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Submission: Head, Heart & Soul - 5/20/2006 8:55:16 AM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		I originally thought this would be a post only for the male submissives, then went "duh", response from all submissives would be welcome, then did a duh again for everyone I am sure has some awesome thoughts---
 
so I hope I get this scenario(s) correct--
 
The background: I mentor and coach LTR submissives, I don't mentor those that only "play" for the psychological issues are very different (sees LA start to respond..<smiles>) IMHO---one of the key things I work with is the separation of the "perceived" physical manifestations of submission from the HH&S driving factors to focus on the HHS first ( as each of us have different "requirements".
 
Examples: 
 
 "Mistress, i know now that i want to cater to my Mistress, i want to allow Her to take control of me and my life--to make the decisions, to guide me, to use me for her desires--i want to put Her on the pedestal and spend my life devoted to Her...but i am afraid of the strap-on--am i less submissive to Her because that fears me?" 
 
"i know that when i find a Mistress, rimming Her, drinking Her juices is how She will know i am devoted to Her, then She will see my heart and my soul"
 
"Master cannot see my true submission unless i swallow His cum, and i cannot--does this mean i am not submissive?"
 
To Me, I want a submissive to first focus on the inner drivers, the inner motivators for their submission, THEN the "possible" manifestations--for those vary from One to One to One
 
so, I am open to thoughts and opinions? Is the physical manifestation as important as the HH&S?

< Message edited by MHOO314 -- 5/20/2006 8:56:33 AM >

_____________________________

SLUTS: Southern Ladies Under Tremendous Stress...

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RE: Submission: Head, Heart & Soul - 5/20/2006 9:11:54 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		It's a Horse and Cart thing.

To many individuals label a particular action/behavior as Dominant or submissive.  They then proceed to carry out such behaviors hoping that the behavior will cause the Head, Heart & Soul to follow.  This to me is putting the cart ahead of the horse.

I believe the intrinic motivations be they Dominant or submissive in nature will come from the Head, Heart & Soul.  The individual will not need to worry about labelling any particular action/behavior as Dominant or submissive. For they understand that it's their motivation that dictates the nature of their actions.  For Example, oral sex seems to have a stigma of being a submissive act.  However, I seen it confidently expressed by Dominants and submissives alike that the act itself is made Dominant or submissive by the motivations of those involved.  This to me is putting the horse in front of the cart where it belongs.

It is not our actions do not define Dominance or Submission.... It's the Motivations of Actions that do.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to MHOO314)
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RE: Submission: Head, Heart & Soul - 5/20/2006 10:32:58 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		I think both are equally important.  For a long term relationship the right motivations have to be there, so there can be no doubt that is important.  However, those motivations and desires seek expression.  We wish to show how we feel, what we think, etc.  For a submissive, they need to show their submission as much as they need to feel submissive.  They need to be shown they are controlled as much as they feel the need to be controlled.  So the rituals, protocols, and other forms of expression we create are also an important part of the equation.

That is, a submissive feels devotion to a particular dominant.  They are motivated to serve, to please, etc.  That in turn seeks expression in the form of service, rituals, protocols, and other ways of demonstrating their desire and motivation to serve.
A submissives feels a need to be controlled and desires a particular dominant to control them.  That in turn seeks expression in the form of desiring the dominant to create rules and boundaries, to provide structure, discipline, etc.  Again, the motivation seeks expression.

What is also important to remember is that these forms of expression need to be recognized.  Imagine you like someone, so you buy them a nice gift.  You take the time to put some thought into it, you want it to be really nice.  Now imagine that person accepts the gift with hardly a comment, it doesn't appear to mean much to them.  Most would be offended, hurt.  Why, because the expression of affection wasn't recognized by the receiver.  The same applies with dominants and submissives... a submissive needs the dominant to recognize their efforts.  A smart dominant learns to recognize even incorrect efforts and to correct them while still encouraging the effort towards more desirable forms of expression.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to MHOO314)
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RE: Submission: Head, Heart & Soul - 5/20/2006 12:26:07 PM   
krikket


Posts: 1183
Joined: 11/17/2004
From: Washington, DC Metro Area
Status: offline 		i think a lot of us fall into the "trap" of seeing certain words and/or actions not just demonstrating a dom/sub trait to others, but in doing them they actually make someone a "better" dom or sub.  In the early days of my discoveries and journey there were lots of things i wanted to question, but "it just wasn't done" -- not by a "true" sub (and how i've come to hate that word..lol).  Now i tend to question everything, something that not all appreciate of me..lol.

Time and experience have taught me is that there are indeed things i may do (or not) with a dom that he decides makes me true or not.  However, for myself, it's not the outward actions that are truly important, but my inward and deep held beliefs in Him, my myself, in Us.  i've also learned that just showing those traits (crawling on a leash perhaps) doesn't make me His because it takes my heart and soul to accomplish that.  It took me a fair amount of time to figure out that while i could (almost easily) phsysically submit to someone, that wasn't what i needed or wanted, and that those relationships left me feeling empty and hallow.  While i haven't fully tested my theory i have no doubt that for there are things i simply have no interest in doing with a friend or buddy, i wouldn't hesitate to do those same things for my Master -- for the simple reason that it would please him.  guess what it all boils down to, for me, is that when i'm in more casual relationship pleasing the top just isn't as important to me as it when i'm in a deeply intimate M/s relationship. 

Happy Saturday y'all...

jk

_____________________________

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to bloom."

by A. Nin



When your heart speaks take good notes.





(in reply to Padriag)
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RE: Submission: Head, Heart & Soul - 5/20/2006 12:31:31 PM   
jamesthehumanrug


Posts: 668
Joined: 10/21/2005
Status: offline 		DEAR M WHO ,
I LOVE TO READ YOUR POSTS !
I LOOK FOR YOU EVERYTIME; 
greetings,one and only,
i think afraid of the strap-on is the same thing as a vanilla guy with a fridgid wife;
guess theres lots of different words you have for cold; fridgid ;ice; etc ...,IN BED;
same as eskimoes have many words for snow;
cause it means so much to them;
anyway; 
you're , not alone ;
if it's any consolation(i'm sure it's, not....)
ME ,TOO!;
my question is :are you more afraid of the fake ;glow,in the dark;psychodelic ;party type ones ;the freaky bumby looking ones more ,
or are you more scared of the very real looking ones ,that actually look and feel like a penis?
what ever;stupid question....
.....it's more a problem ,to you ,than the other person ;who is a 'top' ;and, wants to use a strap- on , because, they may do it anyway, or find it more intersting that you are so called "hard to get", in that area....
i swere to gaud ,when i had to play normal gay vanilla;making my way up the community ranks;

there was a girl that was so big; i almost lost my arm to my shoulder!,and, EVERYBODY knew, that girl by the size of her A-HOLE(AND SHE WAS A TOP PROFESSIONAL IN REGULAR EVERYDAY LIFE,)
talk about rep;
so dont worry about it;
not talking in bed too ;YOU KNOW:analizing too much; MAY kill the mood or romance; and ,even ,if you're, not ,into it ,if you're  simply quiet; your smoothe,(yes i stupidly did that song too,  SMOOTH,and, the basketcases ripped it)
but, ....
in woman :ALWAYS remember ;there's a delicate ;very ;thin-wall, between the vagina, and the anal cannal ,and, you can get bacterium,from the anus into the vagina , if the linning is ripped ,by clumsy penetration,in either oraface;enuff ,to cause serious painful  infection ,so at least, either take it easy ,or be, with an experienced person ,and ,not a clod!
i feel, for you......(yes :don't even wonder;
i certianly did that early big time hit too .... i feel for you ,oh' stupid me....)
but ,i DO KNOW what i'm talking about,when it comes to real big A-holes ANYWAY.... and , i'm ,not one ,of them,that's all.

< Message edited by jamesthehumanrug -- 5/20/2006 12:41:02 PM >

_____________________________

I REMAIN RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED
,LOVEles,
jamesthehumanrug

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RE: Submission: Head, Heart & Soul - 5/20/2006 12:45:47 PM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314
Is the physical manifestation as important as the HH&S?

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
It is not our actions do not define Dominance or Submission.... It's the Motivations of Actions that do.


Bingo!

First comes the head, she recognises in me someone she 'may' be able to serve.
We meet, the dynamic reacts, the spark is there, the potential is recognised and followed.
We get to know one another, we BOTH start to care and the heart follows the head
The 'soul' comes with time.

Once we reach her giving me her heart and I feel likewise, then any problems with the physical side I will deal with, either by helping her overcome them or finding ways round them. Not something she needs to worry about. If she is trying her best to serve, her best will please me. As KoM states rather elequently, her motivation counts far more than the action.




_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

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RE: Submission: Head, Heart & Soul - 5/20/2006 1:02:29 PM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		From my writings...

It occurs to me that many of us are steeped in what we believe are traditions of our chosen lifestyle. But also in my ruminations come clear and unprecedented facts. In order for what we treasure to survive, we must address things in a new and fresh light. If matters are allowed to continue as currently passes for correctness, we shall surely denigrate into nothing more than the trolls that frighten and disavow us to those not of our sect.
The one remaining constant, binding our old life to our new one, is truth. Honesty in all things, from the smallest whisper to the greatest stentorian utterance is like oxygen. Without it, we shall surely suffer failure to thrive.
I do not accept those that wish me to be weak-minded and weak-willed, or worse, wish to force such on me, nor should any other living body. I shall not turn a blind eye or deaf ear to one that proclaims his own dominion like a rooster heralding dawn or strutting among the hens as if he is head and shoulders above them all, simply by being male.
I shall not defer to him in any fashion.
There are many books written upon the subject of Dominance and submission and largely, they lay the path out as if the physical practice of the darker arts of pleasure to be the bedrock and thereby, the foundations of our lifestyle. Such belief, I dearly hold as crudely and irrevocably false. Pleasure is but an accoutrement to what all else is based on; love.
For if a foundation is formed without love, love for the craft, love for the art, love for life, it is faulty and shall fail. Such failures become roamers; attaching to each other as leeches. They latch on and begin feeding and when they can take no more, they suddenly and without warning drop off.
One such roamer once waxed profanely on his conquest of over four hundred women. Four hundred! If he was to be believed, he has spent much of his life mindlessly allowing his body to lead him where it will, with little thought or regard to his whole self. He is but a shell of humanity. Of all the deathbed confessions ever urgently and breathlessly whispered, I very much doubt that having had more time to add one more notch to the bedpost has been one of them. But is the mind of one such as this capable of regret of having never lived deeply?
I have vowed to live deeply and not lightly, to take more and not less of what we are given.
 
It truly does not matter how many lashes a body can withstand or if a cane is preferred to a flogger. What tips the balance are the reasons for accepting the lash.

_____________________________

Snarky and loving it.

Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

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RE: Submission: Head, Heart & Soul - 5/20/2006 1:10:53 PM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: krikket

Time and experience have taught me is that there are indeed things i may do (or not) with a dom that he decides makes me true or not.  However, for myself, it's not the outward actions that are truly important, but my inward and deep held beliefs in Him, my myself, in Us.  i've also learned that just showing those traits (crawling on a leash perhaps) doesn't make me His because it takes my heart and soul to accomplish that.  It took me a fair amount of time to figure out that while i could (almost easily) phsysically submit to someone, that wasn't what i needed or wanted, and that those relationships left me feeling empty and hallow.  While i haven't fully tested my theory i have no doubt that for there are things i simply have no interest in doing with a friend or buddy, i wouldn't hesitate to do those same things for my Master -- for the simple reason that it would please him.  guess what it all boils down to, for me, is that when i'm in more casual relationship pleasing the top just isn't as important to me as it when i'm in a deeply intimate M/s relationship. 


Well said!  ...and I couldn't agree more.  Aren't we back to that 'it takes TIME to build a relationship' thang?  Yup, when I'm playing with a pal my submission only goes so far..  When I'm playing with someone who might become more, I'm likely to feel MUCH differently and want to do more; in an effort to please him.  And the one time I was with someone I completely submitted to I was awed by the degree to which I wanted to submit and serve him. 

So...the degree to which one could apply the 'true submissive' title to me might vary from one person to another, based on my actions ...depending on how much HH&S was involved...which influenced those actions judged.

gawd...I hope that makes sense.

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RE: Submission: Head, Heart & Soul - 5/20/2006 1:20:45 PM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314
 
To Me, I want a submissive to first focus on the inner drivers, the inner motivators for their submission, THEN the "possible" manifestations--for those vary from One to One to One
 
so, I am open to thoughts and opinions? Is the physical manifestation as important as the HH&S?


I was thinking earlier today that I wish I had admitted my submissiveness much earlier while my body was still able to do the things I would so much like to do. Physically I can't kneel to kiss a Dom/me's feet. I want to, but my body isn't able to do that right now. It may never be able to do it again. Does that make me less submissive? Does it make me less appreciative of the attention they have given me? No. I just have physical challenges now that I didn't have 10, 20, 30 years ago.

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RE: Submission: Head, Heart & Soul - 5/21/2006 6:42:03 AM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		james! How awesome to see you again--and I have come to understand your posts very well--as always good to see your insight---and you make a valid point--fear of the strap-on is psychological as well as physical---a very good point as always!

_____________________________

SLUTS: Southern Ladies Under Tremendous Stress...

Mistress Hathor


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RE: Submission: Head, Heart & Soul - 5/21/2006 7:09:10 AM   
sharainks


Posts: 499
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		I think a lot of people have trouble with seeing what is dominance and submission.  When that happens you need physical "acts" that demonstrate the role. 

To me submission, probably dominance as well, always comes from the heart first.  Meaning if that person compels you to feel certain things the demonstration of those things can become physical.  D/s to me is a state of being. 

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RE: Submission: Head, Heart & Soul - 5/21/2006 7:09:39 AM   
krikket


Posts: 1183
Joined: 11/17/2004
From: Washington, DC Metro Area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

I was thinking earlier today that I wish I had admitted my submissiveness much earlier while my body was still able to do the things I would so much like to do. Physically I can't kneel to kiss a Dom/me's feet. I want to, but my body isn't able to do that right now. It may never be able to do it again. Does that make me less submissive? Does it make me less appreciative of the attention they have given me? No. I just have physical challenges now that I didn't have 10, 20, 30 years ago.



"wow, howdy...ain't that the truth..lol"  Even in the 10 years i've been i've been doing "this stuff" i've seen my body change dramatically, kneeling, if done at all, requires a pillow, and the rest of me just doesn't bend, move, stretch or bind like "it usta"..lol. 

i understand the worries of not being able to physically do what pleases my partner, seeing me as less a submissive and a woman.  It's frustrating as hell.. <sigh>

...and now that i've throughly depressed myself...time for a cuppy coffee...lol

Happy Sunday, y'all

jimini

_____________________________

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to bloom."

by A. Nin



When your heart speaks take good notes.





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RE: Submission: Head, Heart & Soul - 5/21/2006 7:51:26 AM   
iliv2servher


Posts: 228
Joined: 5/17/2006
Status: offline 		I would have to say that I agree with what some of the others here have said, in that each one of us has their own individual motivating factors.  For some it is physical first, and yet for others it can be emotional.  I personally tend to view the physical manifestations as a bottoming behavior rather than a submissive behavior.  I also believe that submission is a state of mind, and that it originates or eminates from a place deep within those of us who are submissives.  But this is only my own POV.

-iliv2servHer 

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Dating sucks!

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RE: Submission: Head, Heart & Soul - 5/21/2006 9:30:46 AM   
smackedbyaunti


Posts: 5
Joined: 5/18/2006
Status: offline 		I feel that a "true"dom can sense sincere devotion from their slave/pet. so when your journey is complete, your adoration will serve as your servitude.

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RE: Submission: Head, Heart & Soul - 5/21/2006 10:03:26 AM   
Proprietrix


Posts: 756
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Ohio/West Virginia
Status: offline 		The physical manifestations of submission are so wide and diversified that I would be skeptical of a submissive who was spending excessive time focusing on one particular activity, regardless of what that specific activity is. It would send the message to me that the submissive was a bit caught up in a tunnel-visioned version of BDSM, rather than the reality of what is in front of them.

That comes across to me like someone saying "I want to be a great chef someday, but I'm allergic to asparagus and can't work with it. Does that mean no one will ever eat my cooking?"

If a submissive is focusing on one particular activity they are unable to perform, they are being narrow-minded. They are assuming that all D/s is founded upon one activity. They aren't being open to the immense possibilities out there. And if they are dealing with a Dominant who pins their submissive's submission on that one particular activity, I would advise them that they are dealing with a narrow-minded Dominant.

_____________________________

IMO, IMHO, YMMV, AFAIK, to me, I see it as, from my perspective, it's been my experience, I only speak for myself, (and all other disclaimers here).

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RE: Submission: Head, Heart & Soul - 5/21/2006 10:33:52 AM   
champagnewishes


Posts: 1310
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Orange County
Status: offline 		I did not know you mentored MH.  How fortunate they are to be under your guidance.

It has always been MHO that submission must first be explored and understood by the submissive. It took me years to fully understand, appreciate and nurture this aspect of myself.  During this time, I never sought a Dom.  How could i enter a relationship not knowing the full implications my submission had in store for me let alone Him?  I had to make sure my HH&S were all on the same page before i could procede. 

I next sought a mentor to help me through areas where my head said one thing and my heart said another. In otherwords, i had to have a complete understanding of my inner self before even thinking about allowing it to manifest in physical terms.  To do otherwise i feel would be cheating myself and the person i submitt to.

I seek out Dominants who have gone through the same process.  It's easy to learn the physical but the physical has no satisfaction if it isn't an extension of the inner self.  That would be like handing someone a loaded gun and saying "pull the trigger and see what happens".

< Message edited by champagnewishes -- 5/21/2006 10:38:39 AM >

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RE: Submission: Head, Heart & Soul - 5/22/2006 6:05:27 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314
so, I am open to thoughts and opinions? Is the physical manifestation as important as the HH&S?


Yes & No.

If a person has a physical disability, or there's a long distance gap, or a person just physically can't DO a particular thing...that doesn't lessen the emotional and spiritual presence and effect at all.

That being said, I'm a human in ORDER to experience physical connections.  It's how I EXPRESS myself and how I feel.  Without the actualization of those feelings, I would consider the cycle incomplete in some ways.

I always say dominance and submission isn't an ACT- and that means that there is no act that is inherently dominant or submissive, what matters is your motivation and inner fulfillment.  It doesn't matter what you're DOING, because it's always who you ARE.

However, physical expressions of WHO WE ARE are just as important- it shows our personal integrity and honor, it shows what we value and how we value it, it shows OTHERS who we are.

If we were completely a race of telepaths, then I think things would be very different.  As we are not, I think both the feeling and the doing are as important as the other.  I'm not going to denigrate an action just because it's not as "lofty" as the feeling. 

As a human I both feel AND do- and to deny either, would be to deny part of my identity.  If I didn't want to DO, I wouldn't have become human.

_____________________________

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Submission: Head, Heart & Soul - 5/22/2006 6:51:39 AM   
LL1aintbehavin


Posts: 104
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		i believe that submission in the head, heart and soul is shown in the desire to serve and please.  If one truly desires to give all that they are able to give (taking into account any physical limitations) that it shows their devotion.  There are physical acts that others have been able to accomplish for my Dom in previous relationships, that i am physically unable to do, but that does not mean that i am lacking anything in my service to Him.  He also does not see any problem as my devotion is so much more than any physical act alone that i am able or unable to accomplish.
i see that a particular "sex" act as not being limited to a submissive or dominant role, eg. if it is only a submissive trait to give oral, then would a Dominant feel their position changed if they gave oral to their submissive.  i supposed it is all in the mind set and views of those in that particular relationship.
For a long term relationship, the continued willingness and desire to serve on any level they are able to shows more than any one physical act.
This is just my personal opinion on this subject.
aintbehavin

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