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Demosclerosis? - 8/18/2011 12:50:03 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		Interesting article:

Extracts:

[Direct democracies] ... James Madison wrote, "have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths." By empowering people no matter how lacking in virtue, character, or knowledge, democracy gives greater scope to their irrational appetites, leaving them vulnerable to factional strife or the demagogue who promises them the gratification of their desires at the expense of freedom and political order.

Then democracy becomes "ochlocracy," a "mob rule" that descends into tyranny: "For the mob," Polybius writes, "habituated to feed at the expense of others, and to have its hopes of a livelihood in the property of its neighbors, as soon as it has got a leader sufficiently ambitious and daring, being excluded by poverty from the sweets of civil honors, produces a reign of mere violence. Then come tumultuous assemblies, massacres, banishments, redivisions of land; until, after losing all trace of civilization, it has once more found a master and a despot."

...

The clash of numerous competing factional interests as they enrich themselves via such government transfers of wealth has led to what journalist Jonathon Rauch in 1994 called "demosclerosis."

"By definition," Rauch explains, "the government's power comes from its ability to reassign resources, whether by taxing, spending, regulating, or simply passing laws. But that very ability energizes countless investors and entrepreneurs and ordinary Americans to go digging for gold by lobbying government. In time, a whole industry––large, sophisticated, professionalized, and self-serving––emerges and then assumes a life of its own. This industry is a drain on the productive economy, and there appears to be no natural limit to its growth. As it grows, the steady accumulation of subsidies and benefits, each defended in perpetuity by a professional interest group, calcifies government. Government loses its capacity to experiment and so becomes more and more prone to failure."

Demosclerosis is the modern expression of the dangers of direct democracy that the founders feared.

An interesting read, I think.  Worthy of discussion.

Does the US have a problem with "demosclerosis"?
Firm



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RE: Demosclerosis? - 8/18/2011 1:25:24 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline 		You know what I fear is conservatives who have no concept of human decency.

My father spent his life suffering from multiple sclerosis.

So this little gem of an article you posted is more than somewhat offensive.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: Demosclerosis? - 8/18/2011 2:13:37 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You know what I fear is conservatives who have no concept of human decency.

My father spent his life suffering from multiple sclerosis.

So this little gem of an article you posted is more than somewhat offensive.

Just wait, limpwrist will claim he does not agree with the article just that he found it "interesting."

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Demosclerosis? - 8/18/2011 2:20:02 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You know what I fear is conservatives who have no concept of human decency.

My father spent his life suffering from multiple sclerosis.

So this little gem of an article you posted is more than somewhat offensive.

Just wait, limpwrist will claim he does not agree with the article just that he found it "interesting."


Because rml finds it offensive? bwahahahaha

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RE: Demosclerosis? - 8/18/2011 2:22:43 PM   
flcouple2009


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Just wait, limpwrist will claim he does not agree with the article just that he found it "interesting."


When in truth the only articles he finds "interesting" are the ones he agrees with.

He thinks we're all too dumb to catch things like that 


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RE: Demosclerosis? - 8/18/2011 2:32:00 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You know what I fear is conservatives who have no concept of human decency.

My father spent his life suffering from multiple sclerosis.

So this little gem of an article you posted is more than somewhat offensive.

Just wait, limpwrist will claim he does not agree with the article just that he found it "interesting."


Because rml finds it offensive? bwahahahaha


Thank you for demonstrating my point.

Absolutely no concept of human decency.

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RE: Demosclerosis? - 8/18/2011 2:40:18 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You know what I fear is conservatives who have no concept of human decency.

My father spent his life suffering from multiple sclerosis.

So this little gem of an article you posted is more than somewhat offensive.

Just wait, limpwrist will claim he does not agree with the article just that he found it "interesting."


Because rml finds it offensive? bwahahahaha


Thank you for demonstrating my point.

Absolutely no concept of human decency.



It hasnt the slightest thing to do with "human decency". Hint: it didnt have fuck all to do with multiple sclerosis or your father. Your faux indignation would be even more ridiculous if it were real.

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RE: Demosclerosis? - 8/18/2011 2:51:30 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
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Status: offline 		Quite.

The association is only percieved.

T^T

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RE: Demosclerosis? - 8/18/2011 4:15:27 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You know what I fear is conservatives who have no concept of human decency.

My father spent his life suffering from multiple sclerosis.

So this little gem of an article you posted is more than somewhat offensive.

"Demosclerosis" is a riff off of "arteriosclerosis, arteriolosclerosis, and atherosclerosis", not "multiple sclerosis".

More I could say, but I'll restrain myself, in the interest of perhaps actually having a real discussion.

Firm

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RE: Demosclerosis? - 8/18/2011 4:19:51 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You know what I fear is conservatives who have no concept of human decency.

My father spent his life suffering from multiple sclerosis.

So this little gem of an article you posted is more than somewhat offensive.

"Demosclerosis" is a riff off of "arteriosclerosis, arteriolosclerosis, and atherosclerosis", not "multiple sclerosis".

More I could say, but I'll restrain myself, in the interest of perhaps actually having a real discussion.

Firm


Actually its even more general than that, and the only relationship to anything medical is a shared latin/greek root. "Political sclerosis" has been a term in use for years, indicating rigidity and an inability to change things. He just specified it as "Demosclerosis" because of his focus on entitlements.

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and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: Demosclerosis? - 8/18/2011 4:41:08 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You know what I fear is conservatives who have no concept of human decency.

My father spent his life suffering from multiple sclerosis.

So this little gem of an article you posted is more than somewhat offensive.

"Demosclerosis" is a riff off of "arteriosclerosis, arteriolosclerosis, and atherosclerosis", not "multiple sclerosis".

More I could say, but I'll restrain myself, in the interest of perhaps actually having a real discussion.


Actually its even more general than that, and the only relationship to anything medical is a shared latin/greek root. "Political sclerosis" has been a term in use for years, indicating rigidity and an inability to change things. He just specified it as "Demosclerosis" because of his focus on entitlements.

Roger that.  It's just that rml doesn't wish to enter into a conversation about it.  He wishes only to derail.

It's a "hardening of the arteries" of democracy.

Firm


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RE: Demosclerosis? - 8/18/2011 5:30:30 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Well Firm, I'll bite.

I think Rauch flunked history. Madison's elitism might have something to do with his sanctimoniousness regarding slaves- while he theoretically didn't like the institution, he managed to avoid manumitting his own.

The idea that lobbyists are more powerful now than ever disregards the gilded age over a century ago, where senators were not referred to by state, but rather which corporation owned them- such as the Senator from DuPont. the Senator from Bethlehem Steel, etc. In this case, the lobbyists were so successful, the senator could be counted upon to vote reliably on an issue.

That we're returning to the two tiered economy of the gilded age, and the economic backwardness of that time would be a far more accurate assessment of the increased importance of lobbying in today's dysfunctional political climate.

Sam

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RE: Demosclerosis? - 8/18/2011 5:47:59 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		the problem is that the middle class is dramatically shrinking. Mob mentality might ensue when once proud people are forced to work minimum wage or part time low paying jobs.

The American dream has now passed on to the Indian and Chinese dream. this has little to do with politicians but more with capitalism and the pursuit of corporate profits, which in themselves are far from evil things.

"...They're closing down the textile mill 'cross the railroad tracks. Foreman says, these jobs are going, boys, and they ain't coming back, to your hometown..."


BRRRRRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCE!!!!

< Message edited by domiguy -- 8/18/2011 5:48:31 PM >

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RE: Demosclerosis? - 8/18/2011 6:34:02 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

You know what I fear is conservatives who have no concept of human decency.

My father spent his life suffering from multiple sclerosis.

So this little gem of an article you posted is more than somewhat offensive.



And this has nothing to do with that.  Quit whining.


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RE: Demosclerosis? - 8/18/2011 7:43:48 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		That was a good read, Firm.  Thanks.

(Now would be the time for those with special sensitivities to put on their big girl panties, or choose not to read further, because I like the thread title.)





I don't think I've heard the term, "demosclerosis," before.  What an excellent word for visualization.  Something that once stood straight and proud, slowly bent and twisted into something far less than it was meant to be.

April 26th, 1992,
there was a riot on the streets,
tell me where were you?
You were sittin' home watchin' your TV,
while I was paticipatin' in some anarchy.

First spot we hit it was my liqour store.
I finally got all that alcohol I can't afford.
With red lights flashin' time to retire,
And then we turned that liquor store into a structure fire.

Next stop we hit it was the music shop,
It only took one brick to make that window drop.
Finally we got our own p.a.
Where do you think I got this guitar that you're hearing today?

...
 
When we returned to the pad to unload everything,
It dawned on me that I need new home furnishings.
So once again we filled the van until it was full,
since that day my livin' room's been more comfortable.

Cause everybody in the hood has had it up to here,
It's getting harder and harder and harder each and every year.

Some kids went in a store with thier mother,
I saw her when she came out she was gettin some pampers.

They said it was for the black man,
they said it was for the mexican,
and not for the white man.

But if you look at the streets it wasn't about Rodney King,
It's bout this fucked up situation and these fucked up police.
It's about coming up and staying on top
and screamin' 187 on a mother fuckin' cop.
It's not written on the paper it's on the wall.
National guard??!
Smoke from all around,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-L3D8vKBCM

This really isn't the voice we want getting the reins of government, is it?

(Great bit of angry folk music, though)

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Demosclerosis? - 8/18/2011 7:45:33 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Well Firm, I'll bite.

I think Rauch flunked history. Madison's elitism might have something to do with his sanctimoniousness regarding slaves- while he theoretically didn't like the institution, he managed to avoid manumitting his own.

The idea that lobbyists are more powerful now than ever disregards the gilded age over a century ago, where senators were not referred to by state, but rather which corporation owned them- such as the Senator from DuPont. the Senator from Bethlehem Steel, etc. In this case, the lobbyists were so successful, the senator could be counted upon to vote reliably on an issue.

That we're returning to the two tiered economy of the gilded age, and the economic backwardness of that time would be a far more accurate assessment of the increased importance of lobbying in today's dysfunctional political climate.

Thanks sam.

I think the thrust is more along the lines that there are more "interest groups" and that they have a growing impact on government: not that large, well-connected business have always had influence.

Once a government program has a constituency and that constituency can effectively take away or channel votes to a politician ... the odds of any particular program going away is reduced.

As others see the success, they form their own interest group. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Firm


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RE: Demosclerosis? - 8/18/2011 8:01:26 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:



LIBERALS AREN'T FUNNY, THEY'RE A RIOT!


Good topic Firm!

I was going to link to the "Demonic" thread I started some time ago but apparently the riotous leftist mob destroyed it.




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RE: Demosclerosis? - 8/18/2011 8:25:30 PM   
samboct


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Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Firm

I'm still not sure I buy this idea. Lobbyists have to represent interests with either votes or jobs, otherwise, they don't mean a damn thing to politicians. I've actually been with a group that hired a lobbying firm to help make sure regulations which were not inimical to our fledgling industry weren't passed and met with a few senators and congressmen in DC. So I've had something of a first hand look at the process. Doesn't seem inherently warped or evil to me....Politicians have to balance competing interests- that's how things work in a democracy.

Furthermore, lobbying groups do come and go- seen any lobbyists that say represented carriage drivers at the turn of the previous century lying around these days?

There is paralysis in DC these days, but I think that has more to do with one of the parties failing to govern- effectively throwing a hissy fit since they're not in the White House and doing terrible damage to the country. As a consequence, one of the fallouts is to blame lobbyists, but I think this may be misguided. From my perspective, politics is not an evil game, but there are nasty players. Same can be said for lobbyists. Where I think lobbyists are a problem is when there is no competition.

Look at the energy industry for example. There's a tension between the coal industry and the solar power and wind industry. Coal is of course, the most established, and has a block of states that includes W. Va, PA, and Ky (as well as a few others) while solar and wind is a bit more diffuse. But I'll lay long odds that nationally, wind and solar are far more popular than coal at this point, and as the coal industry continues its slide, the coal lobby will become less forceful. Wind and solar continue to expand- and a chunk of that is taking business away from coal. From my perspective- that's working- but it's a competitive tension. However, since the telco industry is an effective oligopoly- I think that's lobbying that falls into protecting existing business interests from price pressure-where's the competition? Not so useful....

If our government is moribund in terms of creating jobs, I think that falls to the bad shopping done in the previous several decades- as well as the wishful thinking of trying to grow an economy by banking, rather than science and technology. Needless to say, China didn't play that asinine game and is now eating our lunch. But I don't think that should be laid at the foot of lobbying- I blame Greenspan and a R bunch that blindly ignored the history of the Depression- as well as D's who failed to fight them hard enough.


Cheers,

Sam


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RE: Demosclerosis? - 8/18/2011 10:32:26 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		Lobbyists are only whined about by people who can figure out how to get a lobby to represent them. They are no different than PACs, union organized political groups etc, just hired by different groups.

If a politician is unduly influenced by ANY group, including any of the above, then its a problem Eg Obamas payback to the unions. In fact arguably the most powerful lobbyist in the country today is Richard Trumka, who has what amounts to a hotline to the Oval Office.

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to the barking of the dogfox,
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RE: Demosclerosis? - 8/19/2011 6:09:05 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		Sam,

I think you are thinking too narrowly on the subject and translating "constituency" to nothing other than "business lobbying group". I think it is much wider than that.

Firm


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