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a slave abandoning "I" - 10/15/2004 10:50:00 AM   
IservBlkKingPaPa


Posts: 84
Joined: 8/17/2004
From: Long Island NY
Status: offline 		Hi

i am hoping to get some insight from other slaves as to abandoning the "I" way of thinking. I am not sure if I can explain this right. But I do need some advice. I would like to achieve the total slave mindset and have heard that starting with abandoning "I" as a way of thinking is helpful. It has been expressed to me, that the thinking of "I" is becoming a problem in my service. Does anybody have any slave resources that I may utilize for reasearch on this subject and/or any advice?

Thank you

@}slave}viktorya}--
Every Rose has her Thorns...
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: a slave abandoning "I" - 10/15/2004 1:24:48 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline 		Here are some previous threads on this that may help you:

how subs talk

this girl....

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


(in reply to IservBlkKingPaPa)
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RE: a slave abandoning "I" - 10/15/2004 1:47:09 PM   
darkpetal


Posts: 24
Status: offline 		"...she must be willing to render herself powerless for His use...."

you say this in your profile

i am not sure what you mean by "abandoning I" if you call yourself a slave and you state the afore mentioned.

are you speaking of empting yourself or selflessness? or more along the line seeing yourself in the third person?

thanks for clarifing
peta

(in reply to IservBlkKingPaPa)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: a slave abandoning "I" - 10/15/2004 1:52:42 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline 		Why do you think that losing the self would aid in making yourself feel more subserviant? (Honest question, no judgment, curious.)

In my mind(!!!), giving up personal control to someone else, while retaining the self is the ultimate type of submission. To me, there is a stronger element of submission in saying "I am a thinking, intelligent, creative, valuable being. I choose to submit my will to this person." I see it as a harder thing to do-to retain will, but subsume it into someone elses.

So, what does it mean to you to serve if you are simply a vessle for service? If a thing lacks will, lacks self, can it be said to have submitted?

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to darkpetal)
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RE: a slave abandoning "I" - 10/15/2004 2:09:35 PM   
darkpetal


Posts: 24
Status: offline
quote:

So, what does it mean to you to serve if you are simply a vessle for service? If a thing lacks will, lacks self, can it be said to have submitted?


very good question!! very good insight!!

peta

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: a slave abandoning "I" - 10/15/2004 3:00:09 PM   
IservBlkKingPaPa


Posts: 84
Joined: 8/17/2004
From: Long Island NY
Status: offline 		are you speaking of empting yourself or selflessness?

i am for His pleasure, His use. I understand my place. But yes i am looking to be selfless. Speaking in third person is one thing, and yes i understand how that may help a slave's mindset. However how does one truly become selfless. It seems that to worry about ones self, even if one worries about others, is something that is inherit. Some people are born with qualities that would describe them as selfless, which in my opinion is a wonderful quality to have. That is a quality that i would like to achieve to improve the quality of my service.

@}slave}viktorya}--
Every Rose has her Thorns...

(in reply to darkpetal)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: a slave abandoning "I" - 10/15/2004 3:49:06 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IservBlkKingPaPa

are you speaking of empting yourself or selflessness?

i am for His pleasure, His use. I understand my place. But yes i am looking to be selfless. Speaking in third person is one thing, and yes i understand how that may help a slave's mindset. However how does one truly become selfless. It seems that to worry about ones self, even if one worries about others, is something that is inherit. Some people are born with qualities that would describe them as selfless, which in my opinion is a wonderful quality to have. That is a quality that i would like to achieve to improve the quality of my service.


What I don't understand is why one would want to be totally without self. I understand selflessness in the context of service- putting the service ahead of the self. However, I can't understand why one would -want- to lose the self, nor how that improves service.

I guess I have a fundamentally different idea of service than you. I prefer to see my place as there to make my partners life easier, better and more enjoyable. To do that, I have to be more than a passive vessle for his pleasure. I have to know him and know what he enjoys. Too, though, I have to know myself and how to temper my own desires such that I can funnel them to how they will fufill his needs.

I don't understand why someone would want property that is without a sense of self. It seems that you have won nothing. Though, I suppose I can understand wanting to build a servant from "the ground up" so to speak, it just isn't a way I could ever serve.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to IservBlkKingPaPa)
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RE: a slave abandoning "I" - 10/15/2004 9:44:06 PM   
darkpetal


Posts: 24
Status: offline 		"...without a sense of self ... totally without self ... lose the self"

IMHO, selflessness does not mean any of the above phrases.
To me, selflessness means the opposite of selfishness.
To me, it takes strength to put anothers needs above your own, for it is within our very beings to always put ourselves first, tis the way God made us.

Emptying ones self is to be a vessel, emptied and waiting to be filled, not with self, but with the desires and passions and will of another. Another quality that takes great strength.

i believe it takes a great sense self worth to be selfless and an open waiting vessel, emptied of self desires.

Do not we all have great worth apart from our performance?
We do if we have a strong sense of self.
Then we truly are deeply loved, fully pleasing, accepted and complete.

To abondon the "I"...what is it that you REALLY want to abandon?

Many times i spoke in third person so that i could detach from the submissive vanilla personality, for i was his sexual slave. That is how i abandoned the "I". Marrying the submissive and sexual slave into who i am as a woman ...that was tricky for that is when my sense of self got caught in the grey matter and fog of life.

A long swim............ upstream.

still breast stroking......... peta

< Message edited by darkpetal -- 10/15/2004 9:45:10 PM >

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: a slave abandoning "I" - 10/16/2004 6:29:37 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IservBlkKingPaPa

It has been expressed to me, that the thinking of "I" is becoming a problem in my service. Does anybody have any slave resources that I may utilize for reasearch on this subject and/or any advice?



well said, darkpetal....it is very hard to be arrogant when u refer to yourself as a posession of Master instead of I. how does one truly become selfless---think of some famous or not so famous people that u know who show us self-less behavior--how did Mother Theresa do it? although this slave is not catholic, she can appreciated mother theresa'a example--have faith in the conviction that what she was doing was not self-serving, but for a larger good--- practice meditation, prayer, focus on the things that are invisible to the eye, she was a vessel for her Master's work---patience, that virtue for which we should all strive. this slave also does not use the terms "my me or mine", because everything that this slave is or has belongs to Master. when this slave became Master's, anything that was of monetary value(cars,etc.) that this slave had ownership of was given away, not sold, given. it is not about being some empty automatron, this slave thinks very few, if any, Masters want that. there is a site called bornslaves.com that might be of some help to u. warmest wishes to u!
beth

(in reply to IservBlkKingPaPa)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: a slave abandoning "I" - 10/16/2004 11:21:45 AM   
IservBlkKingPaPa


Posts: 84
Joined: 8/17/2004
From: Long Island NY
Status: offline 		Thank you darkpetal, those are the exact thoughts that this slave was trying to express. Thank you for the words.
This girl thinks that there are alot of others who think that to be selfless is actually being a robot or empty inside, without self worth. But this girl agrees that it is only to be the opposite of selfish. Something that this girl never thought she was, maybe she isnt considered selfish in the vanilla world, but for service may be preoccupied with the pleasures she desires for herself, just as much as she needs to fullfill her Master's desires, which is something that this girl would like to improve on.
It has been expressed to this girl by her Master that she is now to speak in third person. her Master feels that it may enhance her slave mindset and help her to remain grounded in her service. Thank you all for your helpful posts

@}slave}viktorya}--
Every Rose has her Thorns...

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: a slave abandoning "I" - 10/16/2004 12:42:08 PM   
bottominwa


Posts: 240
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		What we are really speaking of here is better defined as "altruism" or "the unselfish devotion to the welfare of others" the "other" inserted herein being your house or Owner specifically. This girl has found that the "I" mindset does in and of itself hinder altruistic service. If your goal is to form a sort of symbiotic TPE, M/s then giving up a seperatism mindset can only help this. Try to imagine yourself as part of a "whole".
Much of this girl's service is what most woud consider "selfless" or "altruistic" and from her experience it is not something once can arrive at over night, nor is it something that one does not have to continually "work at". After all, in essence we are all still human beings, and human beings still have id and ego. Without a full frontal labotomy then it is impossible to escape your humanness...so the concept that one ever becomes without self is mute. It just does not happen. Merc and Beth gave the example of Mother Teresa, mother Teressa was still a human being. This girl is sure she still had things she enjoyed that had little if anything to do with her martyrdom. Perhaps she liked lemonade, perhaps she liked poetry...who knows the point is one doe snot cease being a "self" through altruistic service. In fact Thomas Iquinas argued that altruism is the only path to self.
So in a nutshell the first step is to beleive you are but a part of your Owner or His life, or His house however you yourself define it. You may just find it is very liberating.

Be well,

sabrina King

House of King

< Message edited by bottominwa -- 10/16/2004 12:56:55 PM >

(in reply to IservBlkKingPaPa)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: a slave abandoning "I" - 10/16/2004 5:22:42 PM   
cariad


Posts: 943
Joined: 9/25/2004
From: Calgary, Alberta
Status: offline 		this slave took to saying "this slave" when she had her Gorean training and although her present Master is not Gorean and she is no longer a Gorean slave, she has carried through to her relationship with Master. He requires that she say this instead of the usual: me, my, mine and i because it is how He prefers a slave to speak unless of course W/we are in the presence of those who are not bdsm aware/friendly, this slave tries her best to continue saying this slave even though her and Master are separated by 3000 miles once again after her first visit with Him in August of this year.

it's a difficult thing to separate the slave from the "vanilla" though when at work or in the view of others who are not bdsm aware/friendly.

this slave hopes this helps you a bit.

_____________________________

The Path To Being A Good slave Takes Hard Work, A Willingness To Learn, Ability To Take Criticism and the Ability To Take Punishments Well. i Am Still Learning So Please Be Patient With me, As i Walk the Path to Being A good slave. SLRN: 742 958 000

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RE: a slave abandoning "I" - 10/16/2004 6:28:49 PM   
gypsy1110


Posts: 5
Joined: 9/8/2004
Status: offline 		I dont think its possible for someone to lose their "self". As submissives we are beings with wants and desires. That cannnot be changed just because we are submissive. What can be changed is the level in which we control our wants and put our Dominants desires ahead of ours. I do not believe that abandoning the use of "I" in your speech will make an impact on your desire to put his pleasure ahead of yours.

I would say that behavior modification through the denial of your pleasure would be much more effective. Withholding sexual pleasure is an example.

(in reply to cariad)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: a slave abandoning "I" - 10/16/2004 7:50:08 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsy1110

"... That cannnot be changed just because we are submissive. What can be changed is the level in which we control our wants and put our Dominants desires ahead of ours. I do not believe that abandoning the use of "I" in your speech will make an impact on your desire to put his pleasure ahead of yours."


the original post was not discussing controlling her wants as a submissive. she was talking about making adjustments to her speech in order to further her path of slavery. submissives may struggle to control their wants and desires so that their owner's wants and desires are ahead of theirs, but a slave has no wants or desires save that of pleasing her Master(or honoring His house) if it is her Master's pleasure for her to abandon "I" then her doing so will not only please Him, but will give her another opportunity to fulfill her purpose. speaking as a slave who has abandoned "I", it does make an impact in reinforcing one's place as a posession of Master, part of the slave mindset she was referring to.
respectfully,
beth

(in reply to gypsy1110)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: a slave abandoning "I" - 10/16/2004 8:32:50 PM   
gypsy1110


Posts: 5
Joined: 9/8/2004
Status: offline 		So would you say that its the immediate act of leaving the "I" that gives the Master fulfillment or the end result?


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: a slave abandoning "I" - 10/16/2004 8:59:16 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		this slave cannot speak for "the" Master, but when asking Master your question He responded "Yes, both."
sincerely,
beth

(in reply to gypsy1110)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: a slave abandoning "I" - 10/16/2004 11:10:32 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

submissives may struggle to control their wants and desires so that their owner's wants and desires are ahead of theirs, but a slave has no wants or desires save that of pleasing her Master(or honoring His house)


I have to disagree with this, as that is -your- definition of slavery.

Do you define slavery as one who has reached that level? Are people working toward that goal not slaves?

Regardless, I disagree that a slave has no wants. I believe slaves want a fufilling relationship, else why would they be with their partners? If a slave had no wants at all he/she could simply exist in the world and would not need to serve or be in a partnership at all. ~shrug~ I think the simple fact that one defines ones self as a slave implies some wants for the self.


_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: a slave abandoning "I" - 10/17/2004 10:37:13 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IservBlkKingPaPa

"...i am hoping to get some insight from other slaves...I would like to achieve the total slave mindset and have heard that starting with abandoning "I" as a way of thinking is helpful.""


ORIGINAL: gypsy1110

"... That cannnot be changed just because we are submissive. What can be changed is the level in which we control our wants and put our Dominants desires ahead of ours. I do not believe that abandoning the use of "I" in your speech will make an impact on your desire to put his pleasure ahead of yours."

the original poster was speaking from the position of a slave, not as a submissive. can we agree that every slave is submissive, but not every submissive is a slave? when this slave responded to gypsy's reply it was not to enter into debate about definitions of slavery, it was to try to explain how a submissive might see abandoning I as pure folly because it might not improve a submissives mindset, as they strive to control their wants and put their Master's desires ahead of their own, where as a slave's mindset strives not to control wants, but not to have desires "of their own" in which to have to control. this slave is not speaking of the desire to have toilet paper to wipe with or electricity so that one can turn on lights when it gets dark.......however we could debate what qualifies as a want versus what qualifies as a need, then we could move on to debating religion when someone mentions spiritual health as a need.

"...I would like to achieve the total slave mindset and have heard that starting with abandoning "I" as a way of thinking is helpful. It has been expressed to me, that the thinking of "I" is becoming a problem in my service."

Doms use speech control as a tool for different reasons, or just because it brings them pleasure. the most common reason this slave has heard of within the context of a slave abandoning I, is so that the slave can focus on her position as a possession of Master, which in turn, theoritically improves her ability to serve Him. how that would affect a submissives control of her wants, this slave does not nor claims to know.
this slave's responses are not intended to spark debate on definitions, just offering this slave's experience abandoning I and her position that it's affect on the mindset of submissive versus it's affect on the mindset of slave are not the same.

(in reply to IservBlkKingPaPa)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: a slave abandoning "I" - 10/17/2004 10:55:55 AM   
IservBlkKingPaPa


Posts: 84
Joined: 8/17/2004
From: Long Island NY
Status: offline 		slave_viktorya did not mean to start a controversy and she does apologize. she is grateful for everybodies input as to her inquiry and found evrybodies suggestions, thoughts and comments very helpful. she has tried to express accurately what it is that she is trying to learn, but she has fallen short. mercnbeth has helped her, further explain her thoughts & questions and for that she is grateful. what mercnbeth has explained is what she is trying to achieve.


@}slave}viktorya}--
Every Rose has her Thorns...

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 19
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