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Does reducing social security violate the US Constitution? - 7/20/2011 11:02:18 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		Section 4 of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution:

"The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned."



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RE: Does reducing social security violate the US Consti... - 7/20/2011 11:11:22 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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Status: offline 		No, the clause enables the payment of pensions to Union soldiers without similar compensation to the Confederate soldiers, and the general debt clause was actually intended to preempt paying Confederate war debts. It was not intended as an overall debt clause. The pension clause has nothing to do with Social Security or non-military pensions.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 7/20/2011 11:12:03 PM >

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RE: Does reducing social security violate the US Consti... - 7/20/2011 11:40:49 PM   
Real0ne


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Status: offline 		yeh the government can go 15trillion in debt with no fucking collateral.

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RE: Does reducing social security violate the US Consti... - 7/21/2011 4:30:40 AM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		While I assume that willbe is correct, I could envision the 14th amendment being stretched to include pensions of civil servants.  I can't see it applying to SS, though.

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RE: Does reducing social security violate the US Consti... - 7/21/2011 5:15:05 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

No, the clause enables the payment of pensions to Union soldiers without similar compensation to the Confederate soldiers, and the general debt clause was actually intended to preempt paying Confederate war debts. It was not intended as an overall debt clause. The pension clause has nothing to do with Social Security or non-military pensions.

Once again...not even a nice try. Amazing to actually suggest a constitutional amend. as the law of the land was so specifically narrow as union or confed. debts. What a hoot. BTW, what 'general debt clause ?'

You site nothing to back all of this up...it is merely your partisan opinion. One could just as easily submit that it means the opposite.

Besides, the question is mute. The federal courts have ruled the govt. could just keep it all and pay out nothing...NOTHING at all...no soc. sec., no medicare, no federal pensions, no military pensions.

Think about that one forumites. Once govt. takes your money...any money...they can keep it and spend it anyway they want.

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RE: Does reducing social security violate the US Consti... - 7/21/2011 5:17:06 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

yeh the government can go 15trillion in debt with no fucking collateral.

What is accurately described as sovereign debt by any country's govt., has never had any collateral other than the taxes upon that country to pay it.

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RE: Does reducing social security violate the US Consti... - 7/21/2011 6:50:49 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		What about inflation?

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RE: Does reducing social security violate the US Consti... - 7/21/2011 7:05:34 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

No, the clause enables the payment of pensions to Union soldiers without similar compensation to the Confederate soldiers, and the general debt clause was actually intended to preempt paying Confederate war debts. It was not intended as an overall debt clause. The pension clause has nothing to do with Social Security or non-military pensions.

Once again...not even a nice try. Amazing to actually suggest a constitutional amend. as the law of the land was so specifically narrow as union or confed. debts. What a hoot. BTW, what 'general debt clause ?'

You site nothing to back all of this up...it is merely your partisan opinion. One could just as easily submit that it means the opposite.

Besides, the question is mute. The federal courts have ruled the govt. could just keep it all and pay out nothing...NOTHING at all...no soc. sec., no medicare, no federal pensions, no military pensions.



Wow. Did you take stupid pills or what?

First of all, your last sentence is irrelevant, because weve already said that what youve named arent "debts". A total non sequiter.
Second, the word is MOOT, idiot.
Third, did you ever read a fucking thing about the Civil War and reparations? No back up? A fucking high school history student knows what the 14th says.

"The 14th Amendment was added after the Civil War. Many southern leaders considered it a double humiliation to have been defeated by the Yankees and then to have to pay taxes to repay the loans which were used to defeat them, and the 14th was intended to stop Southern states, once they had integrated back into the union, from using their political clout to make the U.S. default on its Civil War debt.

The framers of the 14th Amendment also wanted to address the related issue of Union soldiers’ military pensions, which were also a kind of war debt. The amendment made clear that the North would honor the legitimate war debts and pension obligations incurred to preserve the Union; however, they would not force the nation to honor the promises of the illegal Confederate governments, neither to foreign creditors nor to rebel soldiers."

http://blogs.forbes.com/jerrybowyer/2011/07/13/obama-and-his-slavish-14th-amendment-courtiers/

Or you can find the same thing on about 5000 other articles on the 14th.

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RE: Does reducing social security violate the US Consti... - 7/21/2011 7:23:13 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Does reducing social security violate the US Constitution?


Congress created it; Congress can change it.

How the voters react is another matter.

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RE: Does reducing social security violate the US Consti... - 7/21/2011 7:26:07 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Does reducing social security violate the US Constitution?


Congress created it; Congress can change it.

How the voters react is another matter.


In fact there is a better argument that the creation of SS violated the Constitution than there is that reducing or eliminating it does.

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RE: Does reducing social security violate the US Consti... - 7/21/2011 7:30:38 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Uh-huh.

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RE: Does reducing social security violate the US Consti... - 7/21/2011 7:34:30 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Wow. Did you take stupid pills or what?

First of all, your last sentence is irrelevant, because weve already said that what youve named arent "debts". A total non sequiter.
Second, the word is MOOT, idiot.


The word is non sequitur, wilbur. (make of your name what you will)

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RE: Does reducing social security violate the US Consti... - 7/21/2011 7:37:50 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"In fact there is a better argument that the creation of SS violated the Constitution than there is that reducing or eliminating it does."

Alert the media ! I agree.

T^T

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RE: Does reducing social security violate the US Consti... - 7/21/2011 7:41:02 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		So what's the argument?

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RE: Does reducing social security violate the US Consti... - 7/21/2011 7:44:40 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Does reducing social security violate the US Constitution?


Congress created it; Congress can change it.

How the voters react is another matter.


In fact there is a better argument that the creation of SS violated the Constitution than there is that reducing or eliminating it does.

Funny how SCOTUS settled it in 1937 (very thoroughly in 3 seprate cases). Why is it that so called conservatives never accept settled law when it doesn't fit their beliefs?

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RE: Does reducing social security violate the US Consti... - 7/21/2011 8:12:38 AM   
Musicmystery


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< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/21/2011 8:13:34 AM >

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RE: Does reducing social security violate the US Consti... - 7/21/2011 9:10:11 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Does reducing social security violate the US Constitution?


Congress created it; Congress can change it.

How the voters react is another matter.


In fact there is a better argument that the creation of SS violated the Constitution than there is that reducing or eliminating it does.

Funny how SCOTUS settled it in 1937 (very thoroughly in 3 seprate cases). Why is it that so called conservatives never accept settled law when it doesn't fit their beliefs?


Funny how your reading comprehension doesnt enable you to understand the word "better".

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RE: Does reducing social security violate the US Consti... - 7/21/2011 9:13:40 AM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		There is in fact a worse one.  Since you have (among other things) demonstrated fully your lack of constitutional scholarship, perhaps you could give us that 'better' arguement, that seems that nobody has successfully made before the SCOTUS, esquire.   

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RE: Does reducing social security violate the US Consti... - 7/21/2011 5:25:04 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I'd say no. It's more a political thing than a constitutional thing. If you're a congressman or senator and you vote to cut social security you surely must know that you'll be cleaning out your desk at the end of your term and that you'll be a civilian reaping scorn for the rest of your life from your former constituents.
Not a good political move.
I believe they call that, "political suicide."

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