RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid



Message


maybemaybenot -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/20/2006 9:46:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot

[Nope never been to Africa. But I will say because of Diane Fosse fight and her death, plus the overwheming refusal of people to buy ivory these practices have been made illegal. I would place all my money, that at the tip of it all IS a rich White man.
 
*Brightspot



In the post JohnWarren and I referring to, you state that "but that rarely happens because natives of  Africa have respect for their animal relatives"
 
 
The point you are missing is that natives of Africa are killing and cashing in on ivory. No matter who is behind it. By your own inference,  Some Native Africans have a compulsion to harming animals. Yet they kill en masse, whether it is for the " great white hunter" or the local poacher.. they are doing the exact oppisite of what you claim.
Which negates your arguement, for me.
 
                          mbmbn
 
don't know how I got your font and colour, but i have no idea how to fix it[&:]




brightspot -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/20/2006 9:55:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot

[Nope never been to Africa. But I will say because of Diane Fosse fight and her death, plus the overwheming refusal of people to buy ivory these practices have been made illegal. I would place all my money, that at the tip of it all IS a rich White man, taking advantage of poor natives so they won't have the blood staining their own hands.
 
*Brightspot



In the post JohnWarren and I referring to, you state that "but that rarely happens because natives of  Africa have respect for their animal relatives"
 
 
The point you are missing is that natives of Africa are killing and cashing in on ivory. No matter who is behind it. By your own inference,  Some Native Africans have a compulsion to harming animals. Yet they kill en masse, whether it is for the " great white hunter" or the local poacher.. they are doing the exact oppisite of what you claim.
Which negates your arguement, for me.
 
                          mbmb

 
don't know how I got your font and colour, but i have no idea how to fix it[&:]


I was stating that the Natives who may have come to choose(because I don't believe it in their long history) to kill elephants or gorilla for money, I would put my money on there being a rich white man behind it all.
 
I am not trying to argue but express my opinions.
 
*Brightspot




xxmstrchasxx -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/20/2006 10:25:30 PM)

Well, this is a subject close to my heart.  I have studied reptiles for over 40 years.  I lived in Florida and waded with the gators in the everglades and took their pictures..  I have also stradled a ten foot gator to get a better photo.

Regardless of what people say, gators have personalities just like any other animal.  I have been within a foot of many gators that did nothing at all.  I have been within 20 feet of some gators that turned completely around to come towards me at a high rate of speed.

I have never shot or harmed a gator but have nudged them gently with a strong stick to move them away sometimes.

It is mating season in Florida.  This is when the gators are most protective and protect their territory and their females.  I don't know about all the people who got killed by gators but I know the one lady was dangling her feet in the water where she knew there were gators.  What do you think a gator's instinct tells it to do when there is splashing in the water?  Investigate it right?  Once it did then saw these moving parts he thought it was something to eat.  Makes sense.

People use to go to the glades see an alligator and feed it, I have seen it dozens of times.  So now, the gator associates the people with food and who's fault is that?  Certainly not the gators.

Are gators natural killing machines like people say when it comes to humans?  Not really, if you are on land and go towards a gator most will speed off.  I have only had very few that stayed where they were, one being the 10 footer I stradled.  Over 90% of them will leave on their own. 

Even in the water most will never harm you if you're not splashing around or theatening them.  Kent Bleet (sp) from the University of Florida lays in the water with them and like me only uses a stick to nudge them away if they come to close or they seem aggressive in some way.

People have taken over their territory and then wonder why they have problems with gators.  Even in the glades people are right there living.

Now if you want the truth about relocating gators here it is.  They don't relocate any gator 4 foot or longer.  They kill it.  The state trappers don't get paid money to relocate gators they get the meat from the gator they kill, so which would you do if you were a trapper?

As far as the gator on TV, the guy didn't have it secured right and the gator was 11 foot long and they hoisted it with a wrecker.  No wonder the gator was acting hostile.

There have been more attacks and people killed this year than most but again some people have done stupid things apparently not thinking and got attacked.

In reality, you have more of a chance of being killed by lightening than killed by a gator a thousand times over.  Gators have not even averaged killing one human a year in the last 50 years.

My sub has also waded with the gators and held quite a few.  I do put myself between her and the gators though.  Now, I do want to say one thing.....even if you have a desire to wade with the gators..DON'T!  I have studied them for decades before I ever waded with them.

I used to have a tagged gator in my kitchen LOL, my girlfriend at the time told me if she had to race it to the coffee pot to get coffee she was leaving.  I really miss that woman.







NastyDaddy -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/20/2006 10:33:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
You could say that the territory is the animal's natural habitat, but of course a house is the natural habitat of humans.


What did humans live in before houses?

Split the hairs whichever direction you like, but it all boils down to the survival of the fittest. Yes, fitness includes intellect far more superior than mere class skills and intellect will often prevail over strength. For instance in the big picture story of alligators eating or preying upon humans, a long time ago it may have been true there were more alligators than people, but since people do actually prefer not living in swamps, their populations vastly increased over time. Of course their population explosion and proliferation was mostly accomplished away from the alligator's domains, those lovely swamps.

With the passage of more time, population increases along with higher intellect and formal schooling processes, the human presence spread all over the globe, and within close proximity to the alligator domains again. While subtle natural barriers still separated them, humans began to carve inland waterways for the convenience and luxury of boating. These interconnecting waterways and canal systems eventually connect to the swampy wetlands and the alligators begin to explore what seems to be new terrirory, or domain for them... not knowing the mostly weak but intelligent human creatures, and their philosophy of emminent domain... The alligator finds itself in much the same position as native american indians did 200 years ago... losing it's domain to human urban sprawl, pollution, waste and greed... all byproducts of human intellect and often the strength of lesser beasts under their control. If the alligator had any form of relative use to humans, they may be spared for their utility... but since they present more of a liability they must go... little by little until backed deep into their swampland homes unthreatening to any humans who have taken over.

Humans will eventually exterminate any species constituting any form of threat to their longevity. Will any alligators be hunted down and killed after an alligator attack incident... hell yes, we can't afford the real estate values to take a hit.

It's ironic that alligators and Geronimo have quite a bit in common... our need for their territory is greater than their own.

 




Estring -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/21/2006 1:23:52 AM)

Are you kidding? That is what you are angry about? Lol.




mons -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/21/2006 1:33:52 AM)

greeting mmmmmmm

Ok let me understand this the poor alli is being tie and not treat well
oh wait he just ate a thinking human being, ok then there is the fact in Africa
they have a huge food supply but ...............wait they still have this taste for mmm humans

please if this were you childm mother, brother , father or sister you would want that thing kill


mons/jane i would in a flodria mintue :)




Dustyn -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/21/2006 5:26:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dustyn
I didn't assign any purely human traits to 'gators in what I posted.  They ARE killing machines, pure and simple.  Within a week of hatching, even the young are considered prey.  They eat their own kind.  Dogs, cats, deer.  If it's made of meat, it's literally fair game to a 'gator.


Crocodilians aren't human, but they do have a highly complex social structure with amazingly fine degrees of communication and social interaction.  Cannibalistic behavior does occur in males, but adult females (including genetically unrelated animals) will actively protect the young in response to specific juvenile vocalizations, and maternal care behaviors are well documented.  In some cases (recently documented, still somewhat controversial) mothers will actually bring food to their young while denying adult males access.  A "pod" of young alligators is a social association involving one or more adult females who may or may not be genetically related to any of the juveniles, and neonates and juveniles from different clutches over an age range of about three years.  Crocodilians are a lot more complex than they may seem, more closely kin to birds and dinosaurs perhaps than to reptiles, certainly in a behavioral sense.

Some crocodilians are pack hunters, showing a fantastic degree of cooperation and coordination that suggests even more complex communication strategies than have already been documented.  Crocodilians can voluntarily slow or speed their hearts, change their hearts from four chambered to three chambered at will and constrict blood vessels in a specific area to stop flow to an extremity (or to annoy researchers who want a sample).  Some may be capable of generating true endothermic heat in a way that is still poorly understood, though this is another controversial piece of documentation.  Could this capability be one of the keys to solving the long running scientific debate about warm blooded dinosaurs and the four chambered, mammal-like dinosaur heart?  Some scientists think so.

Almost all crocodilians show what can only be described as a mammal-like response to behavioral conditioning.  It takes some species only a few months of regular training to respond reliably with some amazingly complex sets of learned behaviors.  Their response to behavioral shaping and clicker or "bridge" training is comparable to that of hooved animals.  That's pretty damn impressive from an animal behavior standpoint.  Somebody really needs to print a bumper sticker saying, "My croc may be smarter than your horse." 

Killing machines?  Perhaps.  Nature designed them to be frighteningly efficient at what they do.  JUST killing machines?  Absolutely not.  No one who actually knows these animals could agree.



Yes, some crocodilians form hunting packs, but unlike lions, or hyenas, for example, they don't do it in an altruistic manner.  Lion prides or wolf packs hunt in groups for the benefit of the entire group.  Generally, the only time large groups of crocodialins are spotted, there is also a migration occuring at the same time.  Better success in numbers, and frequently kills are fought over nearly as hard as the kill itself.  Lame or injured crocodilians are frequently turned into a handy meal by an ambitious cousin.

As to the young, females do tend to care for them for a short period of time, but within the span of only a few months, a scarcity of food will remove any and all 'maternal' instincts and the little crocodile that was once hitching a ride in mommy's mouth will be there for an entirely different reason.

Crocodilians are one of the best living fossils in existance today, competing only with great white sharks for that dubious distinction.  They are virtually unchanged, except in size, for roughly 10 million years.  Of course they are killing machines.  They are amazingly efficient hunters.  10 million yeras is a long time for anything to exist, let alone manage it with only a few minor, in the scope of natural selection and what not, changes in that amount of time.  They eat, they breed, and that is almost the extent of their existence.  There might be some, but I can't remember any major papers about crocilians, as a whole, forming any communal groups, along with everything that would entail.

I respect the crocodile and alligator immensely.  They are brutal, lethal and efficient creatures.  They are a creature of power, strength and virility, since they do tend to live longer than the average human, except, of course, for accidents.  I respect them enough to gladly say they can have all of Florida if they want it.  They were there first, and without some kind of technology, or at least a dump truck full of luck, I'd easily be on the menu without a second thought from one of them.

Everyone's all up in arms about encroaching on cougar land, or bear land, or even wolf ranges.  Crocodiles and alligators get the shaft frequently by people that have more money than common sense.  I've always voted for leaving them alone.  Just as you should let sleeping dogs alone, you should let swimming alligators alone as well.

- Dustyn




GddssBella -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/21/2006 8:17:27 AM)

G'morning all:


*curtsies to Nc* I sit corrected. My purpose was to  illustrate effectiveness of the tail portion of the gator. The numbers may vary from source to source, but the jaw still works as specified. I do enjoy your posts and the obvious research  you put into them.

brightspot, I personally would rather see most of the human population sterilized simply because of our species' encroachment on wildlife areas, but if it's between me and the gator? Guess who I'm opting for survival? It's called self interest. My point is this; if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Very simple.

As for the others' factoids regarding critters? I'm always open to being educated or watching a great debate. Please, enlighten us all some more. [:)]


Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...


[:D]


Bella




Dustyn -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/21/2006 8:28:18 AM)

quote:


As for the others' factoids regarding critters? I'm always open to being educated or watching a great debate. Please, enlighten us all some more.
 


Worms are all wriggly and kitties are fuzzy... LOL

- Dustyn




RiotGirl -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/21/2006 9:51:25 AM)

Has anyone mentioned its mating season?

Horny alligators running abound

Oh and it is illegal to kill the gators down here.

Went to gatorland the other day.. twas great.  Stood on the other side of a fence and watched a handler surrounded by 20 or so gators.. feeding them.. and smacking one on the head with a stick repeatedly.. then the handler notified all that the fence wasnt to keep them in, as they can climb an 8 foot fence.. its to keep us out.

Just imagine... 20 alligators and nothign stopping them from getting to you.  Looooovely.  Really enjoyed watching her smack the gator on the head with the stick.  LOL  Twas wondering when it was gonna get fed up and eat her = )

Walked around gator land with friends and wee ones.. saw alot of gators that well.. were pretty close that could easily say "hungry"  LOL  Did find out, they cant climb higher then 8 feet, cant jump on land, can in water.. and are generally lazy.

So like they're too lazy to climb the 8 foot fence to bother with ya... unless ya piss em off.  Like run off with a gator baby or something.  Ferciously protective of the babies..

Wondered if any of the attacks had to do with babies........ or just horny male gators

yeah cant kill em... but think you can molest them.. MAYBE there just isnt enough female gators around.. and the male gators dont realise that humans are abit more delicate then female gators?




Dustyn -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/21/2006 10:15:54 AM)

Not to derail the train, or anything, but you're tagline is ringing a bell in my head about something, Riot, but I can't quite put my finger on it.  Where did you find it? LOL

I hate having something on the tip of my tongue, but can't quite seem to spit it out.

- Dustyn




Najakcharmer -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/21/2006 10:52:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dustyn
Yes, some crocodilians form hunting packs, but unlike lions, or hyenas, for example, they don't do it in an altruistic manner.  Lion prides or wolf packs hunt in groups for the benefit of the entire group. 


Crocodylus rhombifer pack hunting behavior does in fact benefit the group as a whole. There have been some really excellent papers on crocodilian behavior coming out of the last few years worth of conferences in the field.


quote:

As to the young, females do tend to care for them for a short period of time, but within the span of only a few months, a scarcity of food will remove any and all 'maternal' instincts and the little crocodile that was once hitching a ride in mommy's mouth will be there for an entirely different reason.


Alligator missisipiensis females been documented to continue behaving "maternally" towards neonates and juveniles for pretty much their entire lives.  Some of these young animals may not be related to the "maternally" acting females associated with the pod. 


quote:

There might be some, but I can't remember any major papers about crocilians, as a whole, forming any communal groups, along with everything that would entail.


Which field are you reading in?  If it's just taxonomy, you've been missing a lot.




Najakcharmer -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/21/2006 10:57:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxmstrchasxx

Well, this is a subject close to my heart.  I have studied reptiles for over 40 years.  I lived in Florida and waded with the gators in the everglades and took their pictures..  I have also stradled a ten foot gator to get a better photo.


PM me for shop talk.  I have some photos you might like to see. ;)


quote:

Even in the water most will never harm you if you're not splashing around or theatening them.  Kent Bleet (sp) from the University of Florida lays in the water with them and like me only uses a stick to nudge them away if they come to close or they seem aggressive in some way.


It's Vliet, and I guess we have mutual acquaintances.  ;)


quote:

Now if you want the truth about relocating gators here it is.  They don't relocate any gator 4 foot or longer.  They kill it.  The state trappers don't get paid money to relocate gators they get the meat from the gator they kill, so which would you do if you were a trapper?


Not all of us were in it for the money.  But most of the licensed folks are, yes. 

quote:

My sub has also waded with the gators and held quite a few.  I do put myself between her and the gators though.  Now, I do want to say one thing.....even if you have a desire to wade with the gators..DON'T!  I have studied them for decades before I ever waded with them.


Riding them into the water is always good fun.  ;)




PlayfulOne -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/21/2006 11:08:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne
Oh Please,  that would be a neat trick if you could duct tape  an alligators "arms and legs" behind their back.  They don't streatch that way. 


You'd be surprised, actually.  Crocodilian limbs can do a bit of a rotation trick in order to propel them in the "galloping" gait, which is quite different from their usual mode of locomotion.  Aussie freshies seem to be the most frequent "gallopers" from what I've seen, followed by Cuban crocs, but even the species that rarely use the elevated gait have the physical range of motion in their limbs.  It's more flexible there than you might imagine just from looking at them.

For immobilization, the hind legs are usually "splinted" all the way around the tail.  That is well within their range of motion.  If the forelimbs need additional restraint, one technique I've seen used is "shackles" where the tape is put around the "wrists", and a length is doubled and passed over the body.  The forelimbs are not always restrained; it depends on the method of transport and the length of time of transport.  For that matter the hind limbs don't always need to be restrained for transport either.  Head bagging, jaw taping and eye taping is usually quite sufficient.  Some pressure on the animal's back seems to help too; it appears to be a behavioral trigger for them since dominant animals will use their weight in this manner to make another croc submit.


quote:

Now do you actually believe for a moment the duct tape is harming an alligators skin?  They hold their mouths shut because their power is in the closing not the opening, whether they do it with rope, those big rubber bands they use, or duct tape  doesn't matter.


Duct tape can and does cause abrasions on crocodilian skin, which is why black electrical tape is more common for repeated use, especially on smaller (under 8') captive animals.  If you leave any tape or band on for more than a few hours, you will cause pressure necrosis and skin sloughing.  This effect tends to be more pronounced with duct tape than electrical tape.  The duration can be extended somewhat by using other materials as padding in addition to the tape, but if you attempt to ship a crocodilian overnight with tape on, the vet is pretty much guaranteed to have a job at the other end.  Bad idea.  So yes, duct tape can certainly harm an alligator's skin if improperly applied or if left on for more than a few hours. 



Yada Yada Yada,  speaking as one who has been out with the trappers and held a permit once again,  theiir legs don't rotate around where you  would tie them behind their back,  that has nothing to do with how they rotate on the side as they run.  When you've trapped one we'll compare notes

K




leatherorlace -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/21/2006 11:09:21 AM)

Maybe not Mars, but, I for one have considered our origins, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that the god's were ancient astronauts that "seeded" Gaia with an evolving critter, US.
Gentry




Najakcharmer -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/21/2006 9:01:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne
Yada Yada Yada,  speaking as one who has been out with the trappers and held a permit once again,  theiir legs don't rotate around where you  would tie them behind their back,  that has nothing to do with how they rotate on the side as they run.  When you've trapped one we'll compare notes


I'd say more than one.  LOL

Read the post again, more carefully this time. The hind legs are not fastened "behind the back" but splinted to and around the tail.  If the forelimbs need restraint, which isn't always necessary depending on why you're immobilizing the animal and for how long, they can be "shackled" with a loop around each wrist and a length of doubled-over duct tape between the loops.  We found it generally more convenient to "shackle" them over the back to avoid the tape being abraded or dragged if we were making a "croc sleigh" to pull an animal forward.

I think you misunderstood my use of the word "rotate".  I am referring to a rotation that crocodilians perform voluntarily to shift gaits from the "belly crawl" to the "high walk" or the gallop.  http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/cnhc/cbd-gb5.htm   Their limbs are a lot more flexible than most people would think if they haven't handled them.  Not nearly flexible enough to meet behind their backs, but flexible enough to use the method I've described where the limbs are pinned back parallel to the body. 




Dustyn -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/21/2006 9:44:50 PM)

When I get a day off, I'll try to track down some of these articles yer talking about in yer reply to me.  Always enjoy reading about the pure hunters.  By pure hunters, I mean the fact that the creature in question, has very few natural hunters beyond humans.

- Dustyn




Najakcharmer -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/21/2006 9:49:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dustyn

When I get a day off, I'll try to track down some of these articles yer talking about in yer reply to me.  Always enjoy reading about the pure hunters.  By pure hunters, I mean the fact that the creature in question, has very few natural hunters beyond humans.


PM me and I'll be glad to help with more specific information.  Always fun to talk shop with someone who's interested or involved in the field.




brightspot -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/22/2006 12:38:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mons

greeting mmmmmmm

Ok let me understand this the poor alli is being tie and not treat well
oh wait he just ate a thinking human being, ok then there is the fact in Africa
they have a huge food supply but ...............wait they still have this taste for mmm humans

please if this were you childm mother, brother , father or sister you would want that thing kill


mons/jane i would in a flodria mintue :)


Answer >No I wouldn't.
 
*Brightspot




brightspot -> RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... (5/22/2006 1:17:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Are you kidding? That is what you are angry about? Lol.


No not kidding[sm=moon.gif].
Witnessing injustices against animals or vulnerable human beings being taken advantage of pisses me off!
 
As it so happened I was logged in and reading the boards when I saw this footage, it had been about the 4th or 5th time I had seen footage of the alligators being harrassed and restrained that day, even though in each incident the humans envolved were being complete idiot's knowing full well they were in gator territory. One woman had just hung up from a relative saying she was going to go kill herself and purposefully went down by the edge of that pond and made her presence known to the gators.
 
Maybe the guy that got away with just pucture wounds to the arm, should be restrained with duck tape and rope tied(non-consenually) and educated about messing around in gator territory and not freed until he can prove he's smartened up?.
 
Yes, I own my sensitive nature and my passion when it comes to injustices. It's quite obvious by your response that those concepts are sadly and most likely way beyond your ability to gasp them[sm=sleepy.gif].
 
*Brightspot




Page: <<   < prev  2 3 4 [5] 6   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875