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Hippiekinkster -> Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/14/2011 4:02:05 PM)

"............Down but not out: Voices of the long-term unemployed

By Zachary Roth - Senior National Affairs Reporter

You can read all the stats you want on America's long-term jobless crisis. More than 6.3 million Americans have been out of work for more than half a year. The average jobless stint now lasts longer than nine months. We could go on.

But no facts or figures bring home the grim human dimension of this epidemic better than an account we received from an unemployed Iraq War veteran. "I have led men in combat, but my last job was a temporary cashier position in the women's department at Nordstrom's," he wrote. "I don't get many interviews, but when I do, I get a lot of handshakes and a 'Thank you for your service, but you're not what we're looking for.'"

Nor can they top this description from a reader of what it's like to go for months searching fruitlessly for work: "You start to hear a voice in your head that tells you, 'Perhaps you're just not good enough.'"

When we asked readers recently to share their personal stories of being out of work for an extended period, we expected to get a lot of responses. But we didn't foresee the flood that ensued. "I imagine that you will have to hire more staff to wade through all the emails you get in response to this article," one reader wrote. It turned out she was right: That's exactly what we did.

The thousands of anecdotes you sent us offer a heart-rending glimpse inside the reality of long-term joblessness during the Great Recession and its aftermath. They convey sadness, anxiety, anger, shame, and despair, but sometimes also humor, generosity, and a quintessentially American determination to roll with the punches. And they offer a portrait of out-of-work people who are smart, articulate, motivated, and resilient--a useful corrective to some of the negative stereotypes that too often shape perceptions of this huge group of Americans."

>snip<

"How it all Began: "When the economy imploded in 2009, nobody was building anything"

Many readers described how they first became jobless, with tales that often seemed ripped from the bleak headlines of the last few years--taking in everything from the mortgage meltdown to the housing bust to government budget cuts.

• George C. from Brea, Calif., told us he worked for a bank that had a division that made sub-prime loans. After the housing bust hit, "the federal government ordered the company to cease & desist from all sub-prime operations, because they didn't like banks that were also sub-prime mortgage companies, so that division of the company was shut down," George wrote. Ultimately, the other divisions of the bank were sold, "at which time there was no more work for me to do."

• "I was a steel building detailer with just over 14 years of experience," Tom W. from New Haven, Ind., told us. "When the economy imploded in 2009, nobody was building anything. With no work, my employer was forced to lay off everyone."

• Shannon B., a teacher and school administrator from Phelan, Calif., wrote that she lost her job in February 2009. "When the budget slashes hit, my position was the first to go."

• Jerry, from southern California, told us he had worked in the electrical distribution industry for more than 25 years. "I lost my job in August of 2008 when the housing bubble and second Great Depression were hitting hard. The branch I worked in closed, since the industry relies heavily on new construction."

• "I never saw being let go coming," wrote Elizabeth M., who worked at an educational center. "I simply showed up less and less on the work schedule. Then, after 2 weeks of not appearing at all, I received a voice mail via my cell phone that informed me they were actually letting me go. (Whatever happened to telling someone to their face?)"

The Emotional Toll: "I hide my emotions, but deep down I feel I am dying off"

Your tales of losing long-held jobs--often with minimal advance notice or human consideration--were bracing. But more compelling still were the numerous accounts of how long-term joblessness has affected you personally and psychologically.

• Perhaps no testimony was bleaker than a note we received from Peter K., who said he used to be a middle manager making over $100,000 a year. His life now? "Stay up too late at night and sleep too long in the morning. Drink way too much … stare at the computer screen, stare out the window, stare at your image in the mirror, stare at the ceiling fan … Social life--none. I'm no fun. Sex--none. Women would sooner hear you have Hepatitis then learn you're unemployed … Depressed--big time. Think suicide every day."

• Scott V. told us that when his money began to run out and he didn't know how he was going to feed his children, he had the same thought. "To be extremely honest I thought of taking the easy way out, which probably many people have. I read an internet article a couple of weeks ago about some 22 (?) year old ending her life because she had no job and too many bills that she couldn't handle. Of course I didn't do that, because I consider myself a strong person and I have a lot to live for."

• "Most of the time you can barely get out of bed because you worry so much about your future," wrote Todd L. of Houston, Tex. "I feel so behind, especially when talking to my peers. Several of them have already moved on from their first job to their second one. Many are in long-term relationships, something I know I can never have without a job and financial stability. I feel so ... behind. I have grown much more envious of others lately."

• Stefan K., from South Bend, Ind., told us he'd been out of work for going on two years. "After a few months pass by, you start to take it personally," he wrote. "You start to hear a voice in your head that tells you, 'Perhaps you're just not good enough.' You know it's not true, but it feels true. You then began to feel ashamed when people, who know of your situation, keep asking if you've found a job yet."

• Paul K. described how both he and his fiancée--who is also contending with a long-term bout of joblessness--have seen their relationship suffer as a result of their shared plight. "It's very depressing and has caused many arguments and led to a very unhappy life for us for the last 2-3 years," he wrote. "We now sleep late because we have no money to do anything. Gas costs too much so most days we stay home and just watch TV. It's making me anxious, depressed, and my confidence is all but gone. I pray for a miracle at this point."

• The pain of long-term unemployment doesn't only affect layoff casualties--it's also assailed many first-time entrants into the job market. Jill B. of Jonesboro, Ark. got a master's degree last year, but it didn't help her. "The hardest part of this experience has been having to come home, tail tucked, as a failure," she wrote. "Out of necessity, I am now living with my parents again in a rural, Arkansas town. For financial reasons, I had to leave the thriving job market of Austin, Texas to come back to a place where there are no jobs at all."

• "I hide my emotions, but deep down I feel I am dying off," wrote Jeremy L., from Waupaca, Wisc. "I smile less. Friends don't call me anymore to do things because I can't afford to. I feel like a hermit living under a rock. I feel worthless. I feel like I'm pulling my girlfriend and daughter into a hole with me. Our once loving relationship has turned bitter and sour."

The Financial Strain: "I am scared to death of what lies ahead"

Of course, there's no way to overstate the financial impact of being without a steady income for an extended period. The notes and comments you submitted show the remarkable lengths that some of you have gone just to keep your heads above water.

• A 62-year-old Ohio man, W.M., told us he'd been forced to take contract work in South Carolina and Indiana. "I am the new migrant worker," he wrote. "I get home to see my family when I can. I have about 1/3 less salary and no benefits but I can pay my way."

• Some readers said they were selling their possessions to support themselves. "I have also sold my clothing, many of our belongings, and baby items on Craigslist and in consignment shops," M.N. wrote. "I add oatmeal to many of my dishes to extend the idea of 'beef', as well as buying generics. We've [gotten rid of] all memberships to gyms and cable TV. We are trying to live a more simple life."

• Some have been relying on family or friends. "I am in default for last year's property taxes, and now stand to lose my home of 23 years," wrote Vicki J. of Garland, Tex. "Had it not have been for a friend of mine helping me, I wouldn't have even had electricity or food for the past three months."

• Others are seeking a fresh start. "We can't afford the house payments anymore, but our house lost about 50% of its value, so we can't sell," wrote Shannon B. "We simply cannot live on my husband's salary. We are filing for bankruptcy."

• Judy J. from Catawba, N.C., described paying for groceries with WIC checks--a form of government assistance--and worrying about delaying people behind her in line. "A few times I offered to let someone cut because 'this is going to take a while,'" she wrote. "[B]ut they say, 'No, it's okay. I'm on WIC, too, so I understand.'"

• Karen P. from Maryland told us she had to move back in with her mother at the age of 40, and that her jobless benefits will run out in January. "I am scared to death of what lies ahead," she added. "I have no idea if I will find a job or not."

• And in a harrowing detail that evokes the hardships of an earlier time, M.C. wrote: "My family is eating stir-fried dandelions out of yards to keep from starving."

Trials of the Job Search: "We can't hire any more old people"

Landing a new job in this economy is tough no matter who you are. But when you've already been out of work for so long, it can be even harder.

• We asked whether employers were wary of hiring readers when they found out how long they'd been jobless -- a form of discrimination that appears to have been on the rise lately. "Very much so," replied Susan W. "As if it were my fault I was unemployed, regardless of the fact that I had put out hundreds of resumes and applications."

• Many readers described a daunting level of competition for openings. "In my area, Elkhart County, Ind.., unemployment had gotten so bad that 1200 people applied for 10 openings at one company," wrote Jason G. (Incidentally, if Elkhart rings a bell, that might be because it's where President Obama launched his effort to get the economy moving again almost two and a half years ago.)

• "I applied at one place that literally handed out raffle tickets and the winning 100 tickets were the only ones that got to apply," wrote M.O. "Of course my number wasn't one of them."

• An enormous number of older readers said they think their age is part of the problem for employers. Paula S., from Acworth, Georgia, who said she was "sixty-something," described "two eye-opening experiences of blatant age discrimination . . . . One twenty-something supervisor asked me if I had ever thought about coloring my hair . . . . Another manager told his assistant with the door open when I showed up to complete an application and interview: 'We can't hire any more old people.' "

• Britt S. said he'd tried to transition into another career after getting laid of from his newspaper job. But, "if an employer has a choice between a 27-year-old with a degree and 3 or 4 years of experience and a 57-year-old with the same degree and no experience, who is most likely to get the job?" he asked.

• Even Dan H., a skilled telecommunications technician in Scottsdale, Ariz., who's not exactly long in the tooth, told us he thought his age worked against him. "I do believe that being 37 was a factor in being passed over for jobs," he wrote. "[T]echnology is a young man's game. Potential employers thought I may be rusty with my skills … Trained to an expert level, but no one can afford to hire me."

Tips for Jobseekers: "Any job is a good job"

Many readers who had ultimately landed a job were eager to share what worked for them.

• "Network, network, network. I can't say it enough," wrote E.S., from San Diego, Calif. "LinkedIn is awesome, but enlist your Facebook contacts, or join a networking group. I know it's horrible to ask your friends to keep their eyes out, but in the end that's how I got hired. When you know someone who knows someone, who can vouch for you, you have a much better chance of getting a job with the company you want/in the field you want."

• Kurt G., from Seattle, Wash., thinks the face-to-face meeting is the key. "It doesn't matter what skills you have, and it doesn't matter what skills the employers say they want," he wrote. "What matters is having the skills that get you through the interview process. Focus like a laser on the interview process. If you're successful there, you'll get an offer, and after that, it's up to the employer to retrain you."

• Susan W. suggested making a nuisance of yourself. "I selected three companies I really wanted to work for, applied and kept going back and going back until they either told me to leave me alone or hired me," she told us. "Two told me to leave them alone, the third hired me."

• Chris C. of Modesto, Calif., had a different strategy: moving into a field traditionally dominated by women -- a trend that's said to be increasingly common for male workers on the job market. "I researched the employment situation where I am living and decided to retrain in something it appeared people would want," he wrote. "After I received my nursing license it took me 3 months to find a full-time job."

• And Cindy S. advised job-seekers not to be too picky. "Don't be afraid to downgrade your expectations," she wrote. "Right now, any job is a good job. When the economy recovers, it will be time to stretch out and seek a job for which you are qualified and paid well for, but right now, income is income."

Solutions to the Crisis: "The vast majority of us are on our own."

A lot of readers had thoughts about how to fix the long-term jobless crisis--or at least how to make things easier for its victims.

• Many respondents lamented the problem of having to compete with cheaper foreign labor. "Make it more difficult to offshore work, or to hire foreign workers at a discount," wrote Kurt G., in a typical comment.

• Yvonne P., from Spring Hill, Tenn. suggested that the government give a "small tax incentive to businesses who hire people who have been unemployed for 6 months or more. Call it, 'Americans Back To Work Tax Break.'" Not a bad idea.

• "There aren't enough resources for retraining, especially of college-educated people," wrote E.S. "The vast majority of us are on our own."

• And Todd L. asked for a little more heart from employers. "I want companies and those who represent them to realize that job applicants and the long-term unemployed are not just resumes in a system," he wrote. "We're real people too. Please treat us like one."

The Unexpected Upside: "We have made some memories that are priceless"

As is no doubt clear by now, the picture that most readers painted of long-term unemployment was overwhelmingly bleak. But that doesn't mean there weren't some respondents who had the strength of mind to also take note of the positives.

• Stephanie B. of Memphis, Tenn., told us she works three part-time jobs and is left on a tighter budget than when she was on jobless benefits. And yet, she wrote: "The one thing that has come out of this experience that I am thankful for and hope I won't ever forget, is the closeness we feel as a family. We can sit down to a checker tournament and play for hours. We can pull out the paper and crayons and create artwork we never had time to do before. There's no more running around nonstop all week long. Most days feel like Saturday when school's out. We entertain ourselves and each other on very little, and I think we have made some memories that are priceless."

>snip<

• And Scott V., who's now working after being jobless for more than two years, told others not to give up. "It does suck, but you can make it," he wrote. "I have been humbled by losing my job almost 3 years ago. Having ZERO dollars in my bank account and very little cash in my wallet. Without the support of my family and the love of my life, to help me get by, I would not have made it this far. I do thank God for all his good graces he has bestowed upon me, which I know I don't deserve. So whoever is reading this, DO NOT sit around waiting for something to happen, make it happen.""

WHERE ARE THE JOBS, REPUBLICANS???





Termyn8or -> RE: Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/14/2011 4:36:09 PM)

Where are the jobs anybody.

Job creation is a fucking myth. If anyone thinks the government can "create" jobs with the stroke of a pen, I don't know what to tellya. It ain't that simple. If it were you would see jobs appear magically right before every election. Of course they would be gone afterward. Facts are facts. This is going to be worse than the first big depression, know why ? Back then we could borrow enough to create jobs to fuel the war machine. Now we can't. In fact even defense jobs are outsourced. Why ?

They outsouced almost all the brownware manufacturing to save money, but the consumer didn't save so much, someone pocketed the difference. Defense, or I should call it offense manufacturing is outsourced to save money, but like anything else we don't see those savings, they go into someone's pocket. That's business and until that changes we are sliding down at an alarming rate.

I have skills, I can do many things. Nobody has the money to pay me. I have been in a couple of businesses and I know I would have to be a fool to start one now. There is something out there but it takes a really unique idea, something that nobody has treid before. With six billion people on the planet, mathematically it's not easy to do.

Germany went to a four day week. Manufacturers in the US found out a long time ago that during overtime production levels dropped - go figure, people get tired. Yet we cling to this 40 hour a week shit. I haven't worked forty hours in a week in over ten years. Didn't have to. If I had I would have put away a bunch of money that would be worth a hell of a lot less today. Some people did just that. Inflation does not encourage savings to say the least, and if you could buy things that are durable it would be a good investment. But everything built today doesn't just incorporate planned obsolescence, it incorporates planned failure. I can prove it by showing you actual designs of consumer products and a few other thngs. And really if I were manufacturing, what would I do ? What would you do ? Secure the future via future sales, for work myself and my employees out of a job by building things to last a lifetime ?

When the shit hits the fan, things will adjust themselves. First of all through drought, famine, war and whatever else they think up, there will be less people. And automation and advanced manufacturing techniques are not going to disappear. People will be less busy. That's bad for those who profiteer off this shit, but good for everyone else. Gone will be people who must have new stuff all the time. That trait will be abated. There will be less moneychanging, and an economy that fits. Sensible government, quite a few other things.

But we will all be dead.

T^T




jlf1961 -> RE: Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/14/2011 4:43:42 PM)

The Republicans have done nothing to stimulate jobs since they took the house, they have done quite a bit trying to save the rich and big business money.




Termyn8or -> RE: Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/14/2011 4:56:02 PM)

I understand.

Now follow the logic. If a door is left open that means nobody closed it. Nothing has been done so therefore nobody has done anything. If anyone had, something would have been done.

Party lines ? They are imaginary. There is very little difference in the rhetoric, and even less in the actions. There is no difference whatsoever in the substance - zero equals zero in any number system.

T^T




Kaliko -> RE: Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/14/2011 5:10:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Where are the jobs anybody.

Job creation is a fucking myth. If anyone thinks the government can "create" jobs with the stroke of a pen, I don't know what to tellya. It ain't that simple. If it were you would see jobs appear magically right before every election. Of course they would be gone afterward. Facts are facts. This is going to be worse than the first big depression, know why ? Back then we could borrow enough to create jobs to fuel the war machine. Now we can't. In fact even defense jobs are outsourced. Why ?

They outsouced almost all the brownware manufacturing to save money, but the consumer didn't save so much, someone pocketed the difference. Defense, or I should call it offense manufacturing is outsourced to save money, but like anything else we don't see those savings, they go into someone's pocket. That's business and until that changes we are sliding down at an alarming rate.

I have skills, I can do many things. Nobody has the money to pay me. I have been in a couple of businesses and I know I would have to be a fool to start one now. There is something out there but it takes a really unique idea, something that nobody has treid before. With six billion people on the planet, mathematically it's not easy to do.

Germany went to a four day week. Manufacturers in the US found out a long time ago that during overtime production levels dropped - go figure, people get tired. Yet we cling to this 40 hour a week shit. I haven't worked forty hours in a week in over ten years. Didn't have to. If I had I would have put away a bunch of money that would be worth a hell of a lot less today. Some people did just that. Inflation does not encourage savings to say the least, and if you could buy things that are durable it would be a good investment. But everything built today doesn't just incorporate planned obsolescence, it incorporates planned failure. I can prove it by showing you actual designs of consumer products and a few other thngs. And really if I were manufacturing, what would I do ? What would you do ? Secure the future via future sales, for work myself and my employees out of a job by building things to last a lifetime ?

When the shit hits the fan, things will adjust themselves. First of all through drought, famine, war and whatever else they think up, there will be less people. And automation and advanced manufacturing techniques are not going to disappear. People will be less busy. That's bad for those who profiteer off this shit, but good for everyone else. Gone will be people who must have new stuff all the time. That trait will be abated. There will be less moneychanging, and an economy that fits. Sensible government, quite a few other things.

But we will all be dead.

T^T


NM





erieangel -> RE: Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/14/2011 5:38:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I understand.

Now follow the logic. If a door is left open that means nobody closed it. Nothing has been done so therefore nobody has done anything. If anyone had, something would have been done.

Party lines ? They are imaginary. There is very little difference in the rhetoric, and even less in the actions. There is no difference whatsoever in the substance - zero equals zero in any number system.

T^T



except for the fact that the Dems in Congress could write all the job-creating bills they pleased, they'd never get a vote, Boehner wouldn't allow that to happen.




joether -> RE: Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/14/2011 5:52:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Where are the jobs anybody.

Job creation is a fucking myth. If anyone thinks the government can "create" jobs with the stroke of a pen, I don't know what to tellya. It ain't that simple. If it were you would see jobs appear magically right before every election. Of course they would be gone afterward. Facts are facts. This is going to be worse than the first big depression, know why ? Back then we could borrow enough to create jobs to fuel the war machine. Now we can't. In fact even defense jobs are outsourced. Why ?

They outsouced almost all the brownware manufacturing to save money, but the consumer didn't save so much, someone pocketed the difference. Defense, or I should call it offense manufacturing is outsourced to save money, but like anything else we don't see those savings, they go into someone's pocket. That's business and until that changes we are sliding down at an alarming rate.

I have skills, I can do many things. Nobody has the money to pay me. I have been in a couple of businesses and I know I would have to be a fool to start one now. There is something out there but it takes a really unique idea, something that nobody has treid before. With six billion people on the planet, mathematically it's not easy to do.

Germany went to a four day week. Manufacturers in the US found out a long time ago that during overtime production levels dropped - go figure, people get tired. Yet we cling to this 40 hour a week shit. I haven't worked forty hours in a week in over ten years. Didn't have to. If I had I would have put away a bunch of money that would be worth a hell of a lot less today. Some people did just that. Inflation does not encourage savings to say the least, and if you could buy things that are durable it would be a good investment. But everything built today doesn't just incorporate planned obsolescence, it incorporates planned failure. I can prove it by showing you actual designs of consumer products and a few other thngs. And really if I were manufacturing, what would I do ? What would you do ? Secure the future via future sales, for work myself and my employees out of a job by building things to last a lifetime ?

When the shit hits the fan, things will adjust themselves. First of all through drought, famine, war and whatever else they think up, there will be less people. And automation and advanced manufacturing techniques are not going to disappear. People will be less busy. That's bad for those who profiteer off this shit, but good for everyone else. Gone will be people who must have new stuff all the time. That trait will be abated. There will be less moneychanging, and an economy that fits. Sensible government, quite a few other things.

But we will all be dead.

T^T


Do you really understand how much $10 Billion in Federal Spending buys in US Jobs? About 65,000. That's broken down in to three distinctive groups:

A) Private Sector - This group is the largest of the three. This is the 'Goverment to Business' and 'Business to Goverment' transactions that take place. It is employers whom have hired people to operate and handle the business for better profit when dealing with the US Goverment. Or do you really think the US Goverment both develops and creates all those F-22 Raptors 'in house'? That the US Military is supplied all its food for the MRE's from 'goverment owned farms' and not from private companies in the agriculture business? That all those soda vending machines are there and stocked (Daily in some cases) by companies out of the goodness of their hearts?

B) Public Sector - This group is the smallest of the three. These are the folks that have specialized skills and knowledge that run the goverment's various operations and programs that serve tens of millions of Americans on a daily basis. They cover every industry and in many goverment functions (do you actually think Rep. Cantor writes his bills for Congress?).

C) Down Stream - This is the second largest group (and larger then group B). The workers in both groups A and B have bills to pay (car, house, utility, etc) and things they buy (food, cloths, trips, gas, etc). They dont get this stuff out of thin air; but rather give those dollars to other companies serving those needs and wants. The more business one of these locations gets, the more likely they will to hire more workers to handle the operations.

When the actual spending is cut, it can take upwards of 3-6 months before groups A and B are removed from the working field and on into unemployment. Those in group C, enter the unemployment area six to ten months afterward. Those are the conservative figures (not to be misunderstood as something conservatives would agree with). More 'realistic' figures are just....more....ugly to look at. Those in small businesses (which accounts for 84% of US Companies), will generally feel federal spending cuts sooner than large corporations.

And that's with $10 Billion in Spending. For $100 Billion in Federal Spending, is not simply ten times the amount of the first. Due to the scales of economics at work, the Federal Goverment pays for about 700,000-950,000 jobs. $826 Billion Defense Budget buys ALOT of US Jobs!

For each $100 Billion in Federal Spending cut, will cost Americans ALOT of additional punishment. Cutting down the Deficit with ONLY spending cuts will be like sending 11.5 Million Americans to unemployment. Does that sound like an intelligent idea to you? Given the knowledge that the supply of jobs is in the 'endangered species' list, and the supply of workers makes it an AWESOME Employeer market, doesn't really help the problems the United States is facing.

Seriously Termie, the Federal Goverment has created jobs and maintains those jobs. And those jobs, go a long way towards creating new jobs. Removing the federal spending during a bad economic situation does nothing to help the recovery and the start of a growing economy. The Democrats are coming to the table with the spending cuts, knowing all to well, what is going to happen. Its the Republicans and/or their conservative voters that are just plain ignorant of the reality. I'm sure there will be many, a conservative, who loses their job, because they support the spending cuts. People tend to call that 'irony' or 'karma'. Dont support the Republican's plan, unless your fully ready to accept the negative parts of it (and there are ALOT of negatives to it).

I dont do this because I want to 'slam' you Termie. I really want you to understand what your asking/saying regarding US Federal spending. and/or cuts to it. I understand your situation is bad. Really...., if I could do something about it, I'd ask in a private Cm mail. The best I can give you, is the hope that something, somewhere, somehow, 'drops into your lap' that improves things on your end.




TheHeretic -> RE: Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/14/2011 6:38:45 PM)

Interesting read, Hippie.

Thanks for posting it.




outhere69 -> RE: Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/14/2011 7:03:13 PM)

I read about a dispatcher's job in northern Indiana (may have been Elkhart; they specialize in RVs and the sector tanked.)  They got so many apps that they kept running out of fax paper.  They tossed anyone considered overqualified.  That happens in a lot of places, since the employer assumes you'll leave as soon as a better job opens up.

Seems like the unemployed get hammered no matter what.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/14/2011 7:47:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel




except for the fact that the Dems in Congress could write all the job-creating bills they pleased, they'd never get a vote, Boehner wouldn't allow that to happen.



The fact is that the only "job creating bills" are those that reduce taxes and regulations. Read my lips: it is impossible for the government to create net jobs. Even Obama laughs at the idea of "shovel ready jobs". If the Dems get serious about "creating jobs" by getting the fuck out of the way, they will have plenty of GOP votes.




Marini -> RE: Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/14/2011 7:53:10 PM)

Great topic HK!

As we sit on the brink of the next big DEPRESSION, I don't understand why we don't see more topics and threads, around here on the long term unemployed!

The long term/and many short term unemployed are in a PERILOUS situaton, people are losing homes left and right, lines at food banks and shelters are growing, people are going through their savings and retirements, many people are losing everything they have spent a lifetime working for, and so many people are in terrible just terrible situations!

We are on the brink of a national crisis!!!

I think we need a thread on bringing manufacturing BACK to the States, I guess I will start one.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/14/2011 8:13:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Interesting read, Hippie.

Thanks for posting it.
You're welcome. Beyond all the posturing and grandstanding, real people are being affected by economic policy.

A strong America begins with a strong middle class. And, for the past 40 years or so, that middle class has been steadily eroded. Kids today think that outsourcing began with sending IT jobs to Mumbai. History lesson, kiddies: back in my day all the transistor radios were made in Japan. "Made in Japan" was synonymous with "Cheap Labor".

And the Unions back then started a "Made in USA" campaign. "Out of Work? Starving? Eat Your Toyota" was a common bumper sticker. The Unions tried to keep jobs in this country.

Now, of course, Unions are "evil, communist, Satanic", whatever, and it's just fine and dandy that your whole life is made in China because, by Gowadduh, that's the "Free Market" which is even holier than Jeebus Christ in the Conservative Pantheon.

I say Fuck the Free Market, and Fuck the US Chamber of Commerce, and Fuck those 1% of "Americans" who own 85% of the stock in companies who sent all YOUR (Americans) jobs to Viet Nam and Myanmar and, of course, the Peoples Republic of Walmart.

UP! with Unions! And UP! with the Middle Class and UP! with jobs for Americans BY REAL AMERICANS!




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/14/2011 8:24:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Great topic HK!

As we sit on the brink of the next big DEPRESSION, I don't understand why we don't see more topics and threads, around here on the long term unemployed!

The long term/and many short term unemployed are in a PERILOUS situaton, people are losing homes left and right, lines at food banks and shelters are growing, people are going through their savings and retirements, many people are losing everything they have spent a lifetime working for, and so many people are in terrible just terrible situations!

We are on the brink of a national crisis!!!

I think we need a thread on bringing manufacturing BACK to the States, I guess I will start one.
Thanks, babe. Dunno if you've noticed or not, but I tend not to start threads like
"When Mister Hopey and Changey gets in over his head... ", as I prefer to converse at an adult level.

I completely agree that we need to have all the jobs that the cheap-labor conservatives exported to third-world countries brought back to the US, and those that fill those jobs need to be paid living wages.




Termyn8or -> RE: Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/14/2011 9:21:38 PM)

"Do you really understand how much $10 Billion in Federal Spending buys in US Jobs? "

I remember when jobs in the US brought in tax dollars, not cost tax dollars.

What you describe sounds like the trickle down theory, which really sounded good at the time. Now we know better. Other than improvements to the infrastructure, what kind of jobs do taxes create ? You would think that a better infrastructure would be more appealing to business, and it is in countries that don't have strangling regulations. It's not just the cheap labor, it's the new roads, sewers and the lack of congestion. Look at almost all the manufacturing jobs left in NE Ohio for example. They are not in the rotting cities, they are out in the suburbs.

What's more, those jobs usually don't pay enough to live independently in those suburbs. People are driving forty miles each way to work. All the good paying jobs produce nothing for export, and they are in the inner ring suburbs or the cities. And get this straight, until we export a hell of alot more - at least less than we import - nothing will get better.

Now what I said about the situation correcting itself, if a default could even be averted permanently, it does no good. Keep sending that money out of the country and it's like adding water to soup. A simple concept but seemingly taught better in home economics than economics.

The fact is that people go to school for economics to make money, not to save the country. They become experts on the flimflam job going on every day in our financial institutions but have no concept of true wealth, except as it may apply to a foreign exchange rate. Speaking of which, that is part of the correction. In time most people simply won't be able to afford anything imported.

There is nothing they can do about this. The borrowing is just a stop gap measure at best, and it is starting to fail. The fact is the captains of industry and the elected officials care about as much about this country as an old pair of socks. All they care about is their own personal net worth.

It goes back farther than JFK even. Ask not what your country can do for you - BULLSHIT, we PAY them to do for us. If they did something for us, we might return the favor but unless they do, I won't lift a finger. Nobody should.

So $10 billion would create 65,000 jobs supposedly. Well then wouldn't $100 billion create 650,000 ? That's about $154,000 per job right ? Now if half of that is labor, upper management takes about 75% of it leaving how much per regular employee ? Just what are those people going to buy with that money ? Whatever it is, less than half of it will have been built here, so that amounts to sending money out of the country. More junk that will fill our landfills in a year or two.

Our government only sells to us in most cases. The only mass markets they have cornered are things like air, water, gas, electricity. Some of that is being privatized as well. With a captive market they can't make money. You really want THEM creating "jobs" ? What, another swarm of officers to harrass the People ? More caseworkers, tax collectors and regulatory agents ? The latter two are the ones who drove all the good jobs out of this country in the first place.

New outsourcing is different. It used to be labor costs when it cost $50 an hour to get someone to sweep the floor. But things have changed. The unions have mostly lost their teeth. Almost every company manufacturing things now in any serious scale of operations has a two tier pay system. Only the old timers are making the big bucks. All the new hires get scraps. The companies were making money before, but not now, why ?

One thing that would work is someting I proposed a long time ago. Dirty zones. Look at the prevailing air currents (not the winds on a given day) and find places where people will be able to pollute and let the wind literally blow it away. Other countries do it. Why can they shit in the fishtank but we can't ? Progressive, modern, green, you know what industry would tell those other countries where all our factories now reside if they started that shit ? They would move, but not back here, to yet another country. You know why ? Because things can change here at the drop of  hat. The business climate it not only inhospitable, but also unpredictable.

And it's not all stupidity. In N. Royalton, Ohio there was a guy who made a nice pile of money. He bought some land that was zoned single family residential. Then he went to his friends and had the zoning changed to multi family and built apartments. He sold the place as an aprtment complex, not a huge one but in that area the profit potential was there. After he sold it he went back and got it rezoned single residential. I met the famliy who owned it. To say the least they had plenty of room. What's the next step ? Buy it back and get it rezoned again. That is how money is made in this country.

Nobody has any inkling of the effects of what they're doing, and in this case ignorance really is bliss. Because it's shit like this that has wrecked the place.

Other countries ? Well their leaders know what it means to try to get blood out of a turnip. They want to collect taxes. For them to collect taxes people must work. So over there (many places) they know they must work to get the people employed. They have a sense of cause and effect. Now they have half of our good jobs and they would do anything to hold on to them. All our supposed leaders want to do is to regulate them out of business.

No solutions seem apparent. Some say tax the hell out of the companies. Do that and the top brass will just write themselves even bigger paychecks. Tax the individual income and you get more super rich mega corporations that become [drum roll] TOO BIG TO FAIL. They will have a helicopter on every roof and a jet on every airstrip.

You can't legislate morality. You can't legislate patriotism either, and even if you could, foreigners are starting to own a hell of alot here. I know any sloution will take more thought and consideration than seems to be available. Things just got too complex. But I do know this, creating jobs with tax dollars is ridiculous as a concept. It doesn't work, except as another stop gap.

ETA : "I understand your situation is bad."

If you mean me personally, don't worry about it. As much as I don't care about this country I actually do. I just refuse to let it bother me until someone else cares. Personally I have some options, I just don't want to jump feet first. As far as my terminal patriotism, well if other people have money I know how to get it. And I know a regular job is not for me. First of all at my age my chances aren't good for anything like that. But with skills I am fine - IF PEOPLE HAVE MONEY TO SPEND. When I'm ready, I'll make a couple of sacrfices to get into something else. But I'm sure as hell not going to do it until I find out what has a decent chance of success. And then there is what I want to do, and that's starting to look like something I haven't done before. I'm even sick of the remodeling game, otherwise I would've gotten back into it already. For now my attitude is wait and see. Actually, I might find more opportunity as the economy gets worse, because I know how to get things done. Many things.

T^T




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/14/2011 11:10:31 PM)

Term: " What, another swarm of officers to harrass the People ? More caseworkers, tax collectors and regulatory agents ? The latter two are the ones who drove all the good jobs out of this country in the first place."

You were doing sort of OK until you decided, for some bizarre reason, to become a ratfucker echo chamber.

The jobs didn't go to Viet Nam or MyanMar or Sri Lanka or whereever because there were too many regulations. The jobs went because of the .... drum roll, please...

INCOME STATEMENT.

At the top of the Income Statement, just below "Gross Sales" (Revenues)is the "Cost of Goods Sold" part. That's the raw materials. They average about 25%, in businesses that turn out a physical product. In my restaurant, it was "Cost of Food Sold".

That gives you "Net Sales"

From that, you subtract labor, rents, insurance, office supplies, and all that other stuff.

Which gives you EBITDA,

Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation, and Amortization.

After EBITDA, you are left with NET INCOME. That Net Income is either kept as Retained Earnings or paid out as Dividends Paid.

---> Now, in the Real World, about the only item which can be changed so as to influence the Net Income of a corporation is Labor. The lower the cost of Labor, the greater the Net Income. Overhead (in the form of the physical facilities) is normally what they call a "Sunk Cost". The tax rate, from country to country, is, within a narrow range, pretty much the same. All the other stuff in the "Expenses" section is pretty much the same world-wide. The only thing that can change is the cost of labor.

If it costs $.50 to sew a shirt in Tennessee, and only $0.05 to sew one in Hanoi, the company has just saved 90% of its labor cost. If labor is 25% of the COGS (Cost of Goods Sold), and the labor cost is reduced by 95%, well, ...

And then think, if the company has bribed (in conjunction with other companies) Congress to lower the Corporate Tax rate, and if the company then does a Double Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_Arrangement), well, fuck, they can not only avoid taxation, but can get money back from the US Government (typically in the form of Tax Credits).

Then they can turn around and pay lobbyists to plant stories about Welfare Cheats who make off with HUNDREDS Of DOLLARS!!!!








tweakabelle -> RE: Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/15/2011 1:18:34 AM)

These stories are then carried in the Murdoch media such as Fox. Which is a direct beneficiary of the largesse of the US taxpayer. That means, if you are a US taxpayer, your taxes are paying for this entire process.

Murdoch's News Corp "generat[ed] $10.4 billion in profits over the past 4 years, and which would have been expected to pay the IRS $3.6 billion at the statutory corporate tax rate, instead received $4.6 billion back from Uncle Sam. Bottom line: Murdoch's corporation had a cash paid tax rate of -46% between 2007 and 2010."
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28552.htm

You can read a full account of how it's done at the link.




Termyn8or -> RE: Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/15/2011 5:25:36 AM)

"If it costs $.50 to sew a shirt in Tennessee, and only $0.05 to sew one in Hanoi, the company has just saved 90% of its labor cost. If labor is 25% of the COGS (Cost of Goods Sold), and the labor cost is reduced by 95%, well, ... "

I get it, no problem. But when they charge $25 for the shirt ....... How much was a hamburger at your restaurant ? (that was a metaphor, you probably didn't have them, moreover I have had some extremely expensive and excellent burgers, which bore no resemblence to fast food whatsoever)

T^T




samboct -> RE: Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/15/2011 6:34:15 AM)

"I completely agree that we need to have all the jobs that the cheap-labor conservatives exported to third-world countries brought back to the US, and those that fill those jobs need to be paid living wages. "

HK

While I agree with a lot of your points- I'll take exception to this one. It's pretty hard to bring jobs back. Corporations that decide to go and manufacture outside the country have an enormous amount of ego invested, and their management has a very hard time saying- gee we screwed up.

Instead our focus must be on creating new jobs. And in contrast to Wilbur....I will point out that researchers working on health care paid by NIH grants, workers at Lockmart working on F-22s, workers at Electric Boat building submarines, or at Boeing working on spacecraft all have a lot in common- they have good jobs- paid for by the largest customer on the planet- Uncle Sam. And as Joether points out- a job is a job, no matter who's paying for it- and not only that, but some jobs do a lot better than others about creating other jobs. Create a Wal Mart job- well, that's one person. Create a high level manufacturing job- now you've got somebody with money who needs to buy gas, groceries, houses, TVs etc- in a virtuous cycle where jobs create jobs. Here in CT where the focus has been on keeping large companies happy since that's "where the jobs are" in this state- what we've found is that we have terrible job growth and lots of young folks leaving the state- even though per capita. we're one of the richest in the country. IIRC, there's a ratio of about 3:1 of small company employment to large company employment in the US- and CT, with all its focus on keeping jobs in state- have to give tax breaks to those big firms like United Technologies....has about the same ratio.

Job creation happens with new companies. Size is less critical surprisingly. Thus, our best way to create jobs is to have Uncle Sam start buying some stuff- things like new mail trucks which should be electric as well as school buses. Then make sure that they have to be built in the US. New rail- good idea if we can come up with places to put it, and make sure that we're buying US stuff as well.

The one thing CT has gotten right in the past few years is a focus on manufacturing jobs. While low end jobs are going to go to India, there's a lot of high end manufacturing still here, and it's actually growing, although way too slowly.

Of course, the idea that we have to create new wealth is just an anathema to Republicans, who seem to be hell bent on protecting existing money at all costs....


Sam




LillyBoPeep -> RE: Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/15/2011 6:47:02 AM)

i've been trying to find a job since i moved here, and it's been impossible. there are a lot of people who've been laid off from their ordinary jobs who are taking up the "crap" jobs that students who could only work assortments of part-time hours used to take. now i do whatever kind of wacky job comes my way, but they're not really anything you can rely on. i get by, but sometimes it's "gas or food, gas or food."
it does make you feel like, no matter what, there's nothing you can do. other people look at you like you're a loser or there "must be something wrong with you." it's really hard to keep from getting frustrated. i spend hours filling out job applications and nothing really comes from it. =p there are 500 BAJILLION people with less constraints on their time (school, i think, is the #1 thing preventing me from finding a job, but even in spite of taking last semester off, i still couldn't find one due to the "threat" that i would go back. =p)





TheHeretic -> RE: Voices of the long-term Unemployed (7/15/2011 7:15:04 AM)

The article was interesting, Hippie. Your standard rantings, not so much.

Have a happy day!




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