RE: Vote

RE: Vote (Full Version)

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LanceHughes -> RE: Vote (8/13/2011 7:16:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or "If you don't vote, you abdicate your right to complain about the results. " THAT IS INCORRECT. PERIOD. T^T^T Agreed. Voters and non-voters never "abdicate the right to complain." Anybody can complain about the results whether they voted or not. The original line is a fine example of the "Error of the Converse." What TheHeritic (and so many others that say this line) could shorten it to say "If you haven't voted, don't complain." V = voted; ~V = not voted C = content with results; ~C = not content (i.e. complaining) The statement of "If you haven't voted, don't complain," translates to logic notation as: ~V => ~C Now we take the contrapositive (which, if the original statement was correct, yields a correct statment.) If the statement above is true, the contrapositive will also be true. C => V So translating back, "If you are complaining, then you voted." As Termy points out "FALSE" The main thing wrong with this statement is that those that are complaining, may or may not have voted. =========== What's the "logically correct" wa y of saying this sentiment? We want to say "Voters are allowed to complain, AND non-voters are not." ( V => C ) ^ ( ~V => ~C) As we just saw, ( ~V => ~C) is the same as C => V That gives us ( V => C ) ^ (C => V) and re-writing that, we have V <=> C In English, "If you voted, complain. If you didn't vote, don't complain." And now we see what that "abdicate your right" is all about. We ALL must take more responsibility for our actions. "Abdicate your right"? WhereTF did that come from? It's like an automatic switch got turned..... bleah. How 'bout short and sweet: Didn't vote? I ain't listenin', fool.

LanceHughes -> RE: Vote (8/13/2011 7:21:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD quote: ORIGINAL: LanceHughes quote: ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD To clarify what I understand spoiling to mean...essentially ruining it, say marking off all candidates or making it a non-countable. Of course this can only apply to paper ballots. I wonder if there is a way to ruin a computerized ballot. (I've never voted in that manner.) You do bring up another avenue though...that of writing in a candidate. So I would add that to the question too. As an election judge of 20+ years, I can answer your "spoiled ballot" question. The entire ballot is not counted. To put a fine point on it: Spoiling a ballot is equivalent to not voting. Thus, your original question about not voting doesn't need expansion into spoiling a ballot.... and nobody cares, you're not going to be reported, no tally is even kept of spoiled ballots. Along those lines, pooping on your income tax form has no effect on the IRS. Mail openers have gloves and if such a form comes in (and they do) the form is "cleaned" as best it can and it is then laminated in plastic and is proccesed just like any other form. All you've done is pissed off - well, sort of - the IRS worker that has to deal with your crap - ahhh, now we've got the right pun! Are you reported? Nope. All you've actually done is raise the cost of processing forms. Guess who pays that increase in cost. Holy wow. I guess I'm naive! I had no idea people did such childish things to their tax forms!! It's too bad on the spoiling ballot thing not being counted. I have wondered if an election were held and a fairly sizable percentage of the "voters" opted to spoil their ballots, if that would gain anyone's attention. The problem is that the "number of voters" is the numbers of valid ballots received. So there's no definition of "percentage," much less "fairly sizable percentage."

LanceHughes -> RE: Vote (8/13/2011 7:25:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or <snipped> And tell me how the fuck you write in a candidate on an electronic voting machine. <snipped> Simple. You type the write-in's name using a keyboard.

tj444 -> RE: Vote (8/13/2011 7:32:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LanceHughes quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or "If you don't vote, you abdicate your right to complain about the results. " THAT IS INCORRECT. PERIOD. T^T^T Agreed. Voters and non-voters never "abdicate the right to complain." Anybody can complain about the results whether they voted or not. well,.. ummm... [8\|] .. I prefer not to call what I do as "complaining". I am simply "voicing my opinion" and to me there is a big difference. [;)] I might voice my opinion either in the negative or the positive, and complaining is just complaining, its all negative (& whiney too). "I like that Harper in Canada now has a majority govt." That statement is voicing my opinion in the positive. [:)] I also dont need to be a citizen of a country to voice my opinion. I am free to voice my opinions on the US, the UK, Germany, India, etc etc, sometimes my opinions are positive, sometimes negative. I dont vote in any of those countries but i can still have my opinions. Its not gonna change a damn thing but until the govts of the world can give everyone a labotomy en masse, I will always have my opinions... [:D]

servantforuse -> RE: Vote (8/13/2011 7:36:27 PM)
I always vote. Not only in national and state elections, but in all local elections as well such as our village trustees and school board. I'm not always happy with the results but do my part to have my say..

Anaxagoras -> RE: Vote (8/13/2011 7:47:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras I would like to know if anyone has literally voted with their feet? Only in relationships and employment. When it comes to my country, I'll vote with my voice and ultimately, every bullet I can scrounge, first. Termy might have a few bullets to spare! [;)] Just found this online for Ms. D. [8D] [image]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zH35WO_toVg/S87OR9ahbpI/AAAAAAAAAUc/3DoMR5V9Plw/s1600/voting+with+your+feet.jpg[/image]

Termyn8or -> RE: Vote (8/13/2011 8:08:25 PM)
You fucking teasing us Anax ? You know gaddamn well we never wanted electronic voting here. Keep it up and a group of us from Cleveland (that's where all the trouble really starts), Illinois, and Oregon, we will wipe out your puny country without our government even knowing it. LOL T^T

Anaxagoras -> RE: Vote (8/13/2011 9:13:40 PM)
Apologies for any further disruption to the thread but I would like to offer a big "fuck you" to Termy for his fiftieth! [:D] I know he'll appreciate it, bless his tin-foil hat! quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or You fucking teasing us Anax ? You know gaddamn well we never wanted electronic voting here. Keep it up and a group of us from Cleveland (that's where all the trouble really starts), Illinois, and Oregon, we will wipe out your puny country without our government even knowing it. LOL LOL Termy, I'm not sure why you take issue over points I haven't even made but a few gun toters from Cleveland are welcome to visit anytime... as long as you lot don't come crying to me in any eventuality. You're spoilt for choice especially with Northern Ireland. I suggest you try a place like the Falls Road first where the people are sure to give you very little resistance! [:D] Bets could be placed to see which community would send you guys home first. [:)] quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or "I would like to know if anyone has literally voted with their feet? " You just don't fucking know. With these controlled elections here I am done with this shit, and after a bit of convo with dude from Norway and some more research, I think I would like to vote over to there. I think I can deal with the fact that their govenment is religion based, but I am in doubt as to if I can bring anything meaningful there. I don't care about all these dregs you all haul around the fucking world, I DON'T WANT TO BE ALLOWED, I WANT TO BE WANTED. I will not be a refugee. I really don't know if I have enough to offer. That is the only thing stopping me now. If Ms. D doesn't mind me going off topic for a minute I would like to offer Termy a friendly bit of advice. Try to make some efffort to enjoy yourself. Who knows, you might just end up being happy!! After all you're not living in a war zone, e.g. the London riots were like a quiet weekend in Northern Ireland at one stage. Hearing some people bitch and moan about the US, its a wonder that so many around the world want to go there. Who knows, maybe it isn't really all that bad! Now what a shocker that would be!! [:D]

DeviantlyD -> RE: Vote (8/13/2011 11:22:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras I would like to know if anyone has literally voted with their feet? Only in relationships and employment. When it comes to my country, I'll vote with my voice and ultimately, every bullet I can scrounge, first. Termy might have a few bullets to spare! [;)] Just found this online for Ms. D. [8D] [image]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zH35WO_toVg/S87OR9ahbpI/AAAAAAAAAUc/3DoMR5V9Plw/s1600/voting+with+your+feet.jpg[/image] LOL Well, I guess you answered your own question now, didn't you? :P

rulemylife -> RE: Vote (8/14/2011 1:04:17 AM)
Of course I vote. Why would I spend all this time on a political forum if I didn't participate in the process?

DeviantlyD -> RE: Vote (8/14/2011 1:10:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Of course I vote. Why would I spend all this time on a political forum if I didn't participate in the process? Simply to pontificate, perhaps. I'm not saying you, but possibly a participant in this forum.

StrangerThan -> RE: Vote (8/14/2011 4:40:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD Do you vote? If not, why not? Would you consider spoiling a ballot to be an expression of protest or more like a waste of time? It will be interesting to see the responses. And while I know this particular forum tends to deviate from the initial topic, digressing into personal jabs at one's particular political viewpoint, I will still make the request of respondents to try to avoid this. ;) Yes, I vote most of the time, though will not take the time to do so if I don't know the candidates for a particular office. I think there's another type of spoilage to consider, that being voting in what you consider the opponent's primaries in hopes of pushing a secondary candidate to higher status. That is what I thought you meant when I read it as I can't imagine taking the time to stand in line, vote, and essentially negate myself. In either case however, no, I'd not attempt to spoil a vote or my vote.

TheHeretic -> RE: Vote (8/14/2011 7:00:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LanceHughes Voters and non-voters never "abdicate the right to complain." Anybody can complain about the results whether they voted or not. The original line is a fine example of the "Error of the Converse." What TheHeritic (and so many others that say this line) could shorten it to say "If you haven't voted, don't complain." V = voted; ~V = not voted C = content with results; ~C = not content (i.e. complaining) The statement of "If you haven't voted, don't complain," translates to logic notation as: ~V => ~C Now we take the contrapositive (which, if the original statement was correct, yields a correct statment.) If the statement above is true, the contrapositive will also be true. C => V So translating back, "If you are complaining, then you voted." As Termy points out "FALSE" The main thing wrong with this statement is that those that are complaining, may or may not have voted. =========== What's the "logically correct" wa y of saying this sentiment? We want to say "Voters are allowed to complain, AND non-voters are not." ( V => C ) ^ ( ~V => ~C) As we just saw, ( ~V => ~C) is the same as C => V That gives us ( V => C ) ^ (C => V) and re-writing that, we have V <=> C In English, "If you voted, complain. If you didn't vote, don't complain." And now we see what that "abdicate your right" is all about. We ALL must take more responsibility for our actions. "Abdicate your right"? WhereTF did that come from? It's like an automatic switch got turned..... bleah. How 'bout short and sweet: Didn't vote? I ain't listenin', fool. Wow. What a long and needlessly complicated way to say, "The Heretic is right, but I don't like his particular phrasing." [;)]

DeviantlyD -> RE: Vote (8/14/2011 7:04:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: LanceHughes Voters and non-voters never "abdicate the right to complain." Anybody can complain about the results whether they voted or not. The original line is a fine example of the "Error of the Converse." What TheHeritic (and so many others that say this line) could shorten it to say "If you haven't voted, don't complain." V = voted; ~V = not voted C = content with results; ~C = not content (i.e. complaining) The statement of "If you haven't voted, don't complain," translates to logic notation as: ~V => ~C Now we take the contrapositive (which, if the original statement was correct, yields a correct statment.) If the statement above is true, the contrapositive will also be true. C => V So translating back, "If you are complaining, then you voted." As Termy points out "FALSE" The main thing wrong with this statement is that those that are complaining, may or may not have voted. =========== What's the "logically correct" wa y of saying this sentiment? We want to say "Voters are allowed to complain, AND non-voters are not." ( V => C ) ^ ( ~V => ~C) As we just saw, ( ~V => ~C) is the same as C => V That gives us ( V => C ) ^ (C => V) and re-writing that, we have V <=> C In English, "If you voted, complain. If you didn't vote, don't complain." And now we see what that "abdicate your right" is all about. We ALL must take more responsibility for our actions. "Abdicate your right"? WhereTF did that come from? It's like an automatic switch got turned..... bleah. How 'bout short and sweet: Didn't vote? I ain't listenin', fool. Wow. What a long and needlessly complicated way to say, "The Heretic is right, but I don't like his particular phrasing." [;)] I think he's a closet math geek and he can't help when it manifests itself in these ways. ;)

Termyn8or -> RE: Vote (8/14/2011 12:06:55 PM)
UFR " think he's a closet math geek and he can't help when it manifests itself in these ways. ;)" I'm sure of it :-) "You're spoilt for choice especially with Northern Ireland." Fukum. And BTW did you know that the company that got the first contracts to supply voting machines and software in the US was based in - IRELAND ! ? That means you have more of a chance to affect our politics than we do. I been on this shit for a long time, I was there when those stray reports "leaked out" about problems with the voting machines. I was there, I read, I heard. You people think I'm nuts, but........ You're fucking RIGHT ! If you knew what I know you would be in an asylum or some shit. There is no way out. I HAVE figured it out, vote with dollars. REFUSE to spend and shut the ogliarchy down. That is the only fucking way. In fact my neighbor is growing potatoes ! They know what's going on. More on them later. T^T

Anaxagoras -> RE: Vote (8/14/2011 3:09:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or "You're spoilt for choice especially with Northern Ireland." Fukum. And BTW did you know that the company that got the first contracts to supply voting machines and software in the US was based in - IRELAND ! ? That means you have more of a chance to affect our politics than we do. What the fuck is this shit Termy? I never mentioned voting machines, and there is more than one fucking company in Ireland. A private fucking company of which there are thousands here is not run collectively by the people. I actually don't favour electronic voting, there should be a physical record. BTW the project for e-voting was thrown out in Ireland after it was shown they could be tampered with. quote: You're fucking RIGHT ! If you knew what I know you would be in an asylum or some shit. There is no way out. I HAVE figured it out, vote with dollars. REFUSE to spend and shut the ogliarchy down. That is the only fucking way. In fact my neighbor is growing potatoes ! They know what's going on. Great your friend grows his own, what a fucking radical! [8\|] All over the place people grow their own or go to farmers markets.

Aneirin -> RE: Vote (8/17/2011 10:24:17 AM)
I believe it should be made compulsory to vote or pay a hefty fine and with that an extra box on the ballot paper saying ; None of the above That way the public mood is recorded not just those that could be bothered voting. But I vote sometimes, although in our country there is never anyone particularly inspirational to lead, so I tend to vote for independants after I have heard them, or failing that the greens. I vote away from thge main parties because they are in effect all the same; labour, new labour, tory, same old bullshit and I am fed up to the back teeth of my country seesawing all the time, boom and bust ad finitum. So, if it is change we all want, why the fuck do people vote for the crap that always gets in or not bothering in voting, for change won't happen that way. For change to happen, change has to be enabled at the polls. But; poor = labour rich= conservative. So conservative are in power, that means we are predominantly rich, or is it the crap first past the post system that favours the main parties or the disillusioned not bothering in voting, of the later, it is about half the voting population.

BitaTruble -> RE: Vote (8/17/2011 10:48:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD Do you vote? If not, why not? Would you consider spoiling a ballot to be an expression of protest or more like a waste of time? Yes, I vote (as does Michael). I have also helped candidates stump, have manned stations, knocked on doors, helped write initiatives, donated and have been very involved in local/state politics both to recall and/or get folks elected to office. When I am out of the country I always make sure to get my mail-in ballot sent in well ahead of time. I have never considered spoiling a ballot nor would I actually do so as a means of protest. My vote is my means of protest and always has been.

Icarys -> RE: Vote (8/17/2011 10:53:50 AM)
quote: Do you vote? If not, why not? Would you consider spoiling a ballot to be an expression of protest or more like a waste of time? Yes. It's your right, use it. The actual act of exercising them is never a bad thing. Waste of time? I would have said yes and have for 20 plus years but there is hope on the horizon.

Marc2b -> RE: Vote (8/17/2011 11:20:33 AM)
Yes I vote. The way I look at it… I may only be one voice in a multitude, but it is my voice, damn it. I have never spoiled a ballot but I have made protest votes either by voting for a fringe candidate (in the last governor’s election I vote for that “the rent is too damned high,” guy) or by writing in myself. The latter has the added bonus of allowing me to go around bragging, “I’ve gotten a vote for President of the United States… have you?” Heretic said: quote: If you don't vote, you abdicate your right to complain about the results. I agree with you in the moral sense, but not in the literal sense. Freedom of speech is not contingent on voting.

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