How to manufacture 'terrorists' (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/19/2011 10:08:35 PM)

In a new report, No Minor Matter, Israeli human rights organisation B'Tselem details the shocking abuse of Palestinian children and youths under the Israeli military justice system in Occupied Palestine.

Among other revelations:
*Only one Palestinian minor acquitted out of 835 charged with stone-throwing in past six years (a conviction of >99%);
* 93% of all minors convicted of stone throwing were given jail sentences;
* 19 children under age 14, who under domestic Israeli law could not be held in detention have been imprisoned; and
* Assaults of juvenile 'offenders' are commonplace, as is interrogation without parental or legal advisors present, according to the report.
The full report can be read here. A summary is available here.

Some background facts:
*Some 1350 Palestinian children have been killed by the IDF since 2000;
*226 Palestinian children were imprisoned without charge as of April 2011. (Both figures are from the UN http://www.middleeastmonitor.org.uk/news/middle-east/2300-un-official-israeli-occupation-killed-1300-palestinian-children-since-2000)

Prisons are well known as 'universities of crime'. 'Radicalisation' of terrorists is known to happen frequently in prisons. Is Israeli military 'justice' manufacturing the very 'terrorists' we hear Israelis constantly complain about? Is the military 'justice' system systematically terrorising Palestinian children and youths? Is Israel systematically using terror to enforce its rule of Occupied Palestine?



erieangel -> RE: How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/19/2011 10:13:02 PM)

Do you need to ask?



Termyn8or -> RE: How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/20/2011 5:33:30 AM)

It's the same all over when it comes to incarceration. It's not a matter of help. it's an assertation of authority. Punishment for non-obedience. Gives way to more crime, and criminals with more sophisticated techniques. Inmates learn from each other and make connections for life. After all, who can you trust more, an old school chum or a dude you met in the joint ? The answer is obvious.

It works here to justify more tax dollars to "fight crime" quite well. The US is a world leader. In fact we have more people incarcerated here per capita than anywhere else in the world. Prison has become big business.

And we start when they're young here as well. There are no silly laws against incarcerating the young. And they say they think most offenders are young, silly geese. The older ones don't get caught as often. The system is working.

T^T



popeye1250 -> RE: How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/20/2011 12:02:07 PM)

But "stone throwing" is the national pastime over there.
Who do you think would win if it were in the Olympics, the Pals or the Swiss?



Moonhead -> RE: How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/20/2011 12:27:33 PM)

The Americans, if they could get their neocons out of a glass house long enough to participate in the stone throwing event.



willbeurdaddy -> RE: How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/20/2011 12:35:52 PM)

Betselem and "human rights organization" in the same phrase. ROFL. Its a propaganda organization, nothing more.



tweakabelle -> RE: How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/20/2011 10:30:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Betselem and "human rights organization" in the same phrase. ROFL. Its a propaganda organization, nothing more.

Really Willbur! tut! tut! Shooting the messenger again. Don't you think we're getting just a teeny bit bored with this pathetically inadequate response. And pops, do you really need reminding that child abuse is not a matter to be dismissed jokingly?

For me the systematic terrorising of children and youths is a matter that demands to be taken seriously. Any successful prosecution rate of 99% ought to cause questions to be asked on its own. The imprisonment of Palestinian children when Israeli children of the same age are under the age of criminal responsibility (and therefore NOT prosecuted) is a serious cause for concern.

It seems that both Willbur and pops need reminding that this isn't a spectator sport but a matter of life and death in Occupied Palestine. So here's some vision of an Israeli tank firing line shells directly at (unarmed) Palestinian children to show you guys what is at stake here. And some more vision, this time of settler children throwing rocks directly in front of IDF soldiers who refuse to intervene - a graphic illustration of how the law is enforced along blatantly racist lines.

Of course, if the systematic abuse of children is not, in your minds or the minds of pro-Zionists generally, a matter of serious concern, what does that say about you or your cause? It seem pretty obvious that these policies are going to create terrorists out of some of these children. Is that not a matter of concern to Israelis? Or are their complaints about the evils of terrorism yet another exercise in selective indignation?



willbeurdaddy -> RE: How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/20/2011 10:33:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Betselem and "human rights organization" in the same phrase. ROFL. Its a propaganda organization, nothing more.

Really Willbur! tut! tut! Shooting the messenger again. Don't you think we're getting just a teeny bit bored with this pathetically inadequate response. And pops, do you really need reminding that child abuse is not a matter to be dismissed jokingly?

For me the systematic terrorising of children and youths is a matter that demands to be taken seriously. Any successful prosecution rate of 99% ought to cause questions to be asked on its own. The imprisonment of Palestinian children when Israeli children of the same age are under the age of criminal responsibility (and therefore NOT prosecuted) is a serious cause for concern.

It seems that both Willbur and pops need reminding that this isn't a spectator sport but a matter of life and death in Occupied Palestine. So here's some vision of an Israeli tank firing line shells directly at (unarmed) Palestinian children to show you guys what is at stake here. And some more vision, this time of settler children throwing rocks directly in front of IDF soldiers who refuse to intervene - a graphic illustration of how the law is enforced along blatantly racist lines.

Of course, if the systematic abuse of children is not, in your minds or the minds of pro-Zionists generally, a matter of serious concern, what does that say about you or your cause? It seem pretty obvious that these policies are going to create terrorists out of some of these children. Is that not a matter of concern to Israelis? Or are their complaints about the evils of terrorism yet another exercise in selective indignation?



Dont you ever get tired of cleaning your mouth after you vomit forth nonsense like this?



Kirata -> RE: How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/20/2011 11:02:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Dont you ever get tired of cleaning your mouth after you vomit forth nonsense like this?

If you have a case to make against B'Tselem, why don't you present it?

K.



willbeurdaddy -> RE: How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/20/2011 11:25:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Dont you ever get tired of cleaning your mouth after you vomit forth nonsense like this?

If you have a case to make against B'Tselem, why don't you present it?

K.


You mean their exagerations, lies and staging of "documentary videos" that make Michael Moore look honest? You can start with these:

http://cifwatch.com/2011/07/19/harriet-sherwoods-shocking-report-israel-detains-palestinians-who-umm-riot-and-commit-acts-of-violence/

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=82&x_article=2002

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.israelifrontline.com/2011/03/btselem-photographer-stages-scene.html

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2007/12/lies-damn-lies-and-btselems-statistics.html

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0111/glick010711.php3?printer_friendly




tweakabelle -> RE: How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/21/2011 6:00:03 PM)

Willbur, you need to present INDEPENDENT evidence, not a series of links to Zionist propaganda sites to make a serious case.

Incidentally the only one of the sites you link that talks about the OP accepts the B'Tselem figures. Others sources claim that the B'Tselem figures are too low and that, during 2005-10, over 3,000 Palestinian children have been 'detained' be the Israeli Occupation Forces.*

I'm unaware of a single case of an Israeli child being detained for stone throwing, even though colonists (and their children) frequently attack Palestinians with stones, and much worse. Settler violence agaisnt Palestinians has increased by over 50% in the last year. For example this B'Tselem video captures a colonist shooting an unarmed Palestinian. Any one who watches the footage can judge for themselves whether it's staged or not.

I'm looking forward to seeing how you justify Palestinian children being imprisoned for acts that Israeli children cannot be charged over too. Or reasons why a situation where two different people living in the same land are subjected to 2 different legal regimes, solely on the basis of race doesn't justify the label 'apartheid'.





* http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/En/default.aspx?xyz=U6Qq7k%2bcOd87MDI46m9rUxJEpMO%2bi1s7OQ0ge8VkFsCHLg/3JLDab%2bI/mczOKQ1x8pW9TJrqzO27RSJuQRziuJPzJ5d%2bsP6LEyZJpixvrPzt/3fyXquEbOlYCBlDPbpsyXVhzdrDXMg%3d



ClassIsInSession -> RE: How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/21/2011 6:12:38 PM)

I wonder how the average American citizen would respond if a group of Sioux Nation native americans came to their home one morning and said, this was our land 1000 years ago, get out, it's our's now.

That to me is the root of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. And the irony of why the U.S. takes sides at all in the matter.

Were it not for European colonization, the Israelis would not even be there.

The oddity of it from an American standpoint is that we can have a mosque, church, synagogue, shrine...all on the same street. No one dies, no one fights, everyone worships and lives in relative peace.

I think it's awful when any child, regardless of nationality is victimized in the name of politics.



tweakabelle -> RE: How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/21/2011 6:22:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

I wonder how the average American citizen would respond if a group of Sioux Nation native americans came to their home one morning and said, this was our land 1000 years ago, get out, it's our's now.

That to me is the root of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. And the irony of why the U.S. takes sides at all in the matter.

Were it not for European colonization, the Israelis would not even be there.

The oddity of it from an American standpoint is that we can have a mosque, church, synagogue, shrine...all on the same street. No one dies, no one fights, everyone worships and lives in relative peace.

I think it's awful when any child, regardless of nationality is victimized in the name of politics.

Yes. Adults inflicting their problems on children is indefensible no matter who does it.

We should recognise that the brutalisation of children affects both sides. Israeli children growing up in an atmosphere of constant conflict are just as likely to be brutalised as Palestinian children, even if they are spared most of excesses of the Occupation. I don't really understand how any parent could choose to bring up their children in a war zone, but that's an option every settler/colonist parent chooses.



Aneirin -> RE: How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/21/2011 11:35:00 PM)

I am sort of thinking that when the last survivor of the holocaust passes on, then the world oppinion might change and Israel will be condemned for the rogue state it displaying it is, as I do wonder how much of the world apathy is to do with guilt over allowing the holocaust to happen.



Termyn8or -> RE: How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/22/2011 8:18:53 AM)

Hey, maybe the holocaust did some "manufacturing" as well. Think they all just let it slide ? I wouldn't.

T^T



willbeurdaddy -> RE: How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/22/2011 8:20:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Willbur, you need to present INDEPENDENT evidence, not a series of links to Zionist propaganda sites to make a serious case.

Incidentally the only one of the sites you link that talks about the OP accepts the B'Tselem figures. Others sources claim that the B'Tselem figures are too low and that, during 2005-10, over 3,000 Palestinian children have been 'detained' be the Israeli Occupation Forces.*

I'm unaware of a single case of an Israeli child being detained for stone throwing, even though colonists (and their children) frequently attack Palestinians with stones, and much worse. Settler violence agaisnt Palestinians has increased by over 50% in the last year. For example this B'Tselem video captures a colonist shooting an unarmed Palestinian. Any one who watches the footage can judge for themselves whether it's staged or not.

I'm looking forward to seeing how you justify Palestinian children being imprisoned for acts that Israeli children cannot be charged over too. Or reasons why a situation where two different people living in the same land are subjected to 2 different legal regimes, solely on the basis of race doesn't justify the label 'apartheid'.





* http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/En/default.aspx?xyz=U6Qq7k%2bcOd87MDI46m9rUxJEpMO%2bi1s7OQ0ge8VkFsCHLg/3JLDab%2bI/mczOKQ1x8pW9TJrqzO27RSJuQRziuJPzJ5d%2bsP6LEyZJpixvrPzt/3fyXquEbOlYCBlDPbpsyXVhzdrDXMg%3d


Where is your "independent evidence" that Betselem isnt a bunch of lying pieces of shit? You can look at the videos and see how absurdly staged they are. Ive got the independent evidence of my own eyes...evidence you dont have because youre wearing your bigoted glasses.



willbeurdaddy -> RE: How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/22/2011 8:22:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

I wonder how the average American citizen would respond if a group of Sioux Nation native americans came to their home one morning and said, this was our land 1000 years ago, get out, it's our's now.



An irrelevant comparison since there was no such thing as what today are "Palestinians" 1000 years ago...or even 50 years ago. Palestinians actually referred to Israelis before then. The Jordanian Arabs were insulted to be called Palestinian because it branded them as Jews.



Moonhead -> RE: How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/22/2011 9:45:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Hey, maybe the holocaust did some "manufacturing" as well. Think they all just let it slide ? I wouldn't.

T^T

Soap and lampshades, mostly.

I can't see America abandoning Israel so long as there's jewish voters there, whatever Aneirin says. Also, the passing of the last few holocaust survivors won't benefit anybody besides the holocaust deniers and associated white supremacist fuckwits.



VideoAdminTheta -> RE: How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/22/2011 12:30:25 PM)

Good day to you all. Strong opinions and passionate discussion are sure to occur in politics and there will always be someone that doesn't agree with a personal opinion, news media sources and the like. It is understandable that you will have lively discourse, but please keep in mind that strong emotions are not an excuse to ridicule or attack other members. Please consider responding to what another member posts and not attack the member, they are not the topic.



ashjor911 -> RE: How to manufacture 'terrorists' (7/22/2011 12:59:47 PM)

quote:

How to manufacture 'terrorists'
,

Someone, I know was in Detainee for a week, they let him go on thursday, he went home get a shower,
he went to friday`s (Demonstration), and he was arrested again on friday, & he did keep on going out there,



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