RE: There goes the neighbourhood

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Termyn8or -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/22/2011 11:26:35 PM)
That you don't grasp the criminal mind ? T^T

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/23/2011 6:12:17 AM)
Having thought about it RF, I think it's actually scarier that this attack was from within. This is probably going to come out wrong, I'm tired, but somehow we don't really expect to be attacked by someone in our own society. It's one thing to be attacked by someone from a different background, culture, whatever. It's more alarming, harder to see it coming, when it comes from within. Somehow, when it happens from within we don't see it coming as much as we do an attack from outside because it isn't supposed to happen. Which leads me back to your point about how conditioned we've become to looking for threats from outside our own society. I recently read a book called 19 Minutes. It's about a boy who, tormented and bullied his whole life, goes into his High School and shoots those who tormented him most and the subsequent trial. It's really well written and gives a peek into the mind of someone who finally snaps. No it's not at all the same thing I know that, but like this incident it really made me reflect about something horrifying and what makes someone take that final step into action. Zeph

LadyConstanze -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/23/2011 6:15:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad ~fr~ This just in... Eyewitness accounts from the island indicate the apprehended shooter may have been coordinating over radio with as-of-yet unknown parties to the attack. It seems plausible that there was more than one shooter, and that any other shooters are still at large. Alternately, that the shooter was coordinating with coconspirators that were not present on the island. In either case, more bombings or shootings might be plausible, though it would be more difficult to carry them out now that the entire police force is in the streets and armed to the teeth. Eyewitness accounts under duress are notoriously unreliable, and teenagers going from living in the "safest country in the world" to holding their friends' guts in after a massacre will doubtless be even less reliable. It does have a troubling degree of plausibility to it, though. Health, al-Aswad. Aswad, It would stand to reason that this was not a "one man" attack, considering the resources needed to get explosives, get into the buildings, put them into place, etc., then travel, get the police uniform, etc. it would be reasonable to assume that he had help in planning and executing the horrendous attacks. quote: A lot can happen in that time. If what happens does not include actual, effective and convincing rehabilitation, he will have a fatal accident upon his release. If it does include such a degree of rehabilitation, there is no gain in continued incarceration, whereas as a citizen, he can contribute taxes. Also, assuming rehabilitation does occur, the weight of what he has done will undoubtedly drive him to either suicide or active attempts at contributing additionally to society. Finally, it is obvious that if he is ever released, he will be subject to quite rigorous surveillance, which will be useful in itself, if he tries to make contact with problematic organizations, as that exposes them to the same thing, effectively. It's a win-win, if everyone does their job. Vengeance doesn't bring anyone back, and you can't kill him 90+ times, anyway. That said, odds are he will either meet with an 'unfortunate' accident, or the pointy end of a shiv. And, quite frankly, I wouldn't want the legal system to change on account of his actions. When the response to terrorism is predictable, terrorists become successful. That goes for domestic terrorism as well. Can't say I ever agreed with anything more than what you said here, just that such a tragedy had to happen is nuts. I was on the phone to a friend who moved back to Norway, he pretty much said the same as you did, he's in Oslo and said the atmosphere can be described as SSS (shocked, stunned, scared) - which is not surprising.

Edwynn -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/23/2011 6:49:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad The media gets a paycheck from tugging at you emotionally. Hearing from the 15 year old girl hiding under where the guy was standing as he shot her friends isn't exactly the kind of reporting that appeals to the intellect. Perfect. Don't forget the part about one friend running to the aid of another who was him/herself shot down in the process. And if we're reading it on the internet, those classy adverts to the right about how some mom figured out how to make $6,700 a month in her spare time, and another advert displaying some woman peeling the skin off of her face in promoting something of which I cannot bring myself to find whatever it's about, all thanks to some sort of 'auto-advert' software triggered by "15 year old girl" in the news article. And yes, as far as 'appealing to the intellect,' incidents such as this invariably bring the mental maggots out of the woodwork, unfortunately many of them holding seats in a congress or parliament.

LadyPact -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/23/2011 9:58:24 AM)
Such a terrible tragedy. My condolences to the families who have lost loved ones and to the entire nation.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/23/2011 10:14:22 AM)
I really can't wrap my head around this sort of thing. That's the point of terrorism, I suppose, to confuse us. What gain can there be, in this kind of massacre?

LadyConstanze -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/23/2011 10:44:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus I really can't wrap my head around this sort of thing. That's the point of terrorism, I suppose, to confuse us. What gain can there be, in this kind of massacre? I think you have to be fucking insane to go out and want to kill others in the first place... So I am not sure it is about "gain"

Aswad -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/23/2011 11:46:52 AM)
15:28 GMT So far, 91 dead, no figures on injured. The reactions are as expected. We will lose civil liberties. We will see more surveillance. We will see more censorship. We will continue to see stinger operations by the media to ridicule those who have opinions outside the political mainstream, while the status quo is left inviolable. We will see the political line that lead to this event continue. We will see knee-jerk reactions, theatre, political profiteering (one of the kids from the island has already started spinning this to profit off it) and so forth. It is the greatest windfall the present, unpopular regime could ever hope for, at a critical time when they would have been ousted permanently. And we will see more right-wing activities. And the pressure will be on for those who have it in them to do this sort of thing again. This act of domestic terrorism was a resounding success for the terrorist. And probably also for the right-wing political party he used to be affiliated with. Some here have expressed disbelief or a failure to understand how this could happen. Nobody understands why it happened. Or so the media would have us and the world believe. But anyone who doesn't understand why this happened, either doesn't understand the political situation, or doesn't understand people. And that is dangerous. The USA is arriving at the very same juncture at a rapid pace. Note that the terrorist was a vocal proponent of establishing a Norwegian branch of the Tea Party movement, for instance. If the people around the world want to avoid having a similar tragedy happen in their own countries, the best course of action is not to respond emotionally, but to take the time to stop and listen. And read. And ponder. Until you understand, despite how understanding makes it worse to bear, how and why this happened. I'm not defending his actions. Indeed, I will suffer for them. But all those lives will be lost for nothing if we do not learn something. The few media that did not censor the reader comments on their coverage, evidence the existence of many who not only get what this guy was about, but in many cases express sympathies with his actions. Of course, most condemn the choice of targets: what the terrorist calls Stoltenberg-jugend. Stoltenberg is the Prime Minister and head of the Labor Party, whose youth organization was the target of the shootings. In an earlier post in this thread, someone used this very term in reply to my description of the targets and why they were gathered on the island. That is independent verification that the perception of the attacker of these children as targets is understandable, if we suspend disbelief to pretend to accept the premise of a war on the Labor Party and the politics they have enacted, the culture and climate constructed in the media, and general streamlining of the nation into a singular doctrine. Many, like me, express that this was inevitable, and that their only surprise is that people didn't see it coming. Politicians, however, demonstrate their complete ignorance of the grass root state of the country. Much like in the USA, some people are angry. People with real grievances and no answers. They present government has, over many years, established a system where no dissenting voices can be heard, and dissidents are isolated and forced to silently ruminate on the "rotting from inside". Termyn8or used similar words about the USA, and a lot of Tea Party rhetoric follows the exact same lines. The system that has been established creates disillusionment and plays the divide and conquer card heavily. Many turn to the far right wing, who use the jihadist movement as an important recruiting tool, just as jihadists use the western crusade on the Middle East as an important recruiting tool. The irony of this reciprocal parasitism shouldn't be lost on anyone. A revolution would be a fact, except they've managed to close that door, as well, through culture and political climate and media control. What is left to these people, is to (a) leave one's own country, despite patriotism, (b) grin and bear the unbearable, or (c) wage kamikaze warfare against the current and future members of the present government. And the pressure is being turned up all the time. With plenty of frustration, no way out, no future, no outlet and no answers, it is easy to rationalize one's way through a downward spiral of coherent thoughts that lead to horrible conclusions. It seems inconceivable to kill children in cold blood, but every day, this happens. The decisions are made in our own nations, and by democratic extension, in our own homes. There's nothing right about what this man did. But if we cannot see why he did it, we will live to see it happen again. And I, for one, do not want to see bodies floating near some paradise resort in the USA or the UK. Health, al-Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/23/2011 11:55:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze I think you have to be fucking insane to go out and want to kill others in the first place... So I am not sure it is about "gain" By the fact that he used ear plugs to block out the screaming, I suspect he didn't want to kill, so much as felt he had to kill. Most horrible acts are done by people who are rational inside their own frame of reference. That seems to have been the case here. Health, al-Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/23/2011 12:08:34 PM)
Hate to reply to myself, but I see I have understated the semi-alternative theory (though I commented about it to Ron), and feel I should comment on that, since there is no official statement on the motives. I stand by the analysis of the "how" as accurate, but there is a second "why" that is also plausible, and which is equally important to grasp, given the political climate. Think along the lines of Helter Skelter. Of what would happen if this guy, with known far right extremist views, had gotten away. Prior to the bomb, threats had been made by a mullah in Norway, believed to be connected to Ansar al-Islam, and directed at key members of the parliament. When the bomb went off, experts and officials immediately proclaimed that jihadist organizations were the likely culprits. And, as such groups so often do, one of them claimed responsibility. It gives them credibility to be blamed for any successful attacks, and credibility is important to terrorist groups. Then comes the bait and switch. Teenagers killed at an island paradise. Not something they would want to be blamed for, because the emotional backlash is more than most of them can chew. But they would be stuck with it. Even if none had tried to claim responsibility, jihadists in general would be blamed. In the current political climate, with rampant islamophobia, such a thing would add fuel to the fire. The effects would have been devastating for innocent muslims throughout the country. Potentially, it could've had serious effects worldwide. For islamophobes, that's "gain". [8\|] Health, al-Aswad.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/23/2011 12:16:50 PM)
quote: By the fact that he used ear plugs to block out the screaming, I suspect he didn't want to kill, so much as felt he had to kill. Stupid question, was he blocking out the screams or protecting his hearing? Zeph

Aswad -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/23/2011 1:11:10 PM)
You know, I hadn't considered that. Either or both is quite possible. Thanks. Food for thought. Health, al-Aswad.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/23/2011 1:16:48 PM)
And right back at you, I hadn't considered that maybe he was blocking out the screams. Food for thought indeed! Zeph

mnottertail -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/23/2011 1:22:56 PM)
Look how far we've come, when I visited Norway some 30+ years ago, you could walk right up to the palace door, have a knock, and possibly talk to Koeng (I dont have a spare umlauf, yes I know you gave me one al-Aswad, but.....) Olav.

mnottertail -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/23/2011 1:27:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad You know, I hadn't considered that. Either or both is quite possible. Thanks. Food for thought. Health, al-Aswad. Or to dampen the distraction. What sort of hearing protection was he wearing, because they have hearing protectors with passive discrimination so that loud noises like shots and screams are muffled but normal noises and quiet ones are not.

Termyn8or -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/23/2011 2:14:19 PM)
Aswad, I know you think I am kind of off the wall, and thinking about it maybe I am. That depends on the wall. But I would like for you to know from where I speak. That you don't understand the criminal mind does not surprise me, from what I've heard there is a very low crime rate where you live. You see geography was never my subject, but as time goes on that changes. The reason is that I am simply sick of the US, really. When I was young, at least we thought we had liberty. Things were very different. Although the US did some meddling in the affairs of other countries, it was nothing like today. In fact they didn't meddle in people's private affairs either. Most people had guns. There were no laws in most places and not long before I was born kids could take a rifle or something to school, although it was not acceptable to bring ammunition. People had guns in their pockets, just another thing you need, as they saw it. Your keys, wallet, gun, a hankerchief and so forth. People didn't shoot each other over parking spaces or a traffic jam, they were adults. With all the guns around, there weren't that many shootings. But the mindset has changed. People are immature now, and I think it shows in government as well. In the old days, enough was enough, enough money, cars, all that. Now true greed has taken hold. Like kids in a candy store - LITERALLY. And it shows in government. Now we have to meddle in affairs that are none of our business just to get by. And they want it all. The world is like a toy store. Although the concept of keeping up with the Jones' has been around for a long time, it has never been embodied in a people so deeply as it is today among our populace. This makes it dangerous for the average citizen to have the power of life and death. In fact our government goes out of it's way to make sure that even other sovereign nations lack the power of life and death if you look at things objectively. Am I wrong here ? I have no idea how badly your major news media outlets are screwed up there, but I doubt it's worse than here. And that as well as the ubiquitous greed is what fuels this empire building scheme. I also firmly believe that we will eventually go the way of the Romans, who if they weren't stetched so thin could have easily defended themselves agianst any foe, and/or solved almost any problem. But greed and hubris got to them, and it is right here, happening right now. When GWB ran the second time, I was against him. Not personally so much, but in my view to reelect him was to put the stamp of approval on his ways, which would tell enemies and friends alike that we support this shit. To hell you say, they said, to let the opinion of the world affect our judgement in any way. No way. And that was the attitude. I was here. It's not any one President's fault, it is the way of this country. Some believe that we need to deal from strength, and I agree, but dammit we can't even secure our own borders. Yet we seem to have no problem doing it halfway across the world. People are getting tired of it. It may surprise you to know that approximately half of the people here have a criminal mentality. This is one of those things that doesn't make it to CNN or the BBC. We have become a nation of takers, and if you were a takee, you would not be pleased about it would you ? You see this nation is young and we are still engaged in the class war. In many other countries the classes seem to have made peace. The bourgeoisie has learned of their codependence with the proletariat. Not so here. We make war, but the People don't see any profit. We sell out, and again the People see no profit. One exception is Alaska, every Citizen of Alaska gets a check, but that does not come from the government, it comes from private sources. In some other countries, natural resources bolster the tax base and/or are remitted to the People. Why not here ? It's simple to see; They don't want to pay. Nobody knows how many barrells of oil were pumped out of Iraq before they remembered to install the metering devices. They had pictures of Saddam's wealth, gold, US currency and whatever. Just where did that go ? If your leader is a theif, what are you ? So in this quest for immeasurable wealth, these people have not only endangered us, but any and all allies we may have in the world. This is not what we wanted, even the nastiest of us. Only the ignorant. Orwell wrote that ignorance is bliss, and I see alot of blissful people here. Do anything to get a check from the government or anyone. Do anything to get as much as possible. The only thing of which I am not sure is if the people followed the government or vice versa. Like the chicken and egg dilemma. To straighten this out, I ask this : What did Norway ever do to anyone ? I didn't notice you invading other countries, installing puppet governments or bombing anyone. Why would they attack you ? How many guesses do you want ? (and don't think an internal foe is any different than an external foe) Maybe I am off my rocker, but maybe I don't want to sit and rock all day like a fucking baby. This shit is wrong, and over the years I have started to figure out why. Put Granny in the rocker. I am fifty now and it is my day. I was sick as hell last year but my strength is coming back, as such I will buck the system. I will fight. I would kill for my country, but not for the government nor the ignorant masses. I cherish worthwhile life. The rest is weeds. Harsh ? Consider the situation here. T^T

Aswad -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/23/2011 5:37:25 PM)
Termyn8or, Like others, I've tried to explain that your posts haven't been on-topic, or appropriate. To be as polite as I can be, I will offer to read your post, and maybe reply, if you condense it and structure it. But I can't take more than about 10-20 lines of your usual style right now, and I would appreciate it if you would be so kind as to respect that. Health, al-Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/23/2011 5:47:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Look how far we've come, when I visited Norway some 30+ years ago, you could walk right up to the palace door, have a knock, and possibly talk to Koeng (I dont have a spare umlauf, yes I know you gave me one al-Aswad, but.....) Olav. You still can, Ron, except right now he's visiting the bereaved and the survivors. I would expect to get patted down, though. Health, al-Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/23/2011 6:15:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Or to dampen the distraction. What sort of hearing protection was he wearing, because they have hearing protectors with passive discrimination so that loud noises like shots and screams are muffled but normal noises and quiet ones are not. From the images, they're regular -26dB reusable closed-cell foam plugs. I use the exact same brand when I need some peace and quiet. In the police interview, he supports my original assumption, in stating that he hated doing this, but believed it was a neccessary act to pursue his long term plans. Those have been laid out in a 1500-page book that he's written over the course of some 12 years. It's not exactly the sort of thing that makes people sleep any better at night, the contents laid out in that book. We're talking a timeline up to a circa 2083 endpoint for his envisioned nationalist campaign of terror. I can virtually see the faces of his followers, right arms raised in salute. From how people are reacting on this board and at home, I think the guy has a real chance at reaching his goals. Seems someone finally brought intelligence into the game. Have another look at his face. Consider that people of all cultures have worked with him, and enjoyed his company, and found him to be a charismatic, friendly and solid guy. Add 14 to 21 years in jail for history to prove him right in the eyes of the right wing, by way of how the mainstream culture and politics will respond to what he has done. Allow for malcontent to grow in that time, and for businesses to take away even more of the common man's paycheck in the USA. Then picture the people who want Palin and her ilk, those same years down the road. Hold up this mental image on one side. Compare it to an image of Weimar Germany, circa 1920'ish. If it looks as grim to you as it does to me, then consider: you don't need Wehrner von Braun anymore... you just need Wikipedia. This could've all gone down in a civilized manner, but no... ... we were too busy "never again"'ing. Health, al-Aswad. [sm=banghead.gif]

popeye1250 -> RE: There goes the neighbourhood (7/23/2011 7:12:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad ~fr~ Status as per midnight (GMT), since Zephyr asked. Oslo city: 7 confirmed fatalities, 10 confirmed critical injuries, some missing or unaccounted for. Oklahoma deja vu. Utøya island: 10 confirmed fatalities, 12 confirmed critical injuries, several missing or unaccounted for. Mostly or exclusively teenagers. Bodies are a bit scattered about the island and waterfront, and the final counts will not be in until the divers are done. Weapons and perp secured, along with an undetonated bomb. Locals have rescued most of the kids that tried to swim off the island (pretty difficult, and the water is cold), and the injured among those do not count toward the statistics, which are totals from the official effort only. At least one appears to have drowned (it's a long swim in icy waters). Bomb squads are combing the city and the island for additional devices. The incident is now assumed to be domestic. Casualty figures are expected to rise. I'm obviously a bit miffed about the guy hunting kids at summer camp with an auto. It is, in fact, upsetting my calm. Which tells me this is going to get ugly. Hopefully, the fact that it was a domestic matter will limit the long term cultural, political and judicial damages, but there is no getting around that this changes the alignment of potential constellations for the upcoming election in favor of (ironically, as the perp is reported to have neo-nazi affiliations) the far right political wing at what was already a critical point in our political history. Anyway, it'll take some time for the details to be clear, so I guess the news are over and the entertainment begins tomorrow (got to love capitalism). As a final point, the hospital where the wounded are being treated has been essentially locked down by police guards, with patients moved to another one so the trauma ward staff can use all the operating rooms. So far, at least a couple hundred units of O-neg and A-neg have been shipped from other hospitals, and the staff there has their hands full. It's not often we see this kind of injury in our hospitals. As the doctors and nurses there are ultimately the ones charged with saving lives in the midst of the turmoil, with the majority of their injured of an age that often makes it harder to "leave the workplace behind at the end of the day", it is appropriate, I think, to mention their efforts. While it is the victims and the bereaved that command the most empathy in such an event, and with other personell involved certainly doing an important job in a difficult time, I would simply like to remind myself and others that there are silent heroes of which we hear far less, but whose efforts are deserving of respect and honorable mention nonetheless. Health, al-Aswad. Aswad, yes and all the Police, Fire and Rescue workers as well! I can't imagine what all of them are going through.

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