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RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/18/2011 12:32:26 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Yeah, I agree, the Present is the only thing that exists. By definition the Past and Future don't exist, the Past did exist, and the Future will exist, only the Present does exist...but by definition it can't exist....see the problem?

Our experience of the present is colored by everything we have ever experienced and by our expectations of its outcome based thereon. You cannot separate past, present, and future; nor can it be said that there is "only" the present. To talk about the "present" implicates a past and a future; the definitions depend on each other.

Possibly all times are simultaneous, and thus there is merely no "time" as we experience it.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/18/2011 12:34:12 AM >

(in reply to Arpig)
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RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/18/2011 12:39:17 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Like space, it defies comprehension. Three parts, but one concept. And it really can't be proven to exist. The concept however, does. We live like on a razor's edge between the past and future, and we call it the present. It's like a line in the geometrical definition. One dimension, even though other concepts exist, the present is undefinable.

Do you know when midnight is ? Was it when the clock struck twelve or was it after the reflected light from the clock reached your eyes ? What happened during that "time" ? Does the present mean the entire history of mankind, a millenium, a century, a year, a month, a day, an hour, a minute or a second ? How about a picosecond ? How about the time it takes the electrons to get from my keyboard to the motherboard, or to the modem, to the internet, across the WAN to your modem, then your motherboard, and eventually to your monitor ?

But many parts of today's reality only existed as concepts in the past. Let's hope time stays that way. If anyone could manipulate it and change history, it would create a huge mess. Now that I think of it that way, maybe someone has........

T^T

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/18/2011 4:54:36 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
We live like on a razor's edge between the past and future, and we call it the present.

Yes, pretty much what I was suggesting.

quote:


Do you know when midnight is ? Was it when the clock struck twelve or was it after the reflected light from the clock reached your eyes ? What happened during that "time" ? Does the present mean the entire history of mankind, a millenium, a century, a year, a month, a day, an hour, a minute or a second ? How about a picosecond ? How about the time it takes the electrons to get from my keyboard to the motherboard, or to the modem, to the internet, across the WAN to your modem, then your motherboard, and eventually to your monitor ?

It seems that human nature has a tendency to compartmentalise with time as with other endeavours of understanding. We have to measure time so we subtract one day/hour/minute/second/milli-second/pico-second. I suggest time is a continual process that shouldn't be divided to understand the present. I suggest present is merely what we experience presently as per the definition of the word. It is no coincidence presently and present in terms of time are related. They are words human beings created to understand a certain facet of the experience of our consciousness.


quote:


You cannot separate past, present, and future; nor can it be said that there is "only" the present. To talk about the "present" implicates a past and a future; the definitions depend on each other.

Yes present implicates the past or future but rather than present being what doesn't exist according to the early stages of Aristotle's argument as its laid out, its suggested present is the very facet of time that does exist in terms of being the continual state of a conscious individual. If so then the present has a higher ontological status than past or future since we can only project into the past from memory or look forward into the future predictively from a present context.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/18/2011 10:37:40 PM   
Arpig


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And, I think at this point, we have pretty much proved what I said in my OP:
quote:

See...it's fucked up.


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RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/18/2011 11:48:36 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


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Status: offline 		If the past no longer exists, what is a memory?  If a memory is an echo of the past that lingers in the now; what is the now that exists separate of the memory?  If the future reflects the past, which lives as an echo in the now, then all existence is merely time given form that it might study itself.  That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it.

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 7/18/2011 11:55:49 PM >

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RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/19/2011 7:02:13 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		One of the interesting things about Reconnective Healing work...it seems to compress time..a half hour seems to take 5 minutes, for example, when all you're doing is lying there.

Of course, this introduces psychological perception of time along with possible metaphysical dimensional explanations, so isolating that one variable is difficult. But it does work on the light level with DNA, and we already know time stands still at the speed of light.

The next century is going to be filled with fascinating discoveries.

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RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/19/2011 8:17:14 AM   
Iamsemisweet


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RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/19/2011 8:19:02 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

Yes present implicates the past or future but rather than present being what doesn't exist... present is the very facet of time that does exist in terms of being the continual state of a conscious individual.

The "continual state of a conscious individual" is an experience, not a "facet of time" that really "does exist." Not to put too fine a point on it, the "present" cannot be a temporal phenomenon at all, because it has no duration, no extension in time.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/19/2011 8:35:20 PM >

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RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/19/2011 8:58:47 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Yes present implicates the past or future but rather than present being what doesn't exist... present is the very facet of time that does exist in terms of being the continual state of a conscious individual.

The "continual state of a conscious individual" is an experience, not a "facet of time" that really "does exist." Not to put too fine a point on it, the "present" cannot be a temporal phenomenon at all, because it has no duration, no extension in time.

The continual state of a conscious individual is not an experience. It typically involves experience but that does not define it. It is a mental state that is a condition which necessitates the involvement of time due to its continuity.

You were talking about time in relation to human experience. It seems to me that any understanding of time itself relates to how human beings and higher animals experience it.

Purely objective time has no past, present or future. It is events that give such words meaning. Thus the present has a duration which is in a sense deduced according to a given situation. I understand "present" to be to a large extent a kind of phenomenological term relating to experience. The words themselves, presently, presence etc. attest to that view. If you say the present cannot exist then the past or future are also meaningless because they rely on the notion of present for meaning. I made the point that we live in time and cannot understand it outside of a certain inter-subjectivity. Even in a sort of semi-objective scientific perspective, the present in an experiment is understood to be where event X took place, and the past and future contrasted with that. In other words human beings endow a certain meaning to time by understanding it a particular way in different contexts.

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RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/19/2011 9:16:14 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

The continual state of a conscious individual is not an experience...

Given that as your opening premise, there is clearly no need to read further.

K.

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
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RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/20/2011 3:33:07 AM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
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Status: offline 		Given the continually insulting manner of your posts on another thread last week which you and another member effectively got deleted, there was no reason to waste the time replying with an indepth post but did so out of courtesy.

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RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/20/2011 4:38:01 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

Given the continually insulting manner of your posts on another thread last week which you and another member effectively got deleted, there was no reason to waste the time replying with an indepth post but did so out of courtesy.

Ignoring the insulting manner of your post, a non sequitur-salad does not constitute a reply "in depth" or even a reply at all. Here's a news flash for you: Lots of things don't exist which, despite your claim, are in no way rendered "meaningless" thereby.

That said, however, I acknowledge that you are always right, except when you yourself allow that you were wrong about some minor detail that doesn't affect the fundamental rightness of your conclusion, and I thank you very much for your "courtesy."

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/20/2011 4:42:56 PM >

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RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/20/2011 5:32:07 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		"The continual state of a conscious individual is not an experience."
 
You left yourself  w i d e   o p e n  on that one.
 
"Given the continually insulting manner of your posts on another thread last week which you and another member effectively got deleted"
 
That is your opinion, not necesarily that of other members or the staff here. If it were, the thread would still be there and those with whom you disagree would be gone, on vaca-moderation or deleted selectively.
 
Imagine having a quaff in a pub with 41 people and saying ; "The continual state of a conscious individual is not an experience.". Forty of them will laugh. What do you do ? Will you whine that they are being mean or what ? You chose your words incorrectly, so what ? Move on for fuck's sake.
 
This has shown me more. You see when one learns most of the martial arts, one learns that it is not always necessary to block. Sometimes by just yielding you minimize or maybe even completely remove the impact of your opponent's blow, while you let him waste his energy. It's called by some; economy of force. Since you do not proscibe to that, there are only two conclusions I can draw.
 
One is that you are uneducated in such matters and the other is that you have an ulterior motive. If the latter is true, that motive could only be to infuence the content of this site.
 
In other words, your defense reads like an offense.
 
T^T

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RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/20/2011 6:12:41 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Given the continually insulting manner of your posts on another thread last week which you and another member effectively got deleted, there was no reason to waste the time replying with an indepth post but did so out of courtesy.

Ignoring the insulting manner of your post,

You initiated insult in Post 70 by refusing to read the answer - a little stunt I have seen you pull before.

You quoted half a sentence as my "opening premise". That was merely part of said premise. Defining "consciousness" is an issue frought with controversy. It is something thinkers has wrestled with for several millennia so it takes considerable arrogance to dismiss an argument based on the first few words of a sentence.

quote:


a non sequitur-salad does not constitute a reply "in depth" or even a reply at all.

This is nonsense. Let me educate you on what a "non sequitur" is. It simply means "it does not follow." It is the status of an argument. Even a non sequitur still constitutes a reply.

quote:


Here's a news flash for you: Lots of things don't exist which, despite your claim, are in no way rendered "meaningless" thereby.

Some of your replies are little more than words construed as having some profound meaning but in reality are merely attempts to sound superior.

I gave an opinion, it is your right to accept or reject it but here's a news flash for you. You act out with a great deal of immaturity as you did when you destroyed a perfectly OK thread last week with sustained attacks over several pages which resulted in its deletion. Here I provided a civil reply despite your previous behaviour, and still you reply with insult. If you don't want to see any answers from me then I suggest you don't respond in the first place.

quote:


That said, however, I acknowledge that you are always right, except when you yourself allow that you were wrong about some minor detail that doesn't affect the fundamental rightness of your conclusion, and I thank you very much for your "courtesy."

You are extremely welcome. Its funny how those who accuse others of opinionatedness so often possess that very quality themselves. I have acknowledged where I was wrong on a fair few occasions to people like Politesub who I disagree with a fair bit. I have yet to see you do even remotely the same. We must do this again sometime soon.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 7/20/2011 6:48:45 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/20/2011 6:29:44 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
"The continual state of a conscious individual is not an experience."
 
You left yourself  w i d e   o p e n  on that one.

Then I suggest you criticise the argument or shut up.

quote:

 
"Given the continually insulting manner of your posts on another thread last week which you and another member effectively got deleted"
 
That is your opinion, not necesarily that of other members or the staff here. If it were, the thread would still be there and those with whom you disagree would be gone, on vaca-moderation or deleted selectively.

Termy, you and myself discussed controversial matters in a peaceable fashion on a few occasions. Then you started speculating on me personally simply because I disagreed about anti-Semitism and defended Israel. I repeatedly asked Kirata, and a few others like yourself to stop the personal attacks. Kirata refused point blank. I asked him to point to where I lied which he repeatedly claimed and again he refused. Its unacceptable behaviour. If this account is wrong I invite one of the mods that reads this message to correct me.

quote:

 
Imagine having a quaff in a pub with 41 people and saying ; "The continual state of a conscious individual is not an experience.". Forty of them will laugh. What do you do ? Will you whine that they are being mean or what ? You chose your words incorrectly, so what ? Move on for fuck's sake.

I suggest you move on, you are the one dwelling on it here as a pretext to get another dig in. Its not even any of your business.

The fucking sentence was taken out of context. Kirata said to me "The "continual state of a conscious individual" is an experience,". I stated "The continual state of a conscious individual is not an experience. It typically involves experience but that does not define it. It is a mental state that is a condition which necessitates the involvement of time due to its continuity." The discussion was about what consciousness actually is. Consciousness is not merely experience despite what Kirata asserted. It is a mental state that can't merely be defined by one of its products (experience), and in any case consciousness constitutes more than experience. Its not complicated.

quote:

 
This has shown me more. You see when one learns most of the martial arts, one learns that it is not always necessary to block. Sometimes by just yielding you minimize or maybe even completely remove the impact of your opponent's blow, while you let him waste his energy. It's called by some; economy of force. Since you do not proscibe to that, there are only two conclusions I can draw.

Bullshit. I was replying to another person. Someone else stuck their oar in. I replied. He replied in a dismissive fashion. I pointed that out and got another insulting response. To many on here it is just a game to win an argument. I even downplayed the value of my opinions when I first posted on this thread. Now individuals like yourself use it as a ridiculous excuse to attack someone you disagree with yet again. Its time to stop the cheap shots. you can spread as much hate as you like, just don't expect everybody to agree.

quote:

 
One is that you are uneducated in such matters and the other is that you have an ulterior motive. If the latter is true, that motive could only be to infuence the content of this site.

What the fuck is this shit about ulterior motives? How the fuck am I trying to influence content here by merely posting some opinions on the abstract topic of time?

You are the one who tries to influence content on this site by trying to legitimise the most extreme far-right theories and conspiracies. Me uneducated? You have repeatedly shown a startling ignorance on basic history. The truth is that you cannot tolerate disagreement so you sling mud. I have not attacked anybody without them starting on me first.

quote:

 
In other words, your defense reads like an offense.
 

It does to you as you have an agenda and my opinions sometimes get in the way of it. I suggest you lay off the attacks and focus on sharpening up your views if they are lacking.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 7/20/2011 7:15:42 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/20/2011 7:32:53 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"Then I suggest you criticise the argument or shut up. "

You are amazing.

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 7/20/2011 7:38:25 PM >

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RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/20/2011 7:45:13 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		All the shit slinging above aside.....

There's a fundamental assumption in the English language that all things happen in time. There's no objective basis for this assumption. And it's a killer, since the basic structure in English is the subject/verb/(object/complement), and all verbs have tense---when the action happens in time.

But other languages--Hopi is an example--make no such assumption. In Hopi, things exist not in time, but in intensity.

That's a fundamental problem for the premise of much of the above. Time is a local phenomenon, not an absolute.


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RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/20/2011 7:58:04 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
"Then I suggest you criticise the argument or shut up."

I did. But to you criticism of the argument seems to include only criticism from the other side. And, let me know when you can tell me to shut up.

All you said was that 40 out of 41 people in a pub would laugh about that assertion. That's hardly criticism based on an argument. I'll tell you to shut up if you deserve it. You do.

quote:


"Then you started speculating on me personally simply because I disagreed about anti-Semitism and defended Israel."

Not quite. Maybe I chose some words incorrectly but what I have criticised about you is cheifly about your attitude that you are more well informed than anyone. Are you claiming to be special ? You did it many times. You cite your sites knowing that they aren't accepted by some. We have been able to read for some time now. The fact is you are like alot of people, you think you fucking know everything.

To answer your question, yes, I am special and more infromed than everybody else. I fucking know everything. Happy? No! Well I didn't think so.

I quote some sites. Big fucking deal. They are there to back up certain opinions. Others do it as well, often from highly partisan sources. Do you object? Of course not. Again it comes down to a simple point. You disagree with my views so you sling mud.

quote:


"I suggest you move on, you are the one dwelling on it here as a pretext to get another dig in."

You respond, I respond. You got a fucking problem with that it is not mine.

No you responded to an issue that hasn't got anything to do with you. Clean up your own back yard first. By the looks of things it is extremely dirty.

quote:


"The fucking sentence was taken out of context. Kirata said to me "The "continual state of a conscious individual" is an experience,". I stated "The continual state of a conscious individual is not an experience. It typically involves experience but that does not define it. It is a mental state that is a condition which necessitates the involvement of time due to its continuity." "

Then why did he oneup you ? You could've very easily responded that he chose the wrong words and that you responded. That is not what I read. Maybe you thought you wrote that, try a new keyboard. It could never be your fault right ? What's more you were unresponsive in that post. That's my opinion, and you don't like my opinions.

Your viewpoint on this issue is as absurd as usual. I wrote a detailed reply in Post 69. His reply was a one-liner that was pretty dismissive, basically he refused to read the post.

I don't like your opinions but I tolerate them. By contrast you attack me for having opinions you don't like.

quote:


"The discussion was about what consciousness actually is. Consciousness is not merely experience despite what Kirata asserted. It is a mental state that can't merely be defined by one of its product (experience), and in any case consciousness constitutes more than experience. Its not complicated. "

Why didn't you tell him that ?

I did but he refused to read the post.

quote:


"Bullshit. I was replying to another person."

OK, I'll make it a point to post my observations using FR, to the OP or someone else. But I am quite sure that will not satisfy you. You told me to move on. Sorry about your luck.

You misunderstand. I was talking about someone else that decided to reply to me and didn't bother to read a reply.

quote:


"What the fuck is this shit about ulterior motives? How the fuck am I trying to influence content here by merely posting some opinions on the abstract topic of time? "

Because you referred to that other thread and not implied, but flat out accused others of  "getting the thread pulled" or something like that. I assume you did not mean that you had any part in it. No, never. Always right. God damn, it must be nice. Got some winning lottery numbers ? (not Nigerian)

Yeah I flat out accused others of getting the thread pulled. So what, its possible, others have done that on here too. How do I have a part in it. You know I repeatedly asked them to stop the pointless insults that went on for pages and pages. You helped it along too. I told them they were spoiling the thread and was told by at least one that he didn't care.

quote:


"You are the one who tries to influence content on this site by trying to legitimise the most extreme far-right theories and conspiraciesand. Me uneducated? You have repeatedly shown a startling ignorance on basic history."

Ignorance. I must admit that I do ignore all this grade school pablum and seek deeper meanings and aspects of history, which are not taught in the schools or on TV. So I guess you did pick the right word, but what you don't seem to understand is that I didn't swallow. Dig ? I don't buy the party line anymore.

Agreed, you don't buy the party line. Rather you do buy the line (and also the hook and sinker) from conspiracists. I don't dig, I ken. How about you walk before running?

quote:


"It does to you as you have an agenda and my opinions sometimes get in the way of it."

I do have an agenda. I would like to see people think outside the box. You take the box. You support the box. Embrace the box.

Enjoy your box.

For you to truly think outside the box, you need to take a peak inside it occasionally. The box has the chocolates, my friend.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/20/2011 8:00:22 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
"Then I suggest you criticise the argument or shut up. "

You are amazing.

Yeah I guess I am for wanting to reply to actual arguments based on what I say rather than a lot of fairly personal criticisms.

BTW I noticed you deleted 99% of your long post. I replied to it just above before the edit.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 7/20/2011 8:03:57 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Time...the impossible essential. - 7/20/2011 8:04:43 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"Time ... it is just a continuous line of nows ... "

Interesting twist in a way.

Now I type an "N",
Now I type an "O"
Now I type a "W".
Now do I type an "S" ?

It seems to me that when it is possible to divide something in infinitely smaller parts, you get to the point where there are no parts, only the whole. Molecules are made of atoms, atoms are made of subatomic particles, subatomic particles are made of forces. Of what are they made ? And once we find that out, what is next ?

Does Newyear's Day start at midnight, or is when the light reaches your eyes from the clock if it is ultimately accurate ? How far does light travel in a picosecond ? Not far. I think it's about 11.8 thousandths of an inch*. But that amount of time is measurable, in fact if it weren't, modern communications would be impossible.

*might be wrong there, but it doesn't go far.

Look at a picture of a rainbow of color on a PC, now crank the color depth down to 16 bit, next 8 bit (256). The shades of color are gone, with one color abruptly changing to another, but we know those shades are there. But now it's not color, it's colors. Apparently.

Before something is staged in an electron microscope, it is usually sliced down to one molecule thickness. Why can't that slicing machine slice it any thinner ?

T^T

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