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ORIGINAL: Arpig

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To be honest in those cases I'm for martial law, they want to loot and riot - let them have a war, tear gas and water hoses in, rubber pellets, let them have it, common criminals.

That, in my assessment is exactly what the "politicals" want. They are trying to provoke just such a crackdown.

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ORIGINAL: popularDemand

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ORIGINAL: Arpig

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To be honest in those cases I'm for martial law, they want to loot and riot - let them have a war, tear gas and water hoses in, rubber pellets, let them have it, common criminals.

That, in my assessment is exactly what the "politicals" want. They are trying to provoke just such a crackdown.

Who, in your "assessment" are the "politicals"?

pD

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ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

you use the tools you're given. angry people are a tool. and how the fuck would you know who is involved? are they resting up at your farm? have you been in touch with any of the rioters?

i didn't think so, look i think you're a swell babe and i really like you, but your a fucking toff, you're a snob and you have absolutely fuck all understanding of the people out on those streets. you don't know who they are, how they live, what their hopes or dreams or disappointments are. you have no clue why they are doing what they are doing, or who is behind the violence or why.

i do.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
I disagree.  If people don't speak up about what they think is wrong-doing, then what? 

In the case of these riots: then, nothing. It won't make the slightest bit of difference. Bloke on the dole sees broken shop-window, huge flatscreen TV behind it, police doing nothing - he'll take it. I mean, really. Would he even take any notice of a man standing next to him, telling him about morals - never mind us, here, on this forum, or some shrill-voiced, anteater-faced, public school, old dragon of Home Secretary who he's never heard about because his regular newspaper is only interested in feeding him stories about bonking celebrities with big tits?

I really, *really* don't think these rioters give a flying rat's arse whether the rest of us find their actions morally justifiable, or politically-strategically coherent, or not. I do think it's time we moved on from such tired old moral debates.

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ORIGINAL: Arpig

The various groups who are trying to exploit the tension. the one's who organize the mobs. I'm sorry, but they aren't random. Somebody is coordinating things. Well, not some ONE, but there are people trying to coordinate things, trying to keep up the pressure and spread the unrest. I wouldn't be surprised if at least some from nearly every extremist political flavour weren't involved at some time or other over the last few days.

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ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

To be honest in those cases I'm for martial law, they want to loot and riot - let them have a war, tear gas and water hoses in, rubber pellets, let them have it, common criminals.

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ORIGINAL: frazzle

In answer to VC.
No i havent spoke to any of the morons, not the sort of people i associate with.
If you seriously believe that those in Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Bristol etc are doing this because of some dead gang member in Tottenham, you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

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And what would they gain from that apart from injuries?

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ORIGINAL: Arpig

The various groups who are trying to exploit the tension. the one's who organize the mobs. I'm sorry, but they aren't random. Somebody is coordinating things. Well, not some ONE, but there are people trying to coordinate things, trying to keep up the pressure and spread the unrest. I wouldn't be surprised if at least some from nearly every extremist political flavour weren't involved at some time or other over the last few days.

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if they want to have a voice, they can go on TV and talk about the issues, form parties and all that...

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ORIGINAL: Arpig

For example, the following from the telegraph's web page:
In Birmingham, the mob split into two groups, using the network of side streets and alleyways to evade police. They appeared to know exactly where to go and where to regroup, hinting that some of their action was co-ordinated today.

Coordinated by who? Why?

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ORIGINAL: Arpig

For example, the following from the telegraph's web page:
In Birmingham, the mob split into two groups, using the network of side streets and alleyways to evade police. They appeared to know exactly where to go and where to regroup, hinting that some of their action was co-ordinated today.

Coordinated by who? Why?

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ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
I wasn't answering with regard to only the rioters.  For me it's a fundamental principle - do we speak up when we think there is wrong doing, or do we close our doors and watch sitcoms on TV? 

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ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Except that I didn't say that "nobody looting would have heard of him."  What I said was "I'll bet there are plenty of people breaking store windows today who never even heard of that guy."

You understand the distinction, right?  And I would still take that bet.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

To be honest in those cases I'm for martial law, they want to loot and riot - let them have a war, tear gas and water hoses in, rubber pellets, let them have it, common criminals.

Lady C, none of that applies. It couldn't work. Those strategies, those weapons . . . they're designed for organised actions by organised groups - marches, mass-meetings, and so forth. It takes too long to deploy police with armed rounds - even if they have the trained coppers to do that, which they don't. It takes even longer to deploy water-cannons. Those instruments can't match huge bunches of kids who can disperse in minutes, to riot elsewhere, if they want to. We just don't have the set-up here to counter riots of this nature. Not even the ex-police commanders in Northern Ireland know what the hell to do here.