RE: Financial Reality

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tj444 -> RE: Financial Reality (7/24/2011 4:08:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail There are some pluses to it, but the propensity for governmental obfuscation could make it unworkable and many many things would be rough budgeting, i.e: How many people are going to come on to soc sec this year, when and what are their individual moneys going to be? well, the way it is now doesnt seem to be working very well. I especially like how some things the govt pays for are like several times what the actual retail price is... [8\|]

mnottertail -> RE: Financial Reality (7/24/2011 4:10:19 PM)
Capitalism, and lack of oversight (we really ain't that big, in terms of doers). The really big cons come in time of war. That is where there is a vast panorama for fleecing the government.

tj444 -> RE: Financial Reality (7/24/2011 4:13:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Capitalism, and lack of oversight (we really ain't that big, in terms of doers). The really big cons come in time of war. That is where there is a vast panorama for fleecing the government. war and in medical care. Those 2 are huge expenditures. Perhaps the govt should turn all purchasing over to IKEA and give them a % of the $$$$ saved... [:D]

farglebargle -> RE: Financial Reality (7/24/2011 4:26:37 PM)
War and Medical Care. Simple. Disband the War Department. Single Payer, Universal Medicare. No more health insurance companies fucking up service delivery and driving up costs.

defiantbadgirl -> RE: Financial Reality (7/24/2011 4:49:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery My own personal take? Cut defense. Raise SS ages to 64/67/70. Medicaid is not so simple--but needs overhaul/reform (raising retirement age will help some automatically, as some people will still be insured at work). Eliminate the SS tax break and add an extra half a percent. Eliminate all Bush tax cuts, all levels. Institute a national VAT. And understand this is definitely NOT going to help the economy in the short run! We may have different definitions for the word CUT. To me, a CUT in social security means decreasing the amount retirees receive. Raising the retirement age is a bad idea. Too many businesses are getting rid of and refusing to hire older workers. Raising the contribution cut off is a much better plan. I know I keep repeating myself about creating more homeless and innocents dying slow painful deaths while murderers get painless lethal injections, but cuts to Medicare and Medicaid will cause this to happen. Such barbarity should never be considered an option. Single-payer health care is the only humane option. I agree with eliminating tax breaks for the wealthy. I agree with ending the Bush tax cuts, but not on all levels. Minimum wage workers can't afford to pay taxes and the earned income credit they receive is often needed to repair or replace their only means of transportation. People who are forced to work out of town because there are no jobs in town can't take the bus. I definitely agree with cutting military spending.

lockedaway -> RE: frustrated with President Obama (7/24/2011 4:49:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: erieangel quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Someone somewhere gave an analogy that it's like you and your Republican friends all phone up and order some pizza. The delivery guy comes to the door, you get everyone together to pitch in for the pizza you all agreed on to buy, and the Republican friends now refuse to pay for the food they ordered previously. There is joke in which somebody gives a plate of 12 cookies to a rich guy, a lobbyist and a liberal. The rich guy takes 11 cookies then tells the lobbyist to watch out because the liberal is trying to take his cookie. Stupid analogy, Erie. It is an analogy meant to assuage losers who think they are being stolen from. I gave the appropriate analogy just the other day in another thread; Erie, Locked, Fargle, FirmHand are sharing a cab from Newark, NJ to JFK airport. The taxi ride is $100.00. I get out and give the cabbie $25.00 towards my share of the fare plus 1/4 of the tip. Erie, Fargle and Firm all do the same. That is how it would work in real life, right? Of course it is. And no one would expect any different. The reason why it works in real life and why it works for conservatives is because it is undeniably fair. What we expect from ourselves is what we expect from others. The reason why it works for liberals in real life....in the cab....is because none of them would have the gall (or the balls) to say "Hey, you make more than me and so you should pay more." Nope...they wouldn't say it to the other riders in the cab but they will bitch to their state representative and congressperson. In the comfort and safety of their living room with their telephone or computer, they will bitch and whine all day long for a handout which THEY KNOW they are not entitled to.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: frustrated with President Obama (7/24/2011 4:58:56 PM)
~FR~ The Feds should just corner the "weed" market via law. The money from the sale of it via medical use, the oil and fiber could go a long way to paying for many things. Half serious there, but there are some good points that do need to be addressed, and now!: 1) The government has not proven responsible with the money they have been spending, so giving them more will just produce more in waste and pork. 2) New revenue does need to come in, but it needs to come in and stabilize things first, and then promote growth. There is a huge shrinking middle class, and some of the top heavy stuff needs to be pushed downward. (I know that will get me labeled a leftist). The corporate sector is another place to draw that revenue from. 3) Corporate loopholes need to be closed for those industries that are now showing huge profits. Those incentives were there to help them once, and now it is time to give back. 4) Reduction in defense spending is a must. With us having money problems, we have no choice but to start reducing it. Time to rethink a plan that starts at our borders and prioritize our strategic positions. 5) SS and Medicare are dedicated taxes, and if anything they need to be increased, not anything cut. 6) A Balanced budget, plus forced plan to reduce the loans absolutely necessary. Everyone is going to have to give somewhere, to have a better tomorrow, and that is no cliche, just a hard, cold fact.

philosophy -> RE: frustrated with President Obama (7/24/2011 5:04:37 PM)
FR Cut all discretionary spending. All that does is slow the rate of the deficits growth. Raise taxes. Can't for ideological reasons. After all, the people that cried the loudest, "We've all got to make sacrifices" when it's union wages we're looking at, draw a line at the most well off. They must not make a sacrifice. That's ideology. Cut mandatory spending. Who will that hurt most? The rich? Nope. The middle class? Well, it'd hurt them. The poorest in society? Yup, they'd be the ones to pay the most. When all your income goes on necessities, any cut goes to the bone.

BitaTruble -> RE: frustrated with President Obama (7/24/2011 5:14:19 PM)
fr House members made around $197 per hour in 2010. It is not at all hard to figure out where the first cuts should be made.

snappykappy -> RE: frustrated with President Obama (7/24/2011 5:24:45 PM)
bita how did you come up with that number or where did you find it

Musicmystery -> RE: Financial Reality (7/24/2011 5:38:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl I agree that Social Security doesn't contribute to the deficit. I'm curious about MM's ideas on what specific areas should be cut. I'm just pointing out that people who say we can do one or the other (taxes or spending) aren't being realistic. For example, if you want to keep everything and raise taxes, you'd have to more than double the current income tax to cover the deficit alone, still not touching the debt. My own personal take? Cut defense. Raise SS ages to 64/67/70. Medicaid is not so simple--but needs overhaul/reform (raising retirement age will help some automatically, as some people will still be insured at work). Eliminate the SS tax break and add an extra half a percent. Eliminate all Bush tax cuts, all levels. Institute a national VAT. And understand this is definitely NOT going to help the economy in the short run! This course of action may well be defensible and work to some extent ... however, it simply masks the symptoms. It does not cure the disease. Firm Really. How so.

Musicmystery -> RE: Financial Reality (7/24/2011 5:41:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery My own personal take? Cut defense. Raise SS ages to 64/67/70. Medicaid is not so simple--but needs overhaul/reform (raising retirement age will help some automatically, as some people will still be insured at work). Eliminate the SS tax break and add an extra half a percent. Eliminate all Bush tax cuts, all levels. Institute a national VAT. And understand this is definitely NOT going to help the economy in the short run! We may have different definitions for the word CUT. To me, a CUT in social security means decreasing the amount retirees receive. Raising the retirement age is a bad idea. Too many businesses are getting rid of and refusing to hire older workers. Raising the contribution cut off is a much better plan. I know I keep repeating myself about creating more homeless and innocents dying slow painful deaths while murderers get painless lethal injections, but cuts to Medicare and Medicaid will cause this to happen. Such barbarity should never be considered an option. Single-payer health care is the only humane option. I agree with eliminating tax breaks for the wealthy. I agree with ending the Bush tax cuts, but not on all levels. Minimum wage workers can't afford to pay taxes and the earned income credit they receive is often needed to repair or replace their only means of transportation. People who are forced to work out of town because there are no jobs in town can't take the bus. I definitely agree with cutting military spending. Then you are going to continue with yearly deficits and continually grow the national debt.

Musicmystery -> RE: Financial Reality (7/24/2011 5:42:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle War and Medical Care. Simple. Disband the War Department. Single Payer, Universal Medicare. No more health insurance companies fucking up service delivery and driving up costs. Still leaves you over $425 billion short.

Musicmystery -> RE: Financial Reality (7/24/2011 5:43:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl I agree that Social Security doesn't contribute to the deficit. I'm curious about MM's ideas on what specific areas should be cut. I'm just pointing out that people who say we can do one or the other (taxes or spending) aren't being realistic. For example, if you want to keep everything and raise taxes, you'd have to more than double the current income tax to cover the deficit alone, still not touching the debt. My own personal take? Cut defense. Raise SS ages to 64/67/70. Medicaid is not so simple--but needs overhaul/reform (raising retirement age will help some automatically, as some people will still be insured at work). Eliminate the SS tax break and add an extra half a percent. Eliminate all Bush tax cuts, all levels. Institute a national VAT. And understand this is definitely NOT going to help the economy in the short run! Why do you want to raise the SS age threshholds, and not the contribution cutoff? Why should it be at $108K (or whatever it is now)? Why have a cutoff at all? Why would those be mutually exclusive?

tj444 -> RE: Financial Reality (7/24/2011 5:43:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Then you are going to continue with yearly deficits and continually grow the national debt. yup, thats pretty much how i see it going... [8\|]

BitaTruble -> RE: frustrated with President Obama (7/24/2011 5:44:04 PM)
The numbers came from the Office of the (Congressional) Clerk. I had to do the math myself. Average salary = $174,000 Number of hours worked = 879 for fiscal 2010 I was generous though. Some members of the House actually make more than $174,000 per year so the rate per hour would be somewhat but not substantially higher. You can also get these numbers from the CBO or go out to thecapitol.net and they have a cool little chart on there which jives exactly with the numbers from the CBO which, I believe got its numbers from the Office of the Clerk. thecapitol.net

Musicmystery -> RE: Financial Reality (7/24/2011 5:47:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: How much would we save if we completely pulled out of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen and NATO completely? About $600 billion. Less than half the deficit (but about half). OK. So where does the $1.27 trillion shortfall come from? Or do we keep adding it to the $14 trillion debt each year? I'm not saying we don't have a debt problem. I'm asking where we put all the homeless people cuts to benefits in the big three will create. I'm asking what you think about innocent people dying slow painful deaths from chronic illness while death row inmates get painless lethal injection. 1. Social Security benefits shouldn't be cut. They don't contribute to the debt because they're obtained through payroll taxes. 2. Pull out of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen and NATO and save that $600 billion. 3. Don't cut benefits to Medicare and Medicaid. Replace both programs with single-payer health care. First, don't cram "you don't care about all this people" stuff down my throat. Fuck you. You've no idea about my positions there, and no right to assume them. I'm talking purely numbers here for the moment. What isn't cut has to be paid for. On your #1--that's true, but guess who owes that money...also the American taxpayers. Hence the problem. On #3--that's still a expense.

Musicmystery -> RE: Financial Reality (7/24/2011 5:49:17 PM)
quote: Maybe it is time to reconsider the idea of discretionary and mandatory spending. How do you figure on doing that? Enter no agreements whatsoever? First, we'll have to stop owing debt.....

Musicmystery -> RE: Financial Reality (7/24/2011 5:51:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster MM, where is the link to the graphic in post #81? I can't seem to find it. To find any link in any post, click "quote," and you'll see the link, not the graphic, in the pop-up window. The original one is from the Washington Post. It's too large, so I used screen shots others posted elsewhere.

snappykappy -> RE: Financial Reality (7/24/2011 5:54:51 PM)
bita but then they get a bunch of freebies and things they never have to put into and pay like the common folk so just quick in my mind it is a lot more as well as the kick backs from all sorts of things like their campaign donations they recieve and trips etc

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