Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (Full Version)

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kass3 -> Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (5/20/2006 8:11:48 AM)

I'm not sure which forum to put this in so it here, sorry if i got it wrong.

I'm curious as to what you all think of the cilice? It has gained notoriety lately in the book The Da Vinci Code as worn by the character Silas. It's a barbed wire chain worn around the upper thigh for a suggested two hours a day.

For those not familiar with it, it's a religious tool used for what catholics call the 'mortification of the flesh other such mortifications are flagellation and the wearing of hair shirts and is used to gain greater spiritual clarity as well as penance for sins (though I'm no expert, correct me if I'm wrong)

I'm curious as to whether anyone would use this in a erotic/kink setting? Or for any other reason (incuding a religious one, a penance, devotion, algolagnia etc)

What do you think of it's and other 'mortifications of the flesh' Vs self-harm Vs masochism?



juliaoceania -> RE: Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (5/20/2006 8:59:47 AM)

I just finished that book, bought it when I saw it in paperback. I thought about the kinkability of that object. It wouldnt be for me, but I know there are many who have nun/father kinks. I have heard of subs that wanted to be crucified. I am thinking there maybe many that read about the cilice and thought "Where do I get one of these?"...lol



BitaTruble -> RE: Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (5/20/2006 9:46:34 AM)

It's probably more common than one would suppose albeit in other forms. Kali's teeth, tack bras.. they are along the same lines and lots of folks engage in those to have reminders throughout the day of their place in their relationships. We do tend towards embracing and perverting a lot of activities that started out in the religious world just because they fit in so well with S/m and mindfulness of M/s, D/s. Himself will have me wear a hemp rope harness quite often when I'm out and about just because it's itchy and scratchy and it's hard to forget when you're wearing it, exactly who is the one in charge of you.

Celeste



puella -> RE: Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (5/20/2006 10:15:35 AM)

Hello kass,

I just wanted to point a couple of things out about your post.  The cilice was actually a hair shirt which was worn for the practice of mortification of the flesh, not only by Catholics, but by other Christian faiths as well.

The practice of mortification of the flesh can be attributed (in Catholicism, though it has also been a part of other faiths, including Judaism) to the words of St. Paul :  “For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.” (Rom 8:13).  It actually is not something that was worn for penance until somewhere around the 1400s.  Before then it was primarily used by the holy orders as was a means of separating yourself from the earthly body to provide a greater clarity of the divine and to keep out the 'distractions of the flesh'.

To a great extent, the Roman Catholic Church of today is very different than even the church of 50, let alone 500 or more years ago.  Since Vatican Council II, the practice of mortification of the flesh is confined mainly to very specific orders of those who opt for a religious vocation or for the very controversial and not wholly recognized (or approved of) sect, Opus Dei.

In fact, the cilice you speak of is not one that was used except by that order.

The Davinci Code is a great book, I enjoyed it and really loved a lot of the ideas it presented.  Having once been a nun, I was also quite aware of the misinformation it provided about some aspects of the Roman Catholic Church ( there was a lot of factual information too!).  It is a fun, exciting read that makes you go.. hmm now there is something to think about.. but I wouldn't take it all at face value, as the author himself has stated.

I don't mean to get tangential on you here, I just wanted to clear a couple of things up you stated in your post (and you did invite corrections!  ;)  ).  The cilice in that book is not the cilice that was worn by most of the very few catholics who ever practiced motivation of the flesh, that was a hair shirt which caused much itching and discomfort but was not as brutal as that of the one worn by the sort of... fringe sect of Opus Dei which was in the book.  It's just not terribly accurate to equate the vast majority of Roman Catholics (I am no longer a practicing Catholic, btw) with a very radical subset, supported by very few (and some of their wacky antics and practices, which, most of the people I know who are catholic look on as pretty pathetic and having nothing to do with the faith they grew up in... as it is with most radical religions.


As for the idea of self harm and mortifcation in bdsm... I always have maintained that you have to be very very careful in what you practice.. it goes much deeper than the physical wounds and chemical highs that can inspire... fucking with the psyche is a very tricky business, in my opinion.



MistressWolfen -> RE: Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (5/20/2006 10:50:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kass3

It's a barbed wire chain worn around the upper thigh for a suggested two hours a day.


The traditional use of this word refers to a hair shirt from derives from the latin cilicium, a covering made of goat's hair from Cilicia, and very uncomfortable to wear. It is only recently it is used to refer to the metal thigh band worn by some pentinents. The band is not 'barbed wire' as we think of it, but, more blunt wire ends.

quote:


What do you think of it's and other 'mortifications of the flesh' Vs self-harm Vs masochism?


I personally do not equate religious and spiritual practise with masochistic self-harm. I so enjoy scenes with a hierachal religious tone imposed on them, but do not mistake them for, or their locus, as spiritual.



puella -> RE: Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (5/20/2006 11:45:29 AM)

Hello Mistress Wolfen!

Fancy meeting you here. hehe ;)



amayos -> RE: Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (5/20/2006 12:02:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kass3

I'm not sure which forum to put this in so it here, sorry if i got it wrong.

I'm curious as to what you all think of the cilice? It has gained notoriety lately in the book The Da Vinci Code as worn by the character Silas. It's a barbed wire chain worn around the upper thigh for a suggested two hours a day.

For those not familiar with it, it's a religious tool used for what catholics call the 'mortification of the flesh other such mortifications are flagellation and the wearing of hair shirts and is used to gain greater spiritual clarity as well as penance for sins (though I'm no expert, correct me if I'm wrong)

I'm curious as to whether anyone would use this in a erotic/kink setting? Or for any other reason (incuding a religious one, a penance, devotion, algolagnia etc)

What do you think of it's and other 'mortifications of the flesh' Vs self-harm Vs masochism?




Though not a fan of the book (nor the movie, after having just viewed it last eve), I can certainly say the scenes with the movie depiction of Silas were mentally arousing. The "cilice" was indeed interesting, but the artful depiction of his naked self-flogging was even more enjoyable. ;)

As an aside, the paranoid mythology of the Holy Grail and the Knights Templar is something I have without doubt grown tired of—even before Dan Brown's campaign to suck wealth out of the easy target that is Christian scandal.



jamesthehumanrug -> RE: Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (5/20/2006 12:53:41 PM)

greetings cass three
theres nothing i use more than what i wear;
its known in biology as secondary skin;
or in evolution as modified scales;
and in psychology and the volumes of knowledge ;what you wear is :"sexual non-verbal communication"
if you're a bottom, and you wear any such thing ,as you have mentioned;i know you get the point across, without words ,and you are 'selected' ,not unlike a  mating peacock ,when one peacock sees the tail fan(feathers) of another ,and likes the colors; it's mating season!
so i'm sure it's very powerful to wear;hair t shirt or thigh wire....etc etc
and, it's certainly advisable, if, that's your bottom- central- tendancy.
we are attracted also by 'texture' (thinckness or ruffness of a chosen material)which indicates ones' "ACTUAL- SEXUAL ACTIVITY"(depth of sexual activity ;the amount of sexuality and degrees of sensuality)....
so choose your sexual-adornments ;whatever you wear ;very carefully;the results are predictable!



puella -> RE: Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (5/20/2006 1:27:16 PM)

hmmm... jamesthehumanrug...

I really wanted to understand what you were saying but... was unable to... could you sum it up for me?



MistressWolfen -> RE: Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (5/20/2006 1:27:23 PM)

hiya puella, yup I sneak over the fence on occasion. *lol*

*edited..for just woke up from a nap really bad spelling



MistressWolfen -> RE: Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (5/20/2006 1:35:00 PM)

Ditto to what puella said *points up*...I would really like to understand your point on this as well james, but couldn't quite extricate it.



kass3 -> RE: Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (5/21/2006 6:33:48 AM)

Hi,

Thank you MistressWolfen, Puella and everyone else for your thoughtful replies. I did know what the origin of the work 'cilice' was (the hair shirt) but was refering to the one seen in the book as I figured it would seem a bit obscure to refer to a hair shirt when talking about the book and it's use of the cilice. Your comments on its older origin are however very interesting especially from a catholic past as yourself puella (a nun...wow!)

Thank you both for the direction and information, I'm not all together ignorant but it seems my attempt at making my post specific and simplified made me appear so. Also, I couldn't think up any other way to explain it except by describing it as a barbed wire. How would you describe it?

and Jamesthehumanrug...I don't understand, can I have the summary as well?



iliv2servher -> RE: Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (5/21/2006 8:08:18 AM)

I would just like to add that flagellation/mortification of the flesh was/is practiced by Roman Catholics, some Christian sects and Muslems, to "cleanse the soul" and to attain a heightened state of awareness -- or in this case, a feeling of being closer to God.  It's use by Catholics also symbolizes the suffering of Christ. 
 
In terms of brain chemestry, it produces or releases endorphins or endomorphins, which are essentially pain-killers.  With reference to it's religious use, it seems to be a form of meditation and atonement.



mistoferin -> RE: Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (5/21/2006 8:14:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iliv2servher
I would just like to add that flagellation/mortification of the flesh was/is practiced by Roman Catholics


Just to clarify....MOST Catholics do not practice this.



MistressWolfen -> RE: Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (5/21/2006 8:33:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kass3
I'm not all together ignorant but it seems my attempt at making my post specific and simplified made me appear so.

You did not appear ignorant at all kass3, I thought your post was well written and thought provoking.
quote:


... it as a barbed wire. How would you describe it?


I have only seen one (but it did look like the pictures I have seen)
so shall have to use it as a base for the description:
A cilice, as put forward in the novel "The DaVinci Code" is al light weight chain, aproximately 2 inches wide, the links of the chain are fashioned of wire and the tips of each link are bent so that they will press into the flesh of the wearer. They are not sharpened and do not draw blood, but rather press uncomfortably into the flesh and irritate. The cilice is worn by tieing it around the upper thigh with leather strips attached to either end .

The following is a link to the Opus Dei information page.  On it they discuss a little further the 'false' mortification of masochists.

http://www.odan.org/corporal_mortification.htm

*edited to shoo away pesky spelling gremlins



wetrope -> RE: Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (5/21/2006 8:35:06 AM)

The object in question is one of many used by the gnostics, who are responsible for these thots about the people and the church during the 300 - 600 ad..  They were opposed to any pleasure involved with the flesh and used these items to deter such pleasure.    Unless one is open to this type of severe punishment, just for its own sake, then you could use it, however it is subject to infection and should be used very cautiously.



Sinergy -> RE: Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (5/21/2006 8:59:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iliv2servher

I would just like to add that flagellation/mortification of the flesh was/is practiced by Roman Catholics, some Christian sects and Muslems, to "cleanse the soul" and to attain a heightened state of awareness -- or in this case, a feeling of being closer to God.  It's use by Catholics also symbolizes the suffering of Christ. 



There was a period at the end of the Low Middle Ages / start of the High Middle Ages where Christian sects all over Europe became fascinated (it became the rage, per se) with Martyrology.  Christian treatises on the more fascinating people who proved their love of God by wearing hundreds of pounds of chain, flagellated themselves with nettles, locked themselves in tiny boxes, or had the Roman's do mean things to them, could be found.  The great Saints of Christendom who had met their demise in horrible ways were revered as being people had "gone that extra mile" in service to God.

Many religions, not just Christianity and Islam, have rituals designed to attain spiritual heights via mortification of the flesh.  Hindu, Buddhists, etc., all have their own methodology of self punishment for attaining God(s) grace.

quote:


In terms of brain chemestry, it produces or releases endorphins or endomorphins, which are essentially pain-killers.  With reference to it's religious use, it seems to be a form of meditation and atonement.


Endorphins and endomorphins are the substances which bind to neuro-receptors to prevent the brain from being overloaded by pain sensations.  The positive benefit for the perverted types, like us, is that these have similar effects to (they bind to the same neuroreceptors) opiates.  Besides alleviating pain, these are the substances which cause a bottom to "fly."

I had never considered tying up my submissive, spanking her silly in her cheerleader outfit, and then anally violating her to be a religious meditation. 

I will add that to my list of reasons to keep doing it.

bottoms up, or is it down!

Sinergy



RiotGirl -> RE: Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (5/21/2006 12:10:16 PM)

quote:

For those not familiar with it, it's a religious tool used for what catholics call the 'mortification of the flesh other such mortifications are flagellation and the wearing of hair shirts and is used to gain greater spiritual clarity as well as penance for sins (though I'm no expert, correct me if I'm wrong)


ayep sounds interesting.. wouldnt mind trying it out



RiotGirl -> RE: Cilice and Mortification of the Flesh (5/21/2006 12:21:03 PM)

To translate james as best one can:

greetings cass three
he said greetings to you

theres nothing i use more than what i wear;
its known in biology as secondary skin;
or in evolution as modified scales;
saying basically what he uses most is his hair

and in psychology and the volumes of knowledge ;what you wear is :"sexual non-verbal communication"
if you're a bottom, and you wear any such thing ,as you have mentioned;i know you get the point across, without words ,and you are 'selected' ,not unlike a  mating peacock ,when one peacock sees the tail fan(feathers) of another ,and likes the colors; it's mating season!
he's saying that clothes can be sexual non verbal communication and depending on what you are wearing attracts others for possible courtship or sex


so i'm sure it's very powerful to wear;hair t shirt or thigh wire....etc etc
and, it's certainly advisable, if, that's your bottom- central- tendancy.
seems easy enough to understand.  He think its very powerful to wear hair, or the thigh wire and he thinks its a great idea to do so if thats what you are interested in


we are attracted also by 'texture' (thinckness or ruffness of a chosen material)
ppl are attracted to texture.. like clothing texture.. IE satin.. silk.. so on


which indicates ones' "ACTUAL- SEXUAL ACTIVITY"(depth of sexual activity ;the amount of sexuality and degrees of sensuality)....
depending on what you wear.. it describes you sexually.. the amount of sexuality or degress of sensuality

so choose your sexual-adornments ;whatever you wear ;very carefully;the results are predictable!
seems easy enough to understand again.. He's saying choose what you wear carefully cos its obvious what sort of reaction you'll get.  IE wear a mini skirt that practically shows off your vagina dont be suprised if some one thinks your a slut.. or some one is trying to look up your skirt.

Thats what one understood from it.. course it could be wrong..



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