RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver

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gungadin09 -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/26/2011 9:50:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn Just when I was about to say; "Cobb County, that explains it all. Put a black person in front of a Cobb County jury; conviction guaranteed." Had any of this transpired in DeKalb, certainly, or even likely if happened in Fulton or Clayton Counties, then we'd never have heard of this idiocy. But if Cobb or Gwinnett ... And you locals know this, don't pretend any different. But then I saw the incomprehensible horse crap above ... ("three years seems appropriate") My apologies, Cobb County; apparently sickos like this exist many miles away, also. (as if we didn't know this already, but just to start out with the Hollywood version here ... ) The mother was not thinking clearly, she made a mistake not unlike many mistakes made by parents everyday, in this one instance resulting in a death, but otherwise just another dumb move, made by thousands everyday, somehow escaping intact. As Kaliko pointed out in post #7, criminal charges should only be brought forth in cases of criminal intent. This woman should have gotten a ticket and the heaviest fine allowable because of the unfortunate consequence, but actual jail time is just absurd.I can understand Kaloko's discomfort here at all this judgementalism. The majority of the posts here would make any parent feel like there's a spy cam on them at all times, or if not, there should be. By this "standard," my mother should have served at least 20 life sentences for; going through nine pregnancies to have eight kids (were it up to me, I would have locked her up after the second one and let her out a year later if she promised to stop there, and yes, that means no me), three of them being born with significant disabilities, not being precisely on the spot when one or several of those kids found their way into harmful or life threatening situations, etc. When I was 4-5 yrs old, I accidentally kicked off the parking brake in the car at the top of a steep driveway. The open driver's door caught on my friend's bicycle foot peddle, and car and bike scraped loudly against the brick carport wall back for 2 feet before all came to a stop and disaster avoided. Being that so many here insist on crucifying for parental mistakes, the other side of the bargain is that my 5 yr. old friend (at the time) deserves beatification and soon following known as "St. Theresa" for this same 5 yr. old thoughtlessly tossing her bike aside earlier in the day in just the right spot. And yes, that is EXACTLY how freaking utterly stupid this whole thread is. Oh my goodness. If the state were to file charges only in cases of CRIMINAL INTENT, where would that leave all the drunk drivers and baby shakers of this world? i'm sure none of them INTENDED to hurt anyone, but they did. And the reason that they did is because they made the decision to act irresponsibly, and that was a conscious decision. In other words, they INTENDED to act irresponsibly, and disregard the possible consequences of their actions. And then, when those consequences come home to roost, when somebody actually gets hurt because of their stupid decision, they try to absolve themselves of all responsibility by saying, well i didn't mean to. Well, sometimes that's just not good enough. Look, i feel sorry for her. i just don't feel NEARLY as sorry for her as i do for her kid who's not going to have a chance to grow up now as the result of her bad judgement. What kind of fool jaywalks with kids, at night? It wasn't a true "accident", she understood the danger and did it anyway. Her "one dumb move" cost someone their life- a tragedy that could have been easily avoided if she had used basic common sense. THAT is what makes it criminal. And yes, i think that three years is an appropriate penalty for that crime. Having said that, i'm sure she won't serve anything close to that amount of time, if she serves time at all. Out of curiosity, would you feel any differently about this if she had been jaywalking with somebody else's kids? pam

LafayetteLady -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/26/2011 10:52:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gungadin09 Oh my goodness. If the state were to file charges only in cases of CRIMINAL INTENT, where would that leave all the drunk drivers and baby shakers of this world? i'm sure none of them INTENDED to hurt anyone, but they did. And the reason that they did is because they made the decision to act irresponsibly, and that was a conscious decision. In other words, they INTENDED to act irresponsibly, and disregard the possible consequences of their actions. And then, when those consequences come home to roost, when somebody actually gets hurt because of their stupid decision, they try to absolve themselves of all responsibility by saying, well i didn't mean to. Well, sometimes that's just not good enough. Look, i feel sorry for her. i just don't feel NEARLY as sorry for her as i do for her kid who's not going to have a chance to grow up now as the result of her bad judgement. What kind of fool jaywalks with kids, at night? It wasn't a true "accident", she understood the danger and did it anyway. Her "one dumb move" cost someone their life- a tragedy that could have been easily avoided if she had used basic common sense. THAT is what makes it criminal. And yes, i think that three years is an appropriate penalty for that crime. Having said that, i'm sure she won't serve anything close to that amount of time, if she serves time at all. Out of curiosity, would you feel any differently about this if she had been jaywalking with somebody else's kids? pam Actually, Edwynn's inability to understand makes it nothing more than entertainment purpose. Kaliko's exact statement was quote: This is probably a flawed argument in some way, but I think jail should be punishment for people who are a danger to others - in a criminal way. Lots of people are stupid, but their intent is not to harm. Not that only people with "criminal intent" should be charged, that was just Edwynn's lack of reading comprehension coming in because of being too hyped up about things that he/she only imagines are really happening. I believe that Kaliko's point, and if I'm wrong, then she can correct me, is that people whose crimes are of out of negligence or involve violence or harm to others should face incarceration. Not the same as criminal intent. There is all this "nearly a mile away" about the freaking cross walk. Since when did THREE TENTHS OF A MILE become nearly a mile? It is less than half a mile, barely more than a quarter of a mile. Not sure where these people learned math, but less than half is never nearly whole. I am pretty sure that the driving laws for every state say that pedestrians have the right of way, WHEN CROSSING IN A CROSSWALK. Not when jaywalking. Do all municipalities enforce this law? Nope. I was hit by a car in January of this year. I was walking where I was supposed to be walking, wasn't jaywalking AND no matter how it was viewed had the right of way. The girl who hit me was not drunk, on drugs or anything else. She was really devastated by the fact she sent me flying out on to a rural highway (meaning, it is a highway that is in the middle of the town, so even though it is a "highway" it isn't like crossing Route 95). Doesn't make what she did any less wrong. We have no idea what sentence the driver actually received. We only know that he served just six months. Big difference. I can only assume that because of the jaywalking, he was held only partially responsible for the death. For the record, I agree with Kaliko, and don't think her "argument" is all that flawed at all. Incarceration for things like this burden already over crowded prisons and serve little purpose other than someone being able to get their college education paid for while incarcerated (remember Amy Fisher?, College degree while serving her time, all at New Yorker's expense). But that doesn't mean a crime hasn't been committed, or that the convicted shouldn't have a record or face fines, probation and community service. Peppermint: For the record, she wasn't coming home from work, she was out shopping with her children and lost track of time. Why the bus stops so far from an intersection is simply mind boggling. The only thing I can figure is, since they said it was 3/10ths of a mile in either direction to the nearest crosswalk, was that they were attempting to stop in the middle. Should just stop near each intersection. To whoever said something about putting a crosswalk at the bus stop....Cross walks tend to be at intersections, not in the middle of nothing. Move the cross walk. I use public transportation regularly and when I get off the bus, I go to the nearest cross walk if I need to cross. Of course, I'm also in an area that has those signs in the middle of the road reminding people that pedestrians have the right of way. This woman looking for a new trial is hoping for a new result. They can and might decide to sentence her to the three years. If that happens, then she certainly deserves what she gets because she will be being punished for her stupidity.

gungadin09 -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/27/2011 12:01:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady I believe that Kaliko's point, and if I'm wrong, then she can correct me, is that people whose crimes are of out of negligence or involve violence or harm to others should face incarceration. Not the same as criminal intent. i think you meant, people who harm others through negligence (instead of criminal intent) should NOT face incarceration. quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady For the record, I agree with Kaliko, and don't think her "argument" is all that flawed at all. Incarceration for things like this burden already over crowded prisons and serve little purpose other than someone being able to get their college education paid for while incarcerated (remember Amy Fisher?, College degree while serving her time, all at New Yorker's expense). But that doesn't mean a crime hasn't been committed, or that the convicted shouldn't have a record or face fines, probation and community service. i'm not sure i agree for all cases. You may be right as far as this case goes, since it is a first offense. But there are plenty of people who repeatedly harm others through negligence, and i can't say i think the fact that "they didn't mean any harm" should excuse them from jail each time. i agreed with the sentence of three years with the understanding that if she was sentenced to three years she would probably wind up serving a much shorter term. People generally do. However, i can't say i think she shouldn't get any jail time at all just because she didn't intend to do harm, and i certainly can't say that for the sixth time drunk driver, or for the sixth time a mother has left her baby alone in a hot car. At a certain point, a person needs to be held responsible for their stupidity, regardless of whether that stupidity was intentional. pam

LafayetteLady -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/27/2011 12:12:26 AM)
Yes, I did mean that a bit differently, lol. It's well after midnight and my insomnia of the last week is kicking my ass. All cases of criminal negligence would need to be evalutated individually, of course.

LadyPact -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/27/2011 12:57:25 AM)
Where is the part that she actually attempted to protect her kid? What am I missing?

DeviantlyD -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/27/2011 2:35:10 AM)
I don't know if this has been questioned or not as I haven't read the entire thread here, but I can't help wonder, even if there was a crosswalk in place, would the outcome have been any different considering the driver was drunk, on painkillers and almost blind in one eye while driving at night?

gungadin09 -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/27/2011 2:47:04 AM)
Yes, i'm more suprised by the lack of outrage at his sentence, than at the outrage over hers. pam

DeviantlyD -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/27/2011 3:02:17 AM)
I agree gungadin09. Apparently he also still has his driver's license, not to mention prior hit and runs. http://marietta.11alive.com/news/news/convicted-hit-and-run-driver-still-has-drivers-license/73092 Also, from what I had read, it wasn't that she walked across the street and her child was hit. He apparently darted out after seeing an adult stride out onto the road ahead of him. She went out after him, and likely her daughter followed suit. (They were both injured.) I can see it all happening that quickly without her having time to tell her both of her daughters to stay back and yet try to grab her son. Even if she had told her daughters to stay put, can you see a 2 year old listening? She just wants to go where Mommy is. It's sad all way around.

gungadin09 -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/27/2011 3:16:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD Also, from what I had read, it wasn't that she walked across the street and her child was hit. He apparently darted out after seeing an adult stride out onto the road ahead of him. She went out after him, and likely her daughter followed suit. (They were both injured.) I can see it all happening that quickly without her having time to tell her both of her daughters to stay back and yet try to grab her son. Even if she had told her daughters to stay put, can you see a 2 year old listening? She just wants to go where Mommy is. It's sad all way around. Yes, but that''s exactly why they should never have been there. There's nothing mom could have done to "protect" them...other than not putting them there in the first place. pam

DeviantlyD -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/27/2011 3:41:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gungadin09 quote: ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD Also, from what I had read, it wasn't that she walked across the street and her child was hit. He apparently darted out after seeing an adult stride out onto the road ahead of him. She went out after him, and likely her daughter followed suit. (They were both injured.) I can see it all happening that quickly without her having time to tell her both of her daughters to stay back and yet try to grab her son. Even if she had told her daughters to stay put, can you see a 2 year old listening? She just wants to go where Mommy is. It's sad all way around. Yes, but that''s exactly why they should never have been there. There's nothing mom could have done to "protect" them...other than not putting them there in the first place. pam Hindsight is 20/20. I have more thoughts, but I will just reiterate that it is a sad situation.

barelynangel -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/27/2011 4:55:09 AM)
I can see why she is obting for a new trial. She was convicted of a felony. From here on out, every time she applies for a job, someone does a background check etc, they will see this conviction.. So while i think she is putting herself at risk for a heavier sentence, i can see how she would want to get a new trial. For those bitching because i comment on the CRIMINAL intent and the fact SHE IS ENDANGERING her children's lives EVERY TIME she crosses the street at that point especially at night -- its the facts. It's how she was convicted by a jury. Kaliko, i really don't see how this is any different from a parent leaving a kid sleeping in the car and then one day, that child dies because of the circumstances. Endangerment is endangerment. IF she was continually endangering her children and then one died because of this decision, to me her knowledge they could be hurt or even killed crossing the way she did was in fact criminal intent. I don't know what hypersensitiveness you have that many others don't, but you speak of many many other people who endanger they children, what gives you the "sensitivity" to believe and judge this one to be okay but those others you speak of not to be okay? Kaliko make up our mind -- which is it either "I get nervous, though, when we start to consider what could be considered endangerment." or "yet there are so, so many parents out there who are truly endangering the health and safety of their children. They are the ones that deserve judgment and possibly jail time. " You can't have it both ways. Either people are judged on endangerment of children especially WHEN ONE DIES, or they aren't. You can't get nervous on what is considered endangerment and then decide what is endangerment. You can also wonder why is she NOW complaining about the crosswalks being so far away? Because she was arrested? I can't remember did she complain and work on this before she was arrested? Not before her son was killed but in the month after her son was killed before she was arrested?? Why not complain and bug the city to change the stop or the crosswalks before this? angel

DomImus -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/27/2011 6:14:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Why the bus stops so far from an intersection is simply mind boggling. The only thing I can figure is, since they said it was 3/10ths of a mile in either direction to the nearest crosswalk, was that they were attempting to stop in the middle. Should just stop near each intersection. The bus stopped at the marked bus stop which just happens to be 3/10ths of a mile away from the nearest crosswalk. Why they position the bus stops in the manner they do is another question but the bus driver was following the scheduled route. I agree that the bus stops should be placed near intersections with crosswalks. Why this incident has prompted that change already is puzzling.

JstAnotherSub -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/27/2011 6:49:26 AM)
There is a bus stop a few feet from an intersection near me. Even though there is a crosswalk, and a light, people get off the bus and still cross when they shouldn't. They don't want to wait for the light to change. I see it almost every day. I think Cobb County and Marietta and Smyrna City cops should make it a priority to watch bus stops and issue citations. I reckon jaywalking doesn't bring much revenue or something. I can think of no reason why they do not enforce it better.

DomImus -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/27/2011 7:00:46 AM)
I see it all the time everywhere. I pulled out onto Roswell Road in Sandy Springs one night at midnight when I got off work to see a woman with a stroller who had crossed the southbound lanes and was waiting for traffic to clear going northbound and was pushing her stroller down the the double turn "suicide lane". I see jaywalkers on Ponce all the time. There is only so much you can do to protect people from their own stupidity or to prevent their innate stupidity from harming or killing them. I guess in a way it's what Darwin taught us.

Edwynn -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/27/2011 10:35:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel I can see why she is obting for a new trial. ... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kaliko make up our mind -- which is it either ... Why don't you make up your own mind. Would you like to post something that has any semblance of coherency or not? There's a first time for almost everything, not that I'm counting on it in this case.

Edwynn -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/27/2011 10:44:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gungadin09 quote: ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD Also, from what I had read, it wasn't that she walked across the street and her child was hit. He apparently darted out after seeing an adult stride out onto the road ahead of him. She went out after him, and likely her daughter followed suit. (They were both injured.) I can see it all happening that quickly without her having time to tell her both of her daughters to stay back and yet try to grab her son. Even if she had told her daughters to stay put, can you see a 2 year old listening? She just wants to go where Mommy is. It's sad all way around. Yes, but that''s exactly why they should never have been there. There's nothing mom could have done to "protect" them...other than not putting them there in the first place. pam Let's go with that ... "not putting them there in the first place." It is actually impossible for a parent to keep the child out of any position or potential for harm for the entirety of 18 or more years, but that does not seem to deter you. As you have well explained, any single such slip is grounds for criminal negligence, at the least. Why don't we just take the preemptive measure of locking parents up for letting the kids out of the house at all, other than dropping them off to the state cells known as daycare or school. Yes, the mother in this instance took poorly chosen action which resulted in a bad outcome. But my point is that this happens everyday, even if with less spectacular and less 'news worthy' result. I'm not as far apart from your view as you might think. I wish that we could lock up parents for taking the kids to Burger King or letting them watch TV or buying them video games, etc., but that's just not how the world works. By my estimation, about 50% of what become 'parents' don't have any business being such, but given that over 90% of the people who vote have no clue, it's hard for me to clamp down on the former. PS Lest I might have come across as being a bit harsh or judgmental towards the many parents on this site ... Believe you me, having kids in house for years at a time, uncle Ed knows that the first thing a child learns after walking is 'button pushing,' and there is a not insignificant amount of disturbance to 'rational thought' that young ones can bring forth.

Kaliko -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/27/2011 12:30:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel Kaliko make up our mind -- which is it either "I get nervous, though, when we start to consider what could be considered endangerment." or "yet there are so, so many parents out there who are truly endangering the health and safety of their children. They are the ones that deserve judgment and possibly jail time. " I actually concede on that. I started out my first post with my belief that what I had to say would be flawed in some way, not because I think I'm so bad a person or anything, but because I have never really thought about this before in any way to try to explain it to someone. I'm sure there are holes in my thought process. So...I do believe you're correct. I guess I haven't made up my mind. :)

barelynangel -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/27/2011 4:08:28 PM)
Winks at kaliko. Hey it happens and I do get what you are saying believe me. It's why I dais the should suspend any jail time as long as she finishes community service etc. The thing is also IF it can be proven that the city and bus service put a stop there specifically because of the apt complex an argument could be made that they indirectly were leading people to cross at that place. And a civil case could be had. All in all I thought it would be an interest discussion due to a dd getting 6 months and the possibility she would get more time than the driver

LafayetteLady -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/27/2011 4:13:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn It is actually impossible for a parent to keep the child out of any position or potential for harm for the entirety of 18 or more years, but that does not seem to deter you. As you have well explained, any single such slip is grounds for criminal negligence, at the least. Simply put, KNOWINGLY crossing the street with your children in the middle of the block as opposed to going to the cross walk, where it is a least somewhat safer makes all the difference in the world. Yes, children can get themselves into all sorts of trouble. It is the job of the parents to minimize that trouble. If your child doesn't know how to swim, do you let them jump off the diving board into the deep end? Or do you let them go down the stairs at the shallow end. Shit, if your kid doesn't know how to swim, don't you think you have an obligation to watch them around the pool all the time? This woman is a college student. If she isn't smart enough to know you don't cross in the middle of the block, then she doesn't belong in a college setting. You teach your children to cross at the crosswalks, WHEN the signal tells you it is safe to do so. Realistically, this woman risked her and her kids lives knowing the dangers. It is fine for her to take that risk. It isn't fine to risk her kids lives, she is responsible for them. She failed. Yes, it is that simple. Life is full of "silly" inconveniences like busses stopping in the middle of the block. When one chooses to take the more convenient route at the risk of not only their life, but the life of innocent kids, who by their age, are not capable of knowing better.

JstAnotherSub -> RE: Jaywalking mother may get longer jail time than drunk driver (7/27/2011 4:26:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel Winks at kaliko. Hey it happens and I do get what you are saying believe me. It's why I dais the should suspend any jail time as long as she finishes community service etc. The thing is also IF it can be proven that the city and bus service put a stop there specifically because of the apt complex an argument could be made that they indirectly were leading people to cross at that place. And a civil case could be had. All in all I thought it would be an interest discussion due to a dd getting 6 months and the possibility she would get more time than the driver There is not a block on that road that doesn't have an apartment complex. I can think of 3, right off the top of my head, within a mile of the one this happened at. The bus stops are placed all along that road, some have redlights close, some do not. This one did have one close.

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