Preemptive Strikes (Full Version)

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IronBear -> Preemptive Strikes (5/20/2006 3:42:39 PM)

During a sector of posts in the “Incompetent administration, criminal war?” thread, the discussion moved to “Preemptive Strikes”. Now unless my memory of history is totally wrong, I seem to remember the British in an earlier age had no hesitation in enforcing their views on the oceans by blockading and even chasing all slave ships in international waters. I’m not sure but I don’t think the US has quite done that but they did blockade Cuba under Kennedy and have usually maintained a naval presence in potential hot spots. Logic a lot would indicate that these forces, Royal navy in earlier times and the US Navy today when in these “Hot Spots” would have contingencies to make preemptive strikes using suitable methods according to the situation and what was to hand. I am curious what the opinion is regarding Preemptive Strikes and how far things need to deteriorate before they are sanctioned..

  1. Is it when a diplomatic mission is told to bugger off?
  2. Is it when troops start to mass?
  3. Is it when one tank or cyclist moves half an inch over a defined line?
  4. Is it when satellites show missile silos have opened their hatches and engines are warming up?
Prey God (or what ever you believe in) that it is not on the whim of one person who just gets the jitters…  


There is a second part of this question too.. In want form should a preemptive strike take? Do we nuke the bastards straight off or should it be more along the lines on something which will stop what ever the threat is.. (Do we use a missile attack, naval bombardment, air strike or a commando raid to neutralize the foe)..  


(I'm sort of hoping as a by product I may learn more about the Naval use of the US in the Past as I just don't have the on line time to do all the research nor the time to do it either but I'm more thaninterested seeing that the Nepolonic Wars are something I have an interest in, especially the RN.... )






Pavel -> RE: Preemptive Strikes (5/20/2006 4:50:37 PM)

As a starting aside, the US Navy prior to the very late 1900's was rather tiny, and while certainly not lacking in courage, never approached the Royal Navy in size or capability.  That said, it did teach the French not to screw around with us too much (the XYZ affair), and managed to embarass the English on many occasions.  In the age of sail, the USN relied mostly on a few frigates for large engagements (these vessles aquitted themselves quite well), smaller, very ineffective coastal gunboats (as the war of 1812 proved rather handily), and large numbers of privateers. With forces like these, the Navy focused mostly on harassing enemy shipping (as was the case in the  American Revolutionary War, and the War of 1812), and on a kind of high seas gurilla warfare, attacking warships when they were isolated, or otherwise vunderable. The American Civil War saw some use of Naval units, however, the Navy was mostly unionist, and as a result, most of the Naval actions proved rather lopsided.  As historical footnotes, the battle between the CSS Virginia, and USS Monitor would be one of the earliest battles between ironclad-steam powered ships, and the first sinking of a warship by a submersiable. The Union Navy as it was, did play a key role in ensureing the Confederates were not able to secure supplies from abroad, and provideing gunboat support during operations along the coast, or major rivers.  After the end of the war however, most of the Navy was disbanded or mothballed for budget reasons, and it would take several very embarassing incidents in South America, before Congress decided to build a modern, effective navy. 

The American Navy, prior to the Spanish American War, as written by Pavel.  Carrying on however

1. Preemptive action should only be taken when there's a clear and present threat, that will present itself in the very near future.  Examples of when action should have been taken might be say Hitler in 1938 (making clear expanisionist land grabs, violateing the whole not having a military thing left over from World War One).  Of course, then you fall into the problem of when a threat is big enough to worry about it, or not.  It's also essential that the threat is to somthing along the lines of physical security, rather than somthing along the lines of economic issues.

2. If the threat is indeed near, dire, and incomeing, then the response must be such as to eliminate the threat in it's entirety.  If the threat is not dealt with, then it just ensures continueing violence for the future.  The military response should be then adjusted and applied accordingly.  If this means letting loose the dogs of war, then I'd imagine it'd make more sense to do it with maximum force now, to ensure it doesn't just pop up later.





meatcleaver -> RE: Preemptive Strikes (5/20/2006 5:41:39 PM)

It is only since the UN was formed and various charters drawn up have pre-emptive strikes been classed as 'an act of war'. Though really treaties don't hold any legality because there is no court or agency to police countries, though nowadays it is internalionally recognised that pre-emptive strikes are categorically acts of war and criminal The Iraq war fits into this category and it is widely accepted in Europe that the war is illegal and the argument still rages in Britain. Many lawyers in Britain argue that the Iraq war is illegal and Blair and co are international criminals. However, we still live in a world where might is right.

The British did intercept slave ships in their war against slavery which is one of the more positive things about the British Empire, however, they also were quite happy to use 'gunboat diplomacy' such as in the Boxer uprisings and in imposing the cocaine trade on China. One of the more shameful episodes, though cocaine was not illegal in Britain at that point.

The real problem comes with pre-emptive strikes is if you lose a war and you are occupied, something that is highly unlikely if you are one of the continental superpowers such as the USA, Russia or China etc because no country, not even these countries have the forces to occupy any of the other continental powers so they are effectively safe. The US refuses to sign up to the international criminal court because it believes only it should have the power to try its citizens. Which really makes one wonder why the US administration is so keen to try Saddam Hussein. Hypocrisy? Unfortunately that is how it is portrayed in Arab countries with some legitimacy.

As for pre-emptive strikes in the British Empire, the Empire only really officially existed since around 1850 when the government took control of India from private companies because of private corruption and the ethic of Empire duty came into fashion. Before that, the Empire was a product of private enterprise and protected by private armies paid for by the companies. After the vast expence of paying for the protection of the north American colonies in the Seven Year war in Canada and then the war of independence Britain was more or less bankrupt as a state. The navy largely existed and paid for by monies earned in war. Nelson got rich out of the battles with France and you were just as likely to find French sailors on British ships fighting the French as you were Brits. Many crimes laid at the British were actually commited by privateers and private companies and not the British state. Nelson the biggest of heroes in British history and rightfully so, he was a commander of genius was happy not to follow orders as much for the opportunity to get rich as for strategy in war. It was basically the Royal Navy and its fight with the French that allowed the sea lanes to be safe for British trade expansion and keeping Napoleon tied to being a continental power. Not forgetting its endeavours in exporation.

All this has got me wanting to revisit my history books on the Royal Navy which really does have a fascinating history. Up to 1914 from 1690 (?) the Royal Navy only lost one major battle and that was the Battle of Chesapeake to the French which made Britain recognise independence for the American colonies. Rear Admiral Thomas Graves lives on in infamy. The first world war being a significant date because strategies at sea changed and traditional sea battles were no more and navies were used strategically defferently with the emergence of air power.




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