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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 12:21:54 PM   
philosophy


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I don't necessarily disagree....but it was 'for the sake of argument' as it's a current issue.

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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 12:25:12 PM   
Moonhead


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Fair enough. I just don't think it's a very apt example, is all.

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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 12:27:19 PM   
philosophy


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What can i say?

I'm in the middle of giving up smoking and only on my first cup of coffee waiting for the nicotine patch to kick in.

I'm amazed I managed to spell 'consequences' correctly.......

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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 12:31:01 PM   
Moonhead


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Oh dear.
Never mind me, then. You carry on regardless.



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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 12:57:49 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
While I notice you include the term "liberalism" in your groups that are "mass movements", your list of possible "nut jobs" only include Republicans, some non-left terrorists, Christians, and one of the Republican senators who decided that the fate of the nation was more important than partisan political gain (if he wasn't just bribed).

Seriously? I mean SERIOUSLY? The guy put liberalism in the line up with fascism and communism and you're still accussing him of liberal bias?

Biased, much?


Hey, Steel.  Its been a while.  How's it hanging? 

He put "conservationism" in the list too.  That definitely made the "bias list". 

But, seriously ...

I'm sure that he believes himself to be pretty unbiased, and probably believes that his post was pretty straightforward, and non-inflammatory.

However, if he didn't consciously choose only "non-liberals" for his examples, then his unconscious sure knew what to do.

The subtext of only including "Republicans, non-left terrorists, and Christians" in his "nut-job or not?" list has the effect of posing an unasked question:  "Why are all righties such nut-jobs?"

Firm


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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 1:00:36 PM   
imperatrixx


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Joan of Arc was so not conservative.

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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 1:32:32 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx

Joan of Arc was so not conservative.

Christian.

Firm


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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 1:33:11 PM   
imperatrixx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx

Joan of Arc was so not conservative.

Christian.

Firm



Burned for heresy.

Doesn't count.

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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 1:38:08 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx

Joan of Arc was so not conservative.

Christian.


Burned for heresy.

Doesn't count.

Joan of Arc was beatified in 1909 and canonized in 1920.

Counts. 

Firm


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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 1:39:52 PM   
imperatrixx


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fuck.

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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 1:41:58 PM   
BitaTruble


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fr

Green Peace.



< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 7/28/2011 1:51:22 PM >


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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 1:44:19 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Green Peace.




Green Day. Oh..this isnt one of those word games?

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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 1:45:11 PM   
imperatrixx


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you owe me a herman cain article mister get cracking.

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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 1:53:39 PM   
JWriter


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quote:

I don't think all "true believers" are dangerous, or violent, or even incorrect sometimes, but that type of thought process/worldview is weak to me.


In the case of the people who are not incorrect, how could it be weakness? Faith is a strength. Poorly applying it, by choosing to give it to the wrong person, or choosing not to feed it well with accurate knowledge, is weakness.

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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 2:03:30 PM   
JWriter


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I wouldn't say the people mentioned, such as Timothy McVeigh, qualify as True Believers. They would qualify as False Believers, because, the methods to achieve their goals negate the possibility of the attainment of their goals.
But, yes, "nut job" would apply, across the board, as they either cannot see that their goals are unachievable and the methods to attempt their attainment are wrong (Robert Hansen), or, they can see that their goals are worth fighting for, because, sometimes the fight, being the the voice that cries out "Enough!", or "Freedom!", or "I have a dream!" is worth everything, as it is that sort of devotion to a cause, a people, a belief, and the witness of it, which brings out the best in humanity, even if the person who cries out, dies for it -and, either way, they are not normal little sheep people, holding to the status quo, knees knocking, afraid to be seen as different. Which, of course, makes them abnormal and anything abnormal gets labeled as "nut job" - anything that smacks of zealousness, passion, devotion, ardor, love, is always madness - because, it is outside of one's best self-interest.
In other words, being a "nut job" is sometimes a fact, and, sometimes, just a perception in the mind of the beholder.

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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 2:06:59 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWriter

quote:

I don't think all "true believers" are dangerous, or violent, or even incorrect sometimes, but that type of thought process/worldview is weak to me.


In the case of the people who are not incorrect, how could it be weakness? Faith is a strength. Poorly applying it, by choosing to give it to the wrong person, or choosing not to feed it well with accurate knowledge, is weakness.


Faith is not a strength, its a refuge for those who can't support something rationally.

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gone to ground.

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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 2:10:49 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWriter

I wouldn't say the people mentioned, such as Timothy McVeigh, qualify as True Believers. They would qualify as False Believers, because, the methods to achieve their goals negate the possibility of the attainment of their goals.

You're assuming that's opposed to the true belief thing, but that isn't actually the case. Practicality and the consequences of their actions aren't an issue for those with blind faith, are they? They see their goals as an inevitable reward for the true of heart, rather than something that actually has to be achieved or (God forbid!) negotiated for with heathens whose beliefs differ from their own.

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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 2:33:42 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

The American philosopher Eric Hoffer wrote an interesting book "The True Believer" in 1951. A self-educated former longshoreman and migrant worker, his works have influenced many thinkers.

The book analyzes and attempts to explain the motives of the various types of personalities that give rise to mass movements; why and how mass movements start, progress and end; and the similarities between them, whether religious, political, radical or reactionary. As examples, the book often refers to Communism, Fascism, National Socialism, Christianity, Protestantism and Islam. Hoffer believes that mass movements are interchangeable, that adherents will often flip from one movement to another, and that the motivations for mass movements are interchangeable; that religious, nationalist and social movements, whether radical or reactionary, tend to attract the same type of followers, behave in the same way and use the same tactics, even when their stated goals or values different.

Hoffer argued that all mass movements such as fascism, communism, libertarianism, liberalism, conservatism and religion spread by promising a glorious future. To be successful, these mass movements need the adherents to be willing to sacrifice themselves and others for the future goals. To do so, mass movements need to glorify the past and devalue the present. Mass movements appeal to frustrated people who are dissatisfied with their current state, but are capable of a strong belief in the future. As well, mass movements appeal to people who want to escape a flawed self by creating an imaginary self and joining a collective whole. Some categories of people who may be attracted to mass movements include poor people, misfits, and people who feel thwarted in their endeavor to join or retain their position in the upper classes.

An aspect of the True Believer, the willingness to sacrifice themselves and others for the perceived future goal, could be said to be found in Andreas Beivik, the Norwegian shooter; Timothy McViegh, the Oklahoma City bomber; Eric Rudolph, the abortion clinic and gay bar bomber, suicide bombers in Iraq and Afghanistan and some of the Tea Party/Republican House members who are willing for the United States' economy to be destroyed in order to somehow "save" it. It can also be seen in Joan of Arc, Saint Thomas More and the early Christian martyrs thrown to the lions to entertain the Roman population. Lastly, it can be seen in Senator Edmund G. Ross of Kansas, whose refusal to vote for President Andrew Johnson’s impeachment because of his belief it would set a bad precedent and harm the United States in the future cost him his political career.

When does being a “True Believer” cross the line into being “nut-job”? Killing yourself? Killing someone else? Destroying something like a government building or an economic system/economy?

While I notice you include the term "liberalism" in your groups that are "mass movements", your list of possible "nut jobs" only include Republicans, some non-left terrorists, Christians, and one of the Republican senators who decided that the fate of the nation was more important than partisan political gain (if he wasn't just bribed).

So, I guess you think that no Democrat, Atheist or "liberal" can be a "True Believer", huh?

Biased, much?

Firm





Put upon....victim....much?

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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 3:54:58 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
True believers, whether they're nut jobs or not, tend to have one thing is common.

An inability to admit they're wrong, or not wholly correct.

By itself that is neither a good thing or a bad thing.

I would think its a bad thing being unable to admit one is wrong.

quote:


It all comes down to what their beliefs elad them to do.

If you're a true believer in the idea that your disposable income should go to feed and house the poor, then your beliefs are doing no harm in the world.

If your belief tells you to take the homeless down quiet alleys and kill them, then your beliefs are doing harm in the world.

Both of those actions can be easily classified as either harm or good because their consequences are directly observable.

The difficulty comes when the actions triggered by a belief have consequences that are not immediately apparent.

Speaking as devils advocate here, it is not necessarily self-evident to everyone that killing the poor is doing harm to the world while feeding them isn't. I would of course agree with your sentiment but some would argue that feeding the poor perpetuates dependence, weakness and poverty which would be doing harm. That's the problem that nihilism presents, the idea that right and wrong are not observable phenomena so they don't exist.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 7/28/2011 4:00:12 PM >

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RE: Does being a "True Believer" also mean yo... - 7/28/2011 4:37:21 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Question to all;  the next time there's a terrorist act and I go around screaming, "RIGHT WING CHRISTIAN! RIGHT WING CHRISTIAN!"

What happens if I'm wrong?


If when proved wrong, you went around screaming just as loudly "I WAS WRONG AND I'M SORRY!" - probably nothing except some people thinking, "Wow, someone who honestly admits their mistakes."

If, on the other hand, you were proved wrong and either

(a) denied you ever said it if even when someone played back the tape of you screaming it,

(b) claimed you were mis-interpreted or misunderstood,

(c) claimed you were just joking and a victim of people without a sense of humor, or

(d) claimed that you were really right and the media is falsely reporting that the person wasn't who you screamed he was -

You'd be treated like the boy who cried "wolf" in the famous fable - and we would probably never believe anything you said in the future.






Ok then, if it as revealed that a left wing muslim did it I should stop yelling "RIGHT WING CHRISTIAN! "RIGHT WING CHRISTIAN!" I should appologise to the Christians and then start yelling out, "LEFT WING MUSLIM! LEFT WING MUSLIM!"
Got it.

Oh, I don't know if you guys heard it on the News yet but they arrested a Left Wing Muslim outside Ft Hood, Texas with bomb making  materials in a hotel room next to Ft. Hood!


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