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Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 10:38:34 AM   
imperatrixx


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Status: offline 		This isn't a troll thread.

If I see someone post...Muslims hate women, Muslims are terrorists, Muslims are whatever, I react to the prejudice.

But the more I read about fundamentalist Christians doing abhorrent things, I find myself thinking...typical fundie freak. Fundamentalist Christians beat their kids. Not surprised. Fundamentalist Christians want to teach creationism in public school? Of course, those backwards motherfuckers do.

I'm really starting to become prejudiced. Not against all Christians, but against the really devout ones. I know that most people are Christian in name and I don't hold that against them, but the super evangelical fundamentalist ones...is what I'm feeling prejudice? I don't like having an automatic disdainful reaction to a group of people, no matter who they are.

So the question is - how do you stop prejudice? I always see people talk about stopping prejudice in society, or in other people, but how do you stop it when you feel it growing inside yourself?

Because I will be honest - I hate these people. I really do. And that kind of scares me about myself.
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RE: Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 10:43:24 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

So the question is - how do you stop prejudice? I always see people talk about stopping prejudice in society, or in other people, but how do you stop it when you feel it growing inside yourself?


That's a question I struggle with a lot, so I'm glad you raised it.

I think naming a prejudice for what it is constitutes an important first step.

If I'm having bigoted thoughts about a group, I try to think of someone I know in that subset. "Would I say this about Mary?" I ask myself. "Then why say it about anyone else?"

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RE: Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 10:47:02 AM   
erieangel


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Status: offline 		Good question imp. Sorry I can't help because I feel exactly as you do. My thing is that every time somebody goes on about "Muslim terrorists" I reply with the opinion that I'm more afraid of the evangelical right than any Muslim. The fundamentalists living in this country are much more likely to change this country than any Muslims living in the ME.

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RE: Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 10:48:34 AM   
imperatrixx


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Status: offline 		I think part of the problem is that I really don't know any fundamentalist Christians.

I feel like I'm reacting the same way as a lot of Islamophobes...the people who would see it as a positive if a candidate said they would never appoint a Muslim to their cabinet...I feel that way about someone who would say that they'd never appoint a fundamentalist Christian.

It's definitely a fear based thing in me...I tell myself that someone's religious beliefs won't necessarily affect their public policy...but there's that prejudiced side that comes out that doesn't fully believe it. And even though I know I'm being just as bad as the people I'd criticize for being Islamophobic, something inside me overrides it.

Blah.

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RE: Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 10:56:36 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I tell myself that someone's religious beliefs won't necessarily affect their public policy...but there's that prejudiced side that comes out that doesn't fully believe it.


This may partly be due to the fact that there are some fundamentalist Christians who would like to see their beliefs become the basis of public policy. Recognizing this fact and working against candidates whose views you oppose need not be a matter of prejudice imho.



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RE: Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 10:59:20 AM   
imperatrixx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

This may partly be due to the fact that there are some fundamentalist Christians who would like to see their beliefs become the basis of public policy. Recognizing this fact and working against candidates whose views you oppose need not be a matter of prejudice imho.


True...but it goes deeper than that. Like, Bin Laden is a Muslim, and a terrorist, but I don't connect the two in my mind the way I do with someone who, say, wants to teach creationism in public schools. I don't think bin Laden is a terrorist because he's a Muslim, but I do think that someone who wants to teach creationism in public schools thinks that because they're a fundamentalist Christian. That's the icky part.

Anyway I have to get to bed. It's something I've been thinking about and I look forward to reading responses.

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RE: Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 11:06:21 AM   
lockedaway


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Status: offline 		HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.......wow, Imp, you are such a stereotype.  Too funny.  You have a problem with Christians, eh?  You have a problem with a code of conduct like that Ten Commandments?  You have a problem with things like "honoring thy mother and father" and "thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor" and "thou shalt not covet they neighbor's wife"?  That is pretty fucked up since Christianity is responsible is arguably one of the most liberty spreading theologies in the history of man.  Oh...I get it, a religion that speaks to the virtue of Jihad is much more life affirming.

Have their been some atrocities in the name of a Christian God...sure.  But what was the Holocaust done in the name of?  The State....right?  The State and the Aryan race.  What about the millions upon millions that were killed just under the rule of Josef Stalin?  What was that done in the name of, sport?  Communism and the proletariat, right?  What about the Japanese rape of the world from Australia to the Aleutians?  What was that done in the name of...the Emperor, wasn't it?  What about the slaughter in Darfur and the Gold Coast in Africa....that is being committed in the name of...what?  Money and material, right?

You are such a well reasoned and brilliant guy, tell me this; how many millions of lives have been taken in the name of Christianity?  If you take the 100 Years War out of the equation...which had its justifications as well as its detractions...how many people would you say have been put to death for not worshiping Christ?  Care to venture a figure? 

Perhaps you would like to tell me what is wrong with teaching Creationism?  Do you have a problem that with the philosophy that a Supreme Being created the universe?  Do you also have a problem with the philosophies of Socrates, Pluto, Aristotle and Nietzsche?

Do you know what I am prejudiced against?  I guess I can't help it.  I'm prejudiced against asshole children from the ages of 15 to 30 years of age that have been taught that the U.S. is an evil country, that somehow a government owes them a living and that Christianity is a bad faith, Christians are bad people and that the notion that there is a being that is supreme to man is some sort of fantasy.  I don't know...I just fucking hate people like that.

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RE: Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 11:12:57 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

So the question is - how do you stop prejudice? I always see people talk about stopping prejudice in society, or in other people, but how do you stop it when you feel it growing inside yourself?


That's a question I struggle with a lot, so I'm glad you raised it.


So am I. To be honest, one of life's greatest challenge is not letting the fear and hate take you over. It's a challenge, for sure, and it takes effort, but it's absolutely worth it. I'm no expert in it, and I struggle with it too, but I am determined not to let the poison of prejudice and hate overcome me. I can take a stand against things that I will not tolerate without letting it become a vendetta.

I hope that helps.

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RE: Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 11:16:29 AM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		FR

Sometimes when I'm tempted to generalize about another group, I'm able to apply the brakes by thinking of ill-fitting generalizations people make about groups to which I belong (e.g., gays, fat people).

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 11:22:28 AM   
HannahLynHeather


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From: where it's at
Status: offline 		oppose them and their bullshit, but don't fucking hate them. pity them. they are mentally ill. just like the jihadists.

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i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

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RE: Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 11:24:27 AM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx
I'm really starting to become prejudiced. Not against all Christians, but against the really devout ones.

I wouldn't consider the super strict, fundamentalist, over-the-edge types more devout at all. More seemingly outrageous, more easily focused upon by the media, more noticable, more unlike "mainstream" folks...yes...but more "devout?' Not at all.

quote:

...is what I'm feeling prejudice? I don't like having an automatic disdainful reaction to a group of people, no matter who they are.

Sure sounds like it is. You are pre-judging all people you feel fall into a certain category without regard to his/her individual merits or behaviors. That's most definitely a prejudice. I think it's pretty enlightened of you to realize that it's not OK to have that "automatic disdainful reaction" to an entire group of people, no matter who they are. Now, I might make an exception for a group of say convicted chainsaw murdering pedophiles or something but, in general, entire groups of folks labeled by their race, religion, etc. shouldn't be judged as one.

I sound like a broken record around here, I know, because I'm always pointing out people's bigotry when they throw around words like "hillbillies," "trailer trash," etc. but would never dream of saying the dreaded "N" word. Hell, you can't even type the "N" word on these boards without it automatically being censored. They same cannot be said of bigoted terms directed toward poor white folks. Some of the same people who would swallow their own tongues before saying a "racist" term will gigglesnort and teehee all over themselves about rednicks, hicks and white trash. It's bigoted. It's disgusting. And, most of all, it's totally hypocrital. With their behaviors and words, they're saying it's OK to be bigoted and ignornant toward CERTAIN folks as long as they're white. It's a huge prejudice and area of bigotry that is not only accepted but encouraged here and in society in general. I personally think most of it comes from those who are a hair's breadth away from their own "hillbilly" upbringing and full of self-loathing. Pitiable indeed.

quote:

So the question is - how do you stop prejudice? I always see people talk about stopping prejudice in society, or in other people, but how do you stop it when you feel it growing inside yourself? Because I will be honest - I hate these people. I really do. And that kind of scares me about myself.

Noticing and admitting it are the first steps, of course. As someone else mentioned, if at all possible, try to see the people in the group you hate as individuals and realize they are not all exactly alike. See them as individuals, not a faceless mob of people with ideas you hate. Because...after all....it's not the people you hate, I'm assuming, it's the ideas they propose and endorse. I don't hate fundamentalist Christians though I do despise lots of ideas they endorse. I try to see them as sincere people and try to understand WHY they feel and believe the way they do. If you can understand where someone is coming from, it often helps to hate them less.

I think it oftentimes seems hopeless to think about changing the mindset of large groups in general, esp. where politics and religion are involved. Therefore, what I do in my own little sphere of influence, is try to reach individuals who vehemently disagree with me and have a peaceful dialogue that can sometimes open both of our minds a bit. The thing you rarely, if ever, see in the media is that normal, everyday people whose opinions are diametrically opposed CAN sit down and have a civil debate without diminishing each other or raging at each other full of hate. All the media ever shows is hateful face-offs and reality has shown me that is not the case. I enjoy sharing my views and hearing views that are totally different from mine as long as I'm not diminished and demeaned for not agreeing. I think they key is to realize you're never going to change the opinions of "fundamentalist Christians in America" as a whole. However, you may have influence on individuals you meet who tend to believe those views. Expecting anything more is setting yourself up for failure.

Keeping in mind that it's the epitome of ignorance to ever say/believe that ALL members of ANY group are totally alike is a good start. And refusing to say hateful things about any entire group in general is a good second step. Third, having a sense of empathy can never hurt. Imagine you are a fundamentalist Christian. Someone raised up in a home that taught you to believe (the opposite of everything you now do). Imagine how they feel when faced with the very issues they were taught one thing about but society in general believes something else about. It would be a fearful thing to live with that every day. To me, it all boils down to seeing EVERYONE as not a fundamentalist, a radical, a black person, a white person but just a person with the right to believe as he/she chooses. As much as I may disagree, they disagree with me the same amount. The key is just not to blindly hate but to learn how to interact and rise above the easy route to take which is just to dismiss them........luci

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RE: Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 11:28:16 AM   
slaveluci


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From: Little Rock, AR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Sometimes when I'm tempted to generalize about another group, I'm able to apply the brakes by thinking of ill-fitting generalizations people make about groups to which I belong (e.g., gays, fat people).

Exactly!
luci

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RE: Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 11:31:46 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx
I feel like I'm reacting the same way as a lot of Islamophobes...the people who would see it as a positive if a candidate said they would never appoint a Muslim to their cabinet...I feel that way about someone who would say that they'd never appoint a fundamentalist Christian.

I feel thats a particularly honest comment, it is perhaps inevitable that we all have perspectives and prejudices, whether they be over minor or major issues. People on the left are no more immune to it than those on the right IMO. Everyone judges to some extent

quote:


It's definitely a fear based thing in me...I tell myself that someone's religious beliefs won't necessarily affect their public policy...but there's that prejudiced side that comes out that doesn't fully believe it. And even though I know I'm being just as bad as the people I'd criticize for being Islamophobic, something inside me overrides it.

I think we shouldn't always necessarily reject fear. Sometimes it is justified. I think it is likely that religion will affect one's perspective on right and wrong. It isn't just a neutral belief in a god(s), it comes with a whole ethical system enclosed. That isn't to say all Christians must believe X but there would be a predisposition particularly for devout Christians.

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RE: Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 11:32:47 AM   
slaveluci


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From: Little Rock, AR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

This may partly be due to the fact that there are some fundamentalist Christians who would like to see their beliefs become the basis of public policy. Recognizing this fact and working against candidates whose views you oppose need not be a matter of prejudice imho.



That is another excellent point. Fundamentalist Christians are free to believe whatever they want but when they try to legistlate their beliefs, that is when it becomes a problem for me personally. And I don't feel the least bit bad about fighting their attempts to make abortion illegal, keep gay marriage illegal, etc. Believe what you will but don't trample on my rights or the rights of all the rest of the US citizens who don't agree with your views........luci

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RE: Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 11:36:15 AM   
Louve00


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Status: offline 		I somehow think lockedaway and imperatrixx are not on the same page as this.  I could be wrong, but imperatrixx asked some specific questions....." So the question is - how do you stop prejudice? I always see people talk about stopping prejudice in society, or in other people, but how do you stop it when you feel it growing inside yourself?
Because I will be honest - I hate these people. I really do. And that kind of scares me about myself.

Lockedaway's answer to the question was "Do you know what I am prejudiced against?  I guess I can't help it.  I'm prejudiced against asshole children from the ages of 15 to 30 years of age that have been taught that the U.S. is an evil country, that somehow a government owes them a living and that Christianity is a bad faith, Christians are bad people and that the notion that there is a being that is supreme to man is some sort of fantasy.  I don't know...I just fucking hate people like that."

Imp said nothing about the 10 commandments.  The question posed was one to better her/him self when it comes to giving in to prejudice.  She/he was met by HAHAHAHAetc... and was called a stereotype for trying to better herself or at least for trying to understand how to quell it within you. 

Imperatrixx, my answer to you would be to put yourself in the place of the person you're prejudiced against.  Try to understand the miles they have walked thru in their shoes and how they've come to deal with it.  Maybe, if you look at it fairly, you can understand the position of the one you are prejudiced of and will understand them better.

Prejudice is derived from ignorance.  Have you ever stopped to consider that you're not so much prejudiced about a certain reaction or of a certain group of people (ie, evangelists and fundamentalists), as much as you are their ignorant point of views and rationales on certain things?


< Message edited by Louve00 -- 8/21/2011 11:39:09 AM >

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RE: Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 11:38:44 AM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
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Status: offline 		By the way...I have a question that I'm hoping some of you can answer since we are talking a little about Christianity and politics.  Now that the definition of marriage has been expanded to include gays in New York State, why can't I marry two girls?  I have been in triadic relationships since college and I have been in long term relationships with bisexual girls that loved each other as well as me.  But I couldn't marry them....and I still can't.  I don't think that's fair. 

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RE: Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 11:46:05 AM   
Tantriqu


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Status: offline 		Religion is by definition prejudice, preaching that some followers are better because they believe in a particular fairy tale: who's better to worship, Isaac or Mohammed, the guy ready to slash his son's throat on a rock because voices told him to, or the guy who took a pre-adolescent girl as his second wife? The answer is neither, and no one.
Go watch 'The Invention of Lying', and see how ridiculous it is to believe in a skyman, or do anything but be good to but firm with your fellow man.
The first step is becoming a humanist, and living by that premise every day, and being a shining example of a good, strong, thoughtful person not in it for imaginary rewards in an imaginary afterlife.



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RE: Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 11:47:52 AM   
lockedaway


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

I somehow think lockedaway and imperatrixx are not on the same page as this.  I could be wrong, but imperatrixx asked some specific questions....." So the question is - how do you stop prejudice? I always see people talk about stopping prejudice in society, or in other people, but how do you stop it when you feel it growing inside yourself?
Because I will be honest - I hate these people. I really do. And that kind of scares me about myself.

Lockedaway's answer to the question was "Do you know what I am prejudiced against?  I guess I can't help it.  I'm prejudiced against asshole children from the ages of 15 to 30 years of age that have been taught that the U.S. is an evil country, that somehow a government owes them a living and that Christianity is a bad faith, Christians are bad people and that the notion that there is a being that is supreme to man is some sort of fantasy.  I don't know...I just fucking hate people like that."

Imp said nothing about the 10 commandments.  The question posed was one to better her/him self when it comes to giving in to prejudice.  She/he was met by HAHAHAHAetc... and was called a stereotype for trying to better herself or at least for trying to understand how to quell it within you. 

Imperatrixx, my answer to you would be to put yourself in the place of the person you're prejudiced against.  Try to understand the miles they have walked thru in their shoes and how they've come to deal with it.  Maybe, if you look at it fairly, you can understand the position of the one you are prejudiced of and will understand them better.

Prejudice is derived from ignorance.  Have you ever stopped to consider that you're not so much prejudiced about a certain reaction or of a certain group of people (ie, evangelists and fundamentalists), as much as you are their ignorant point of views and rationales on certain things?



First, the HAHAHA relates to my "personal relationship" with Imp in regards to other posts and replies he and I have exchanged in the past. 

Second..Anaxagoras made an excellent post about prejudice.  I have no problem with prejudice.  If your faculties and your experiences teach you something that happens to be negative about a certain race, ethnicity, culture, religion....whatever and it somehow bothers you, offends you, threatens your sense of security, etc., be prejudiced...engage in avoidant behavior.  Don't deny what you have learned in life...that isn't "prejudice" that's stupidity.  I STILL won't walk through Harlem north of 110th St after 9 pm., what does that make me???  If your answer is "prejudiced" that's fine...but I have had my problems up there before and don't intend to repeat the experience.

There is a difference between "prejudice" and "racism".  I am not a racist...but I have my prejudices.  All people do.  The question...and it is a personal question...is what has lead you to feel the way you feel.

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RE: Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 11:50:12 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.......wow, Imp, you are such a stereotype.  Too funny.  You have a problem with Christians, eh?  You have a problem with a code of conduct like that Ten Commandments?  You have a problem with things like "honoring thy mother and father" and "thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor" and "thou shalt not covet they neighbor's wife"?  That is pretty fucked up since Christianity is responsible is arguably one of the most liberty spreading theologies in the history of man.  Oh...I get it, a religion that speaks to the virtue of Jihad is much more life affirming.

Have their been some atrocities in the name of a Christian God...sure.  But what was the Holocaust done in the name of?  The State....right?  The State and the Aryan race.  What about the millions upon millions that were killed just under the rule of Josef Stalin?  What was that done in the name of, sport?  Communism and the proletariat, right?  What about the Japanese rape of the world from Australia to the Aleutians?  What was that done in the name of...the Emperor, wasn't it?  What about the slaughter in Darfur and the Gold Coast in Africa....that is being committed in the name of...what?  Money and material, right?

You are such a well reasoned and brilliant guy, tell me this; how many millions of lives have been taken in the name of Christianity?  If you take the 100 Years War out of the equation...which had its justifications as well as its detractions...how many people would you say have been put to death for not worshiping Christ?  Care to venture a figure? 

Perhaps you would like to tell me what is wrong with teaching Creationism?  Do you have a problem that with the philosophy that a Supreme Being created the universe?  Do you also have a problem with the philosophies of Socrates, Pluto, Aristotle and Nietzsche?

Do you know what I am prejudiced against?  I guess I can't help it.  I'm prejudiced against asshole children from the ages of 15 to 30 years of age that have been taught that the U.S. is an evil country, that somehow a government owes them a living and that Christianity is a bad faith, Christians are bad people and that the notion that there is a being that is supreme to man is some sort of fantasy.  I don't know...I just fucking hate people like that.

lockedaway,

While I think you have some good points in some of your posts (including this one), I do think you also miss opportunities for a real discussion.

I believe imp is being very straight forward, and honestly seeking input. 

Finding someone with an open-mind is difficult enough.  We don't need to alienate them.

Firm


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RE: Confronting Prejudice. - 8/21/2011 12:05:43 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		*sigh*  ............alright.  I am not trying to squelch an open discussion but I find Imp's opening statement to be ridiculous and a moral equivocation. 

I also find the discussion of prejudice to be very poorly framed.  Prejudice is merely a dislike or a certain disposition towards one thing as opposed to another.  It isn't necessarily a "good" or "bad" thing.  I think a discussion of "bigotry" would have been more on point.



< Message edited by lockedaway -- 8/21/2011 12:08:34 PM >

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