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RE: Wisconsin Fake Dems lose big time - 7/14/2011 5:28:57 PM   
erieangel


Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline 		My opinion of this claim that the Democrats have done it too, is that the Republicans are just being sore because 1. they got caught and 2. the fakes lost big time.

As to that "well, they do it" meme, it sounded like something I said when I was 10 years old and wanted to do everything all the kids in the neighborhood were getting away with doing and which my mother wouldn't allow from me. Or the types of behavior I wouldn't allow from my kids when they were 10. We are not electing children to office--we area supposed to be electing the best and the brightest adults who have an interest in holding office. Geez

(in reply to DarkSteven)
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RE: Wisconsin Fake Dems lose big time - 7/14/2011 5:33:26 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Well I did a quickie search... 20 pages of information but all of it about this latest clusterfuck and Limpdicks operation Chaos, so Im wondering if we will see a source, at least a verifiable one. Im sure as hell not gonna look any more, my google powers are brill but im bored already


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(in reply to erieangel)
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RE: Wisconsin Fake Dems lose big time - 7/14/2011 5:45:44 PM   
kat321


Posts: 66
Joined: 2/4/2011
Status: offline 		It did happen once before in 2010. A long time democrat started to legislate against what the people voted him into office to do. He ran in the next election as an independent against a democrat.  The democratic party ran a fake republican in the general election to try to siphon off votes.  It didn't work.  Funny thing though, the 'independent' didn't stay independent.  He immediately started caucusing with the republicans.

While I didn't agree with the choice of the democratic party then, the inclusion of this candidate in 2010 did not force a primary in a special election where there otherwise wouldn't have been a primary.  In the primaries that were held on Tuesday the GOP forced an expenditure upon the tax-payers that otherwise would not have been necessary- sort of ironic considering their actions in the state legislature in the past few months.  As I said previously, there will be two primaries among republicans next week where the winner will try to unseat democratic senators up for recall.  These primaries are being done as a choice of the GOP as both candidates are true GOP; it will either be two battles of  "I am the true conservative" or "I am more likely to beat the sitting senator."  We will see.

One of the reasons this can be done is because elections are open here.  One does not have to be a republican or democrat to vote in a particular primary.   On Tuesday many republicans came to vote in the democratic primaries (obviously voting for the fake candidates).  In the end it wasn't about trying to get these fake candidates into office... and I disagree with a poster above who said it was about slowing down the process.  While the GOP has maintained that running the fake candidates was done to give the incumbents more time to campaign, it was really about trying to get democratic candidates to spend their war-chests campaigning against the attack adds the GOP/PACs have been airing the past few weeks. There was no campaigning in my district for either the fake candidate or the incumbent- only A LOT of negative advertisements about the actual democratic challenger.  As of Wednesday the attack adds on both sides are flying.... I will in all likelihood turn off the television for the next few weeks. 



< Message edited by kat321 -- 7/14/2011 5:47:23 PM >

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RE: Wisconsin Fake Dems lose big time - 7/15/2011 6:47:39 AM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline 		So what is his name and what district did he run in?

Just saying a a Long Tine Dem did it offers nothing. 

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RE: Wisconsin Fake Dems lose big time - 7/15/2011 9:08:38 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Wisconsin has open primaries and it is legal for anyone to run. 6 people ran in a democrat primary. What's the big deal ?

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RE: Wisconsin Fake Dems lose big time - 7/15/2011 11:01:58 AM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline 		the open primary means everyone can VOTE both Dems and Repubs. 

The state Republican Party orchestrated the placement of the fake Democrats on the ballot, thereby delaying the general election until Aug. 9 and giving the incumbents an additional month to campaign.

My questions remains, since the GOP placed these fake dems to force a primary, so there people could have more time to campaign are they willing to pay back the taxpayers for an election that was not necessary.  I mean I thought the GOP was against wasting the taxpayers money?????  Unless of course they are the ones wasting it, then it appears to be OK

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RE: Wisconsin Fake Dems lose big time - 7/15/2011 11:34:16 AM   
kat321


Posts: 66
Joined: 2/4/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

So what is his name and what district did he run in?



Andrew Winiewski (democrat running as republican) vs. Bob Zeigelbauer (former democrat turned into right-wing republican running as an independent) vs. Kerry Trask (real democrat) -  WI 25th assembly district 2010.


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RE: Wisconsin Fake Dems lose big time - 7/15/2011 11:36:14 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Nope a republican running as a republican.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20100725/GPG0101/7250664/Wisconsin-Assembly-candidate-Andrew-Wisniewski-put-back-ballot

I should add, Brietbarts asswipe notwithstanding.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 7/15/2011 11:39:22 AM >

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RE: Wisconsin Fake Dems lose big time - 7/15/2011 11:50:00 AM   
kat321


Posts: 66
Joined: 2/4/2011
Status: offline 		Read the article in its entirety..... particularly the following:  "The Republican Party actually tried to prevent Andrew Wisniewski from being on the ballot in the 25th Assembly District race, arguing in part that he doesn't really represent the GOP and his candidacy was a sham pushed by Democrats designed to rig the election."

Winiewski ran as a republican candidate even though he was recruited to do so by the democrats.... Zeigelbauer used to be a democrat and while in office left the party and made a hard-right stance on most issues.  During the election he ran as an independent and (now) in office caucuses with the republicans.  The question that never was answered (which was why the dems ran Winiewski) was why Zeigelbauer wouldn't run as a republican when his 'new' ideology aligned him with the party.  My guess is either that the republicans thought his previous inclusion in the democratic party would sink his campaign or that it was a calculated move on the part of the GOP to take democrats who voted for him previously into this campaign knowing that if he ran as a republican they would flee.... We'll never really know.

The point is that democrats have done this once before.... but not in a manner which cost the state the money this did.  Since Winiewski ran in the general election, which was being held anyway, the state did not have to foot the bill for primaries in a special election where primaries would not normally occur.


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RE: Wisconsin Fake Dems lose big time - 7/15/2011 12:02:45 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I read the article, it is a republican being run as a republican.  You wouldn't call say Ronald Reagan a democrat now, would you?

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Wisconsin Fake Dems lose big time - 7/15/2011 12:23:57 PM   
kat321


Posts: 66
Joined: 2/4/2011
Status: offline 		Except that Wiesnewski was recruited by democrats and upheld the platform of a democrat while running on a republican ticket without the support of the GOP.

If one were to follow your logic, the GOP candidates whom all espoused GOP values and just ran in the democratic primaries here are all democrats. They were not.

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RE: Wisconsin Fake Dems lose big time - 7/15/2011 12:27:08 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		This is why I never buy Wisconsin cheese.

(in reply to kat321)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Wisconsin Fake Dems lose big time - 7/15/2011 12:28:05 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		That is incorrect in whole and in part.

Zeigelbauer used to be a democrat and while in office left the party and made a hard-right stance on most issues.  During the election he ran as an independent and (now) in office caucuses with the republicans. 

Thats who recruited your guy.

Reagan used to be a democrat, and so what?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Wisconsin Fake Dems lose big time - 7/15/2011 12:28:37 PM   
kat321


Posts: 66
Joined: 2/4/2011
Status: offline 		Why not?  Our cows are much happier than California cows!  :D

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RE: Wisconsin Fake Dems lose big time - 7/15/2011 12:29:57 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Nothing beats New York cheddar.

Nothing.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Wisconsin Fake Dems lose big time - 7/15/2011 1:09:13 PM   
kat321


Posts: 66
Joined: 2/4/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

That is incorrect in whole and in part.

Zeigelbauer used to be a democrat and while in office left the party and made a hard-right stance on most issues.  During the election he ran as an independent and (now) in office caucuses with the republicans. 

Thats who recruited your guy.

Reagan used to be a democrat, and so what?


First, there is no "my guy" in this.  I believe the running of all fake candidates is wrong no matter who does it. 

Next, I am not sure what you are saying or what point you are trying to make.  Please be clear.  What are you arguing with?

The democrats, specifically through a union, in 2010 recruited Weisnewski to run as a republican when he was not.  His platform was a democratic platform and he made no effort to hide this.  Do you contest this?

Zeigelbauer ran as an independent in 2010. He was not responsible for the recruiting of other candidates.  The last part of his previous term and during this current term which began this year, his stance has been with the republicans.  Since his political conversion, he has voted for the budget repair bill (anti-collective bargaining,) for corporate tax breaks, against emergency contraceptives for rape victims, and against regulations for wetlands control, payday loan companies, etc. Do you contest any of this? 

There was a legitimate democrat on the 2010 ballot (Kerry Trask).  Do you contest this.

I am not sure if you are 1) confusing the special elections last Tuesday where the repubs ran fake dem candidates with the information on the 2010 election- which I posted to satisfy the curiosity of another poster who asked for when the dems ran fake repub candidates in the past, or 2) confusing the platforms of the candidates in the 2010 election or 3) confusing something else entirely. 

I wouldn't call Reagan a democrat.  I wouldn't call Weisneski a republican in 2010.  For that matter I wouldn't call Zeigelabuer an independent in 2010 either.  Finally, I wouldn't call Junkermann, Weix, Huber, Church, Buckstaff or Smith (all who ran as fake dems recruited by the GOP to run in last Tuesday's election) democrats. 



(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Wisconsin Fake Dems lose big time - 7/15/2011 1:28:13 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		http://www.leadertelegram.com/blogs/tom_giffey/article_b6b84b10-acb0-11e0-8e3a-001cc4c03286.html

(I belive the italics at the end of this article, since it is born out by several disparate accounts)

I am confusing nothing.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Wisconsin Fake Dems lose big time - 7/15/2011 1:51:56 PM   
kat321


Posts: 66
Joined: 2/4/2011
Status: offline 		There is nothing in your link that contradicts anything I said. 

What's laughable in all of this back and forth banter, is that you an I basically agree that this type of ploy is wrong. I pointed out before that Weisnewski was run through the unions, but be it union (democrat) or GOP, the tactic is abhorrent; the scam looks no better if the democrats try to hide their involvement by having a labor union operative do their dirty work.  I don't agree with the editorial's caveat that having someone else 'take care of business' makes the situation different.   What makes the GOP look so bad in last Tuesday's special election is that they were upfront from the beginning about funding fake candidates and forcing the tax payers to foot the bill for their folly. 


If you weren't mistaken about anything, can you explain why you infer here that Zeigelbauer recruited Weisnewski?

"[Me as quoted by You]:  Zeigelbauer used to be a democrat and while in office left the party and made a hard-right stance on most issues.  During the election he ran as an independent and (now) in office caucuses with the republicans.  (itallics and bold were added by you) 

[You]:  Thats who recruited your guy."

There is no evidence that Zeigelbauer hired the union operative to split the vote so that he could possibly lose the election.  While I admire the deviousness in thinking that "OK, we hire the union guy to get a fake conservative to run, and then cry foul that the democrats are playing unfair," even I am not cynical enough to believe that is what happened. 



(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Wisconsin Fake Dems lose big time - 7/15/2011 2:22:25 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		No we basically do not agree.  There is no etching in space-time that says that unions are democratic in party nature.

This is where I based most of my stuff.
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20100725/GPG0101/7250664/Wisconsin-Assembly-candidate-Andrew-Wisniewski-put-back-ballot

I did perhaps confuse you, I thought for a moment that you were saying the Z guy was not a pub.  I believe the W guy is a pub. And I dont think that you can charge from anything I have seen, unless you have more that Seidel ran a scam, it wouldnt be the first time that unions have backed carefully chosen candidates of the republican party.

The idea I am getting is that this W guy (why do cheeseheads have to have such long names?  but you know who  I am discussing, I hope) was chosen as a republican of moderation for a district that looks heavily republican by a union political organizer.

But, the thing that is different in any case, is that the republican party scammed the people as a party, if all what you say is true, a non-government entity scammed a district.

That is two wholly different things in terms of lese majeste.

While the US government in its years has involved itself in torture, there never was a policy and promulgation of torture defended by that government until the days of W.

Same here, to pervert governmental choice of the people by design is not on the same order by several gallactic magnatudes in my mind.

We take enough fuckin from the government as is.

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(in reply to kat321)
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