Which is it?

Which is it? (Full Version)

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AlwaysLisa -> Which is it? (8/19/2011 7:56:25 AM)
Morning... First, let me apologize if this is in the archives, I went through 7 pages and couldn't find a post that addressed this question. Recently, I was told that BDSM stands for Bondage Dominance Submission Masochism, but it also includes Discipline and Sadomasochism. When we started looking into BDSM (at least 10 years ago), the person(s) we were talking with said it was Bondage Discipline Sadomasochism and Masochism, no D/s, (Dominance/submission). So, I have been looking for a source that can tell me what these four letters actually mean! My brain won't wrap around the D,S having dual meaning...but if that is the case, then I will need to work on my acceptance. :) The internet is not helping, as I can find both, nothing indicating that one is more correct then the other. What it looks like to me, so far....is that if we go to the Marquee De Sade's days, it would indeed be as I was told long ago, leaving out the the D/s, and leaning towards the Discipline/Sado/Maso. The D/s, could have been added later? If so, why is it not BDDSSM? That would cover all bases! I am asking because I like to be correct when I say something...and if Im wrong, I need to re think some things and offer a few apologies.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Which is it? (8/19/2011 8:03:20 AM)
well, like most things, this has probably changed over time. when i was first getting into it 4 years ago, it was Bondage, Discipline/Domination, Sadism/Submission, Masochism. everything i read broke it down that way. i looked at sites with info from 2001, i talked to people who'd been into it for decades, etc etc, and that's the way it was explained to me. so sure, maybe it was explained one way 10 years ago, but it's very likely that that's changed today. adhering to a 10 year old definition isn't always good. i mean, a 10 year old text book in a classroom is generally seen as a bad thing, right? you can't really talk about 10 year old scientific understanding of how something works and apply it to a modern expanded/updated understanding, except to show how it may have changed.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Which is it? (8/19/2011 8:06:34 AM)
http://www.collarchat.com/m_3765428/mpage_1/tm.htm It's a fairly long thread, but eventually the OP's topic is discussed.

AlwaysLisa -> RE: Which is it? (8/19/2011 8:17:36 AM)
Thank you! Off to read...:)

Hillwilliam -> RE: Which is it? (8/19/2011 8:32:58 AM)
I think that's one reason some of us refer to WIITWD (What it is that we do) It's easier to type than Dominance and submission and sadism and masochism and bondage and discipline and daddydoms and babygirls and furries and goreans and littles and..............

AlwaysLisa -> RE: Which is it? (8/19/2011 8:41:15 AM)
Half way through the thread....wow. Head is spinning. Could be correct, could be not.... This appears to be one of those issues that can be open to interpretation. I will need more coffee. I do better on black and white issues, with hard,cold facts...may have to table this for a bit while researching more.

stoni23 -> RE: Which is it? (8/19/2011 8:59:43 AM)
I'd say leave it open to interpretation. Regardless of what it actually stands for, it won't change your relationship : )

coookie -> RE: Which is it? (8/19/2011 12:32:50 PM)
I agree with stoni and when it comes up just be like yep it could be either way whichever floats your boat.

LaTigresse -> RE: Which is it? (8/19/2011 12:37:05 PM)
I just figure........I prefer to be in a power exchange relationship with a woman in which I can also freely express some of my sadistic glee.........type of statement! Although the sadistic glee is not required. Then top it off with........oh yeah, I am also polyamorous.....just to really fuck with their heads.

littlewonder -> RE: Which is it? (8/19/2011 1:26:55 PM)
I never even bother using bdsm to cover what I do and enjoy. Instead I just tell people with descriptions of what I like to do since no one and I mean no one can agree on what the acronyms and words mean within "bdsm". So instead I just say I like a relationship with a dominant personality man whether he uses the terms or even knows what they are or has ever even heard of them because really..none of that matters to me as long as he has a dominant personality. I think that pretty much covers it for me instead.

DomImus -> RE: Which is it? (8/19/2011 2:16:26 PM)
I always thought it was Bondage Domination Sadism Masochism.

Focus50 -> RE: Which is it? (8/19/2011 2:30:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa Morning... First, let me apologize if this is in the archives, I went through 7 pages and couldn't find a post that addressed this question. Recently, I was told that BDSM stands for Bondage Dominance Submission Masochism, but it also includes Discipline and Sadomasochism. When we started looking into BDSM (at least 10 years ago), the person(s) we were talking with said it was Bondage Discipline Sadomasochism and Masochism, no D/s, (Dominance/submission). So, I have been looking for a source that can tell me what these four letters actually mean! My brain won't wrap around the D,S having dual meaning...but if that is the case, then I will need to work on my acceptance. :) The internet is not helping, as I can find both, nothing indicating that one is more correct then the other. What it looks like to me, so far....is that if we go to the Marquee De Sade's days, it would indeed be as I was told long ago, leaving out the the D/s, and leaning towards the Discipline/Sado/Maso. The D/s, could have been added later? If so, why is it not BDDSSM? That would cover all bases! I am asking because I like to be correct when I say something...and if Im wrong, I need to re think some things and offer a few apologies. Like others, I simply used an interpretation that best suits me. For a long time I just said b&d for bondage & discipline. Now I tend to say D&s when posting on forums, to highlight a relationship dynamic of Domination & submission. I understand your perfectionist ideal of wanting to get it right or "be correct" etc as I also tend to default to a philosophy that if it doesn't matter which way something is done then I'll choose the right way or the accurate way over the "anything will do" way. Not always appreciated by my subs when I start unpicking the ropes because a particular bondage piece (usually breast bondage) wasn't visually working the way I wanted.... But I digress.... At the end of the day, most people will have their own definition so for you to "be correct", pick the one that best suits you and your ideals and stick with it. Anyone into bdsm will understand what you mean when you say bdsm. For everyone not into it, well I don't educate the ignorant on my personal lifestyle choices.... Focus.

AlwaysLisa -> RE: Which is it? (8/19/2011 3:53:45 PM)
Thank you for all the replies. For years I went with Bondage/Discipline/Sadomasochist/Masochistic, so, I could state we didn't partake in BDSM activities and say it with a feeling of correctness. Please, there is nothing wrong with anyone who enjoys these things, I have dear friends who do, but it did nothing for me. Then, lately, I was reading that it also referred to Dominance and Submission, which describes our nature of relating to perfection, this confused me. I had to find out what the acronym stood for, or change my wording. After reading that very long thread, (oy, it gave me a headache!), I decided to stick with the original concept. Until such time as the acronym is changed to BDDSSM. This is just for my own view, I know not everyone will agree, but I feel it is black and white where grammar is concerned. What can I say, I need black and white, never did do well with gray areas :) Thanks again.

Awareness -> RE: Which is it? (8/19/2011 4:00:20 PM)
Lisa, inasmuch as language is a means to communicate, it's important to understand that words are a form of information compression in which ideas are exchanged through reference to a shared dictionary (in the information theory sense) of terms. Those terms are however loaded into each one of us by culture. Consequently those people who share culture are able to communicate with the greatest ease - including idiomatic forms and references to popular (shared) culture. Utilisation of a given word form arises through the constant evolution of language. For instance, one trend I've noticed is for verbs to become nouns. EG: "That's a big ask" meaning that someone is asking a lot. So dictionaries in a classic sense are a catalogue of words based upon a scholarly evaluation of their common use. What that implies, is that words or terms are not arbitrarily decided by committee. There is no final authority on words, terms and so on. Dictionaries merely take snapshots of the cultural literary zeitgeist, as it were. What this means is that effectively BDSM means whatever the broad consensus would imply it means - however there doesn't appear to be a broad consensus, especially given an acronym which has so many options for each of the letters. (Incidentally to me, it always implied Bondage & Domination, Sadism and Masochism. If you think about popular references, people usually describe someone as "into Bondage". Or at least that's what I've encountered most often. Domination implies submission and in keeping with the theme, there's no way submission gets a whole letter to itself. Uppity goddamn word.) Point is, there is no final authority on this. There is only the possibility of consensus, of which there is none. So the most you can say is that BDSM encompasses a range of activities including Bondage, Domination, Submission, Sadism and Masochism. Although where the adult-diaper people fit into that definition is anyone's guess. You could try and list it as "divergent sexuality" but then the play-only crowd would get up in arms and the necros and paedos would think they'd found a new home. Incidentally, this is part of the problem with the "And it harm none, do as thou wilt" kind of philosophy. Necros aren't hurting anyone, but do you really want them walking amongst us? Ultimately, the definition doesn't matter. It's kind of like pornography - you might not be able to define it, but you know it when you see it. And that's pretty much all that really matters. It's a vague term with a vague consensus, vague boundaries and vague proponents of vague activities. When someone refers to it, they're pretty much just saying "That kind of stuff".

AcademyForSlaves -> RE: Which is it? (8/19/2011 8:17:07 PM)
Hello, When I first came on the scene I always heard and read it as "Bondage, Discipline, ..." etc so yes "discipline" had been in the term. However, many things change over the years as people re-phrase things in their own way or if someone makes a spelling error and it sticks and remains that way. Sometimes you have to look at things in your own way and not let other viewpoints ruin it for you. We all learn from each other, so varied opinions and viewpoints are a good thing, but in the end stick with what makes you feel most comfortable. Hope this helps.

MalcolmNathaniel -> RE: Which is it? (8/19/2011 11:24:39 PM)
As I was introduced to the term it was described as four letters that stand for six words. BD: Bondage And Discipline. DS: Dominance and Submission SM: Sadism and Masochism. So basically it's even shorter than BDDSSM. All three parts are complimentary: You can't have Dominance without submission. You can't have Sadism without Masochism. Actually you can have bondage without discipline, but not many really want that. Confused yet? Well, that's kind of normal. BDSM contains a plethora of dichotomies. Ask any self-described slave if they feel freer when tied up and obeying orders. To a large extent, BDSM requires you to face these dichotomies head on. I'm and American and a Jew and yet I want to own a pretty slave girl; realizing that gave me serious pause. Then I just said, "Fuck it."

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Which is it? (8/20/2011 12:33:42 AM)
I just refer to it as a "Power Dynamic", as that seems most appropriate. (shrugs)

LadyPact -> RE: Which is it? (8/20/2011 1:47:13 AM)
She didn't ask about BDDSSM. She asked about BDSM. Bondage Discipline Sadism Masochism The fact that the Dom/sub folks felt left out of the acronym and got butt hurt doesn't change what it really stands for.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Which is it? (8/20/2011 2:36:50 AM)
i dunno why everything has to be trivialized into someone being "butthurt;" maybe they thought there was a legitimate reason to add a couple more words to an acronym. i don't get why that's such a big deal. =p

MalcolmNathaniel -> RE: Which is it? (8/20/2011 3:41:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact She didn't ask about BDDSSM. She asked about BDSM. Bondage Discipline Sadism Masochism The fact that the Dom/sub folks felt left out of the acronym and got butt hurt doesn't change what it really stands for. Yeah, it was probably the Doms that forced it in there and the subs just let it go. Or maybe I read it in "Different Loving," "Screw the Roses Send Me the Thorns," or "S&M 101" I can't remember. Maybe it was the people who developed the Emblem Project and seemed to think that the tripartite vision of BDSM was important. I really can't remember: it was well over a decade ago that I learned that definition.

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