to ensure that he does not repeat the heinous act.

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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/13/2011 7:50:42 PM   
coookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

I'm sorry but that POS just needs a bullet in the head.
And I wonder exactly what that would accomplish.


I agree.. there has already been one tragedy. He needs psychological help and should have gotten it long before now

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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/13/2011 8:05:20 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
I'm having a hard time following how a Chasidic Jew could do this.

Do you mind saying why?

The Chasidim live a life in which they study the word of the Torah damn seriously. Devout Jews do the equivalent of a thesis at the age of fourteen, including the ethical issues. His type of Judaism is NOT the kind of religion that only applies when attending services.

To me, this is kinda analogous to a tenured Women's Studies professor suddenly joining a skinhead neo-Nazi group with no warning.

If a population has to be indoctrinated - conditioned - from birth into ethical behavior, if they have to do a thesis on ethics when fourteen (when according to Western European norms still a child), then all indications are that this population or at least a significant number of the people in this population, are born without a conscience - and hence they are born evil. As Saul, who did have a conscience, said (and perchance I paraphrase): It is better to be circumcised of heart than to be circumcised of penis.

The practice of circumcision of penis ought to have stopped when the pagan circumcision god was dethroned many centuries before Jesus and Saul were born.

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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/13/2011 8:12:59 PM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The Chasidim live a life in which they study the word of the Torah damn seriously. Devout Jews do the equivalent of a thesis at the age of fourteen, including the ethical issues. His type of Judaism is NOT the kind of religion that only applies when attending services.

To me, this is kinda analogous to a tenured Women's Studies professor suddenly joining a skinhead neo-Nazi group with no warning.


Unfortunately it doesn't protect against schizophrenia with voices that tell you to kill. And that's what I first thought of.

However, what kind of camp doesn't have kids of this age taken to and from on a bus? There's no excuse for a kid of that age being left to find his own way home.


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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/13/2011 8:28:41 PM   
sexyred1


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Status: offline 		One, I believe in the death penalty for killing a child. I don't care if he is insane, he killed an innocent child.

I am Jewish and familiar with the Hassidic sect to a degree. One thing I agree with is that no matter what your ethnicity, religion, status, sex, intelligence level, income level, whatever, there are evil people in every group.

One thing about the Hassidic group, they are very hidden and protect their citizens. It is like a secret society. They are extremely misogynistic and there is a huge amount of spousal abuse, use of prostitutes, etc. with them as much as anyone else.

There was a very eye opening article in New York magazine a few years ago written by a woman who was a member of the sect and her husband beat her and abused her. She wanted a divorce. In that sector, a divorce is not easy to get. To make a long story short, the sect protected the husband and would not allow the wife to have a "get" which is the only divorce recognizedd (a Hassidic Rabbi has to grant it even if you get a lawyer and get a legal divorce).

They basically took her children away from her and threw her out of the community. It was horrific. She was the victim.

So I have no sympathy for the fuck who killed this child.

I don't care what religion they are. And this is not about being Jewish, this is a specific sect within the Jewish religion. It is not the same as being Orthodox. My grandparents were Orthodox and nothing like the Hassidic Jews.

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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/13/2011 9:10:06 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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Status: offline 		Sadly, this is probably not even the worst thing that happened today

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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/13/2011 10:37:41 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Unfortunately it doesn't protect against schizophrenia with voices that tell you to kill. And that's what I first thought of.


As I said, since I live in what is considered the local area, we got more information. He apparently has had problems since his mother died. That was the original report that was on our local news, so I would not think that schizophrenia was an issue, and not all schizophrenics have voices in their head, let alone voices telling them to kill.

quote:


However, what kind of camp doesn't have kids of this age taken to and from on a bus? There's no excuse for a kid of that age being left to find his own way home.



The kind that takes place in New York City. Many of those kids don't even have buses that take them to school. They take the bus or the subway.

Regardless, he wasn't "left to find his own way home." His mother had walked him the majority of the way, and was meeting him at that point when camp was over. Do I think that eight is too young for a child to walk even a block by himself in NYC? Yep. But apparently, she was trying to teach him a little independence, within their pretty closed off community, which she felt was safe. It wasn't, but that is neither here nor there. I'm sure that mother is feeling more guilt than you could ever heap on her for having tried something new. And yes, this was the very first time he had ever walked even 200 feet by himself.

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RE: What is wrong with people? - 7/14/2011 5:11:55 AM   
JstAnotherSub


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Status: offline 		The news here reported that the child had been begging his mom to let him walk alone, like the other kids did. I feel so bad for that mom. How many of us have allowed our children to do something that was hard for us, but we did it in the attempt to let them become more independent?

I know I have. I hope she will someday be able to realize it is not her fault. I would be blaming my self.

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