Playful Disobedience

Playful Disobedience (Full Version)

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Master09 -> Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 6:50:14 AM)
I'm currently with a submissive and we've been together for almost 7 months now. She's going to school up north and we've been seeing each other mostly during the summer. We're both quite new at this, but I have read a great deal to ensure that I lay the foundation for the type of relationship that we want. It's been quite challenging I've had to uncover so many things about myself as this relationship has progressed and obviously I have not done everything perfectly. In pretty much every respect I've become what you could call the "loving dominant" and I feel I am with someone who genuinely does wish to surrender to me fully but I'm either not able to push past some initial resistance or I am reading into things inappropriately. What we both want eventually, in say a few months is an absolute relationship she wants me as her Master and I want her as my slave. I've already collared her after the 5th month. The thing that's bugging me is I feel she's being a bit bratty from time to time and it really does not look like something bad on the surface but I feel it's somehow compromising the level of respect and authority I want/desire in the relationship. For example sometimes we'll be talking and we'll be joking around or we'll be talking normally and she'll start mocking me, like repeating what I say etc. in a playful manner. Or sometimes she will say "You know I run this" and we have a little back and fourth sort of thing in a playful manner. Other times when I tell her like the other day I told her that what I expect from her is her complete obedience and she jokingly replies that I'm going to be disobedient, etc. Of course she says I'm joking and tells me that she will obey me in every way etc. so I let it slide. The lingering feelings I have however is when I think of how I want the relationship to be established, like I think about how she treats her boss, I know she wouldn't even think of telling her boss "I run this" or telling her father something similar. I want the same from her because I feel in the end that she will be in a state of higher respect that correctly establishes the dynamic I am interested in. I think if she is saying these things even jokingly I must have gone wrong somewhere. One of the reasons I feel that this is a problem is I think she is trying to keep some power in the relationship by doing this and I think this will inevitably keep her from fully surrendering to me, and trust me at a deeper level because at the end of the day I know she craves leadership and the desire to respect me and that's something I will do my best to establish. When we are doing other things vanilla related or having sex I notice that there is some resistance, inevitably she does what I want her to do and I clearly have the control of things but it appears that I am not getting her to fully surrender to me and more then anything I want that from her for my sake and for hers. There are times when I want her to do something and I get a sigh of discontent or she tells me she does not want to do something which doesn't happen often but when it does I realize that the dynamic is not where it should be, she still feels she has a say in things even though it was established early on that she would not. So maybe she feels she has some control over some of the decision making, and the way that things have progressed has led the both of us feeling like authority in the relationship is shared on 70/30 or 60/40 basis and respect has not been properly established in a way that would allow a transition to a absolute M/s relationship. If that is the case then anyone who has encountered these similar issues and knows where I'm coming from I want to ask what are some things I can do to reestablish the level of respect and authority in a way that allows the slave to transition smoothly without the belief that she has done something wrong or that I have overlooked this behavior pattern of hers. I know that the fault lies with myself, as I caught the behavior early and addressed it but instead decided to allow it because I did believe at the time that it was harmless but I feel there is a good opportunity to fix this now, I know she is willing to change for me I just want to make sure I help her make the change effectively rather then run into an unwanted resistance.

DecadentDesire -> RE: Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 7:43:31 AM)
My intuition to your post tells me that she is playfully flirting and that you have some insecurities over your own authority in the relationship that are warping this into a big dealer than it is. I also think that you have quite a few misconceptions about how this "is supposed to work" brought upon by your heavy focus on your power/authority in the relationship instead of the "relationship" iself. Here is a few segments from your post to lead me to that conclusion... quote: I think if she is saying these things even jokingly I must have gone wrong somewhere she still feels she has a say in things even though it was established early on that she would not So maybe she feels she has some control over some of the decision making And that's not all by a long shot. If you want advice, here you go... One, loosen up. Chill out. Don't focus so heavily on the goal. It takes years to develop a good M/S relationship where the submissive/slave has enough comfort and trust to relinquish authority over every aspect of their life. It is not going to happen over night. 7 months seeing each other on and off long distance isn't shit. If I know anything, I know that lol. Two, don't take every action that doesn't correspond to your vision of how a slave should be as an insult to your authority. D/S is a lot like love. It's something that we express with actions. But just because we don't spend 24/7 expressing our love to our partners or even express other emotions or concepts from time to time does not mean the love we feel is gone. Three, I'm under the opinion that you cannot lead a successful relationship without letting your partner have a say in your decisions. It's possible, I suppose, but I would imagine it's really fucking hard. And why make it hard? You still make the decisions even if she has a say in them, right? Four, it is way way WAY too early into this for her NOT to maintain some degree of control over her decision making. Five, if her behavior is really bugging you, then sit down and have an open discussion about it. Find out her motives and why she does it. Get her to validate her feelings towards you and her investment in the relationship. Support each other like a good, healthy couple does. (And, remember, having "open discussion" is dependent on both people not flipping out over the "open" part)

leadership527 -> RE: Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 7:54:10 AM)
Or, if you don't like all the really good advice DD gave you, you could always sit her in a corner with her knees on rice grains... that is one of the standard punishments as I understand it. Or, perhaps a good stout caning would thrash all the vibrancy and life out of her? I'm going to go with... "Is she or is she not ACTUALLY obedient to you?" If she is, then you're getting led on a wild goose chase by your own insecurities. If she is not, then you need to take control. In both cases, it's not a big deal. The first is a matter of controlling yourself and the second a matter of controlling her. If you cannot control yourself then you can never really control anyone else. There's a lot of other things that DD said that you really need to listen to... like for instance... timing.

Master09 -> RE: Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 8:14:09 AM)
It's not that I expect her to give me control of every aspect of her life at the drop of the hat, she has family and spends time with them which is more then alright and she has studies and other responsibilities that are important. I'm just having a hard time seeing the difference between being flirty and being bratty. I've seen how sometimes a behavior pattern starts to get established early on and if enough time sets in where it's ongoing it can be quite difficult to change later on. But perhaps it's normal for that to happen in a relationship between D/s or even M/s where the submissive flirts with her Dom by telling him she's in control, etc?

DecadentDesire -> RE: Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 8:22:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Master09 It's not that I expect her to give me control of every aspect of her life at the drop of the hat, she has family and spends time with them which is more then alright and she has studies and other responsibilities that are important. I'm just having a hard time seeing the difference between being flirty and being bratty. I've seen how sometimes a behavior pattern starts to get established early on and if enough time sets in where it's ongoing it can be quite difficult to change later on. But perhaps it's normal for that to happen in a relationship between D/s or even M/s where the submissive flirts with her Dom by telling him she's in control, etc? The underlying motivations determine the difference. There is a huge difference between making a comment out of a desire to be playful and loosen up the conversation and making a comment as a passive aggressive dig to undermine your authority and "get at you". As far as whether it's "normal", well...it's not a question of whether or not it's "normal" hehe. All my relationship dynamics with all the women I have dated or been with have been unique in their own way. They are formed by our unique personalities and how they mesh together. The problem is that when you are relatively new to this (like I once was) and only have knowledge from books (like I once did), you enter into the relationship with a pre-canned expectation of how the people are going to act and behave. This expectation becomes like a noose around your neck instead of a rope guiding you threw the dark swamp to dry land. It constricts the ability for people to "be themselves", because any action that does not fit into the mold of "how things are supposed to be" becomes a sign that "things aren't working out correctly". Shed that expectation. Forget about your conceptions of how this is supposed to be. Stop questioning "Why is this unique individual doing things that I don't perceive as slave-like behavior?". Instead, sit down with your girl and figure out who she is, why she is doing what she does, and what her motive is for doing. And once you figure all that out, then you have a strong ground to begin working to change that behavior if it still really bugs you. However, if it is playful flirting like I think, I do not recommend that, because the problem really rests with you and you allowing something intended to be fun and positive to be taken as negative and destructive. Changing someone's behavior to solve your own issues is rarely ever a good idea.

Master09 -> RE: Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 8:29:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 I'm going to go with... "Is she or is she not ACTUALLY obedient to you?" If she is, then you're getting led on a wild goose chase by your own insecurities. That put pretty much everything into perspective. Despite the way I have looked at things and considering the newness of all of this I am aware that she has been obedient to me so my insecurities are the issue. If I look back she has made many attempts to please me so I have to get the image of my expectations in check. I'll continue to refine myself and my understanding of all this. I just have this underlying desire to control, and I'll admit I would like to have more control of her life something that allows her to submit to me throughout the day, where I can guide her and slowly move in that direction.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 8:36:14 AM)
look, if you don't like the way the slut is behaving, just tell her to cut it the fuck out. if she's obedient, she will, if she isn't she won't. if she does - fucking a! if she doesn't - keep looking, she's not for you. obedience doesn't need to be trained, either she wants to fucking obey or she doesn't.

leadership527 -> RE: Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 8:39:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Master09 I just have this underlying desire to control, and I'll admit I would like to have more control of her life something that allows her to submit to me throughout the day, where I can guide her and slowly move in that direction. There's no need to "admit" that you have a desire to control. Control, in and of itself, is not a bad thing... not in interpersonal relationships and not in the larger world. The key here is "slowly" move in that direction. Just to give you a benchmark, Carol and I were a married couple for 12 years when we started this. We were also both quite a bit older than you which, in general, means "more stable" and "more self-aware" (no, I'm not putting youth down, but I'd like to believe I learned SOMETHING in exchange for the wrinkles). Even so, I'd say it took a year for me to assume anything like "real control" of her and a good 3 years or so for "surrender" to happen. As I said to Carol A LOT in the beginning... There is no prize for getting there first. There is, however, a huge penalty for fucking it up. DD has, once again, said a lot of smart crap in his second post.... notably... shed whatever image you have of M/s. Really... seriously... One of the most respected posters on these boards and a guy who demonstrably makes this work said once... Sometimes I think the worst thing anyone can do for their relationship is apply a label to it then try to live up to that label. Think on that. What would happen if you took the M/s label away from your relationship and just looked at it as "Her and I muddling through life as best we can?"

Master09 -> RE: Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 8:47:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DecadentDesire Changing someone's behavior to solve your own issues is rarely ever a good idea. [/font][/size] That's so true, that's why I was initially thinking of changing my behavior rather then hers as I guess I thought I was the cause of something detrimental, but I see that it's most likely nothing at all and I've been blowing it out of proportions for a few months now. Ill tell you this much. This certainly makes it a lot easier on me.

littlewonder -> RE: Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 8:54:40 AM)
eehh...Master and i joke around like this quite often. If I go over the line he gives me a look or a word and I reign it back. No big deal. But there is never a time when I am disobedient to him on purpose. It sounds to me like she''s simply comfortable in her relationship with you that she feels she can joke around and let her hair down? What could be so wrong about that?? I would take it as a big compliment! How often does someone come along that you feel such a way with? In my experience, not many. So my suggestion is lighten up and enjoy the person you are with. Relax and love each other.

DecadentDesire -> RE: Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 8:57:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Master09 That's so true, that's why I was initially thinking of changing my behavior rather then hers as I guess I thought I was the cause of something detrimental, but I see that it's most likely nothing at all and I've been blowing it out of proportions for a few months now. Ill tell you this much. This certainly makes it a lot easier on me. Good. And if I were to tell you that I have never been in your shoes, I would be lying threw my teeth lol. Getting insecure like this and blowing things out of proportion is, in my experiences, quite normal for your first D/S relationship, particularly when it is done in isolation with only book knowledge as a guide. You simply do not have the proper milestones to gauge or judge success or failure properly or the experience to know how to properly handle every situation. I would recommend finding a local Dominant, someone that you can talk to in person or on the phone and has a long term, successful D/S relationship with a similar dynamic to the one you want, that can mentor you. I had such a person and boy, was I lucky he was there at times to pull my head out of my own ass. And most importantly, talk to your girl. Share your feelings and issues. Don't bottle it up and harp on it out of some fear that it will make you look "less dominant". If you can not work past these things together as a couple, it won't work out in the long run.

Master09 -> RE: Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 9:08:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 One of the most respected posters on these boards and a guy who demonstrably makes this work said once... Sometimes I think the worst thing anyone can do for their relationship is apply a label to it then try to live up to that label. Think on that. What would happen if you took the M/s label away from your relationship and just looked at it as "Her and I muddling through life as best we can?" I just never really thought about it that way. It feels much more natural once all labels are tossed out along with all of it's associations. That really is what I have been doing for some time, associating myself, aspiring to that label. At some point it felt natural and then suddenly when I realized I was invested in the relationship I started looking at everything closely, where I stand, where she stands, how am I doing, do I really have this down, what am I missing. All this to embody an image of the ideal M/s relationship and to feel like I'm not living up to it yet.

leadership527 -> RE: Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 9:31:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Master09 I just never really thought about it that way. It feels much more natural once all labels are tossed out along with all of it's associations. yeah, doesn't it though? There's a reason I reverted back to the labels of "husband" and "wife". The largest stated reason is "there are too many rules attached to the master/slave labels." Don't get me wrong. I totally understand and sympathize with your position. When I was new to all this (only a few years ago) I also needed some sort of sign posts. In the beginning, I chose the BDSM labels... just like you. But at some point I got my feet under me solidly and so tossed away the labels. I personally exchanged them for "Some posters on these boards who were evidently succeeding at the thing I wanted to do." They became my new guiding lights. Then, when I covered all the useful ground I could with that, it was time to just branch off into "whatever works for Carol and I." In the end, am I a "master"? I don't think so. That term implies a lot of BDSM colour that just doesn't exist in our marriage. See my quote in my signature about "enloving" Carol. Is she a "slave"? Again, I don't think so. Carol has no desire to be "a slave". She could not care less about anything BDSM-ish. She has no "slave's fire burning in her belly." She just wants to make the guy she loves as happy as she can manage. Probably the best way to look at us is just as a dominant personality and a submissive one who love each other a great deal. We both seek to commit ourselves fully to our marriage. The only real difference is in how that is done. I do it by being a responsible owner for her and making sure that my leadership accomplishes her ends. Again, there's a reason why I gladly take the title "service dominant". She commits herself fully to the marriage by giving herself to it/me. So we each bring the tools at our disposal to the table with a mutual goal of making our love affair all that it can be. I make the decisions... but her thoughts, opinions, and beliefs count just as much as mine do when I'm forming the "best composite way" in my mind. So before the decision is made both of our thoughts are equally valid. After the decision is made, one or both of us changes as required to conform to the decision. But we are both obligated to obey the dictates of "US". It just happens to be me who figures out what "US" needs and wants. That is what works for us. It is very definitely NOT very BDSM-ey. It is, however, a structure which faithfully takes into account the actual two participants in the relationship. Because of that, makes a comfy place for those two individuals. This is why I never have to "put Carol in her place." The place I've crafted for her actually IS her place and so she just gravitates there all by herself. I took the parts of the BDSM M/s meme that worked for us and applied them (namely, the authority dynamic). I jettisoned the rest as "not relevant to us". The fact that I'm "not a true BDSM master" is really completely irrelevant to our actual life state. We are "happy". OK, I think this horse has been beaten into the ground :) Good luck to you and yours. :)

DecadentDesire -> RE: Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 10:16:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 OK, I think this horse has been beaten into the ground :) Good luck to you and yours. :) I couldn't think of a better post then above to land the final blow.

DesFIP -> RE: Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 10:26:02 AM)
She enjoys playful banter. She even enjoys giving you an opening to display your dominance, a chance to put her back in her place. Something you couldn't do if she was already there, btw. If you don't want a partner who is playful, who still needs to control a lot of her life on her own because you folks are a ldr relationship, a partner who needs her dominant to put her back in her place when she gives him such an opening - then maybe you need to consider how compatible you really are. What you describe as bratty and disrespectful I see as insecure and giving you an opportunity to display your dominance. If you aren't the kind of partner who can identify that and then do that with enjoyment, then maybe you should find someone who doesn't do this and she should find someone who fits her better.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 11:21:52 AM)
quote: I couldn't think of a better post then above to land the final blow. no fucking surprise there. [:D]

SailingBum -> RE: Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 12:14:16 PM)
I couldn't read the entire post. Suffice to say this is real simple shit. Either your in charge or not. The fact that she is playful and teases you has no bearing on you being the boss man. As long as she knows her place that is what's important. BadOne

BitaTruble -> RE: Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 12:29:48 PM)
quote: So maybe she feels she has some control over some of the decision making, and the way that things have progressed has led the both of us feeling like authority in the relationship is shared on 70/30 or 60/40 basis and respect has not been properly established in a way that would allow a transition to a absolute M/s relationship. If that is the case then anyone who has encountered these similar issues and knows where I'm coming from I want to ask what are some things I can do to reestablish the level of respect and authority in a way that allows the slave to transition smoothly without the belief that she has done something wrong or that I have overlooked this behavior pattern of hers. I know that the fault lies with myself, as I caught the behavior early and addressed it but instead decided to allow it because I did believe at the time that it was harmless but I feel there is a good opportunity to fix this now, I know she is willing to change for me I just want to make sure I help her make the change effectively rather then run into an unwanted resistance. Well, don't go throwing out the baby with the bath water. You hooked up with her because you liked who she was, right.. and she is still that person so trying to change her rather than tweak her behavior is only going to cause something to get bent. If you work on your consistancy, she will most likely fall into the line you establish. That's on you, dude.. not her. You want the reins, take them and control them. That's your job. If she thinks she's being entertaining rather than annoying, then it's up to you to let her know the difference. Michael has a 42 minute button pushing limit. I know that for 42 minutes, I can poke, tickle, be a wise-ass etc., before that turns from cute to annoying. Once in a while, on an off day, he only goes 38 mins.. those days I pay for my mouth, but it's all good. I knew the risk when I took on the job. "Enough" out of his mouth is all it takes to turn me from entertaining slutling to obedient slave. If that "enough" word didn't work, then he would probably consider me not as an entertaining little slutling but an obnoxious, disobedient brat and that's not at all the person with whom he wants to deal.. nor is it the person I want to be. I'd say let her entertain you to a point, but try to be as consistant as you can within the set and allow her to be the woman who attracted you in the first place without putting out her spark with a firehose. Good luck

BKSir -> RE: Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 12:37:55 PM)
Sounds to me like she's playfully challenging you to take her over your knee and give her a sound, yet playful spanking.

NuevaVida -> RE: Playful Disobedience (8/3/2011 12:47:49 PM)
One of the things I really love in my relationship is the ability to goof around and tease and be my happy playful self. If that were stifled, some of the joy I feel would be depleted. That said, I also don't want to annoy him so I read him to determine when I can see he's becoming unamused. That ability to read him is a work in progress though, and I still miss a beat sometimes - and we're over two years in. 7 months is still so new, especially if you have limited time together. You're still learning each other and need room to do so. Now when I misread, I get a look, or a "Settle down now" and I knock it off, grateful not only for the ability to be a goofball for a bit, but also for him getting me back where he wants me. You've gotten some great feedback here, and I'll just add that patience - with yourself as well as with her - will go a long way.

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