quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Your posts in this thread have asserted the following:

right-wing Ultra-Orthodox Jewish beliefs, to which you subscribe, commonly advocate having Israel destroyed just as Hamas/Hizbullah/Al Qaeda
Its not a point about Zionism

Becoming more specific, you invoke Neturei Karta:

We were talking about ultra-orthodox Jewish opinion (specifically Neturei Karta)
you won't get away with trying to obfuscate and confuse the issue.

As it happens, however, and your insistence to the contrary notwithstanding, Zionism is precisely the point. And only a Zionist ideologue would have any reason to try to "obfuscate and confuse" that central issue.

How so? How have I obfuscated? You don't say at the vital point so once again, despite all your time wasteing links to above posts, we see your posts are devoid of meaning.

To you I am of course a "Zionist ideologue" when I made it clear I was simply making a basic point about the religious on 1 side having values akin to Islamists on the other, which Fargle started the whole thread about, whilst you of course have repeatedly denied that you even support the Palestinians. It says a whole lot about your honesty/integrity.

quote:


Furthermore, neither Jews opposed to Zionism generally nor Neteuri Karta advocate the destruction of the State of Israel or, for that matter, the destruction of anybody anywhere. Those are vile and outrageous lies. Not that I think you give a damn, but I mention it for the sake of anyone who may mistakenly imagine that you are capable of holding an intelligent opinion on the subject.

We are motivated by our concern for the peace and safety of all people throughout the world including those living in the Zionist state. We support and pray for peace for the people of the Zionist state but have no interest in and do not support the Zionist government. ~Jews Against Zionism Mission Statement

NKI seeks peace and reconciliation with all peoples and nations. This is especially needed in our relations towards the Islamic world where Zionism has for 53 years done so much to ruin Jewish - Muslim understanding. ~Neteuri Karta Mission Statement

Thank you for your time.

Ah very well done, you have quoted a Neteuri Karta source to defend them. I suppose I've been proven wrong but then again could it be their own words are a bit misleading?

The Neteuri Karta are pretty much a Jewish equivalent of the Taliban. They are extremely oppressive to women. These people support the gender segregation on buses in Jerusalem. Worse still they are famed for believing the Holocaust on the Jews was deserved for supposedly turning their backs on God, and attended the 2007 Holocuast denial conferences in Iran which is why they are reviled by mainstream Jewish society. So much for not advocating the destruction of peoples anywhere as your "source" attests!

The Neteuri Karta are well known for siding with extremists, and tellingly embrace almost every anti-Semitic conspiracy theory. They are very well known for attending rallies that call for Israel's destruction, and have treated Ahmadinejad (who did call for Israel's destruction despite denials over translations) like a god. It is interesting you defend this bunch.

quote:

The same extremist group greeted Ahmadinejad when he participated in the UN General Assembly in New York in September while other haredi organizations protested his appearance in the UN. These extremists, claiming they belong to Neturei Karta, are also the ones who called on people to pray for a Hizbullah victory during the war in Lebanon in July. In the past they have helped fund Palestinian terrorist groups and attended the funeral of Yasser Arafat... "The call by the Zionists in Palestine and the Jews in the US to boycott Nazi Germany during the war is what pushed Hitler over the top. That is what made him call for the Final Solution," he [Hirsh, a NK leader] explained.

http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1164881888875&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

quote:

Several U.S. Islamic groups announced they are jointly sponsoring a speaking tour for the leader of the Neturei Karta, a fringe ultra-Orthodox extremist segment that advocates the dismantling of Israel, justifies suicide bombings and blames the Holocaust on "Zionists."... The Neturei Karta have spoken publicly at anti-Israel rallies and parades under the banners of Hezbollah and Hamas. During its most recent tour, the group appeared at several colleges and universities, including the University of California at Irvine campus, where it reiterated its support for suicide bombings and suggested that Palestinian terrorism is the moral equivalent of Israel’s efforts to protect its citizens. After Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the founder and spiritual leader of Hamas, was killed in an Israeli military assassination, Weiss memorialized Yassin at a New York ceremony. His group also annually protests the Israel Day Parade in New York.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.printable&pageId=25770

quote:

Neturei Karta is founded on the idea that Zionism is a demonic force responsible for many of the world’s evils. Their spokesmen routinely call for the dismantling of the State of Israel and the empowerment of the Palestinians who would then decide whether to allow any Jews to remain in their new state... Neturei Karta has developed several conspiracy theories to explain the success of Zionism and its own lack of influence; these theories often echo the slanders emanating from radical Islamic groups and New World Order conspiracists.... Zionists have purposely cultivated anti-Semitism throughout the world by issuing statements that non-Jews would find inflammatory and by staging fake acts of anti-Semitic violence as a means of inducing Jews to immigrate to Israel. The most extreme example of this is the claim that Zionists were complicit in the Holocaust in order to force Jews to flee from Europe to Palestine. Neturei Karta propaganda alleges that Zionists intentionally infuriated the German people and fanned the flames of Nazi hatred, and they helped the Nazis, with trickery and deceit, to take whole Jewish communities off to the concentration camps.

http://www.adl.org/extremism/karta/

And yes, whilst your post was the usual hogwash, at least you reminded me of the fact that you purposely destroyed the very thread on Israel back in July that is the topic of discussion through continual personal abuse, and tried to make out through some toddler-esque games that I support mass genocide. For that "I thank you for your time" also.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 9/1/2011 9:52:40 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)

quote:

tried to make out through some toddler-esque games that I support mass genocide.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Well, if the guy can't keep the State of Israel, Nation of Israel and Government of Israel straight, then can we really expect him to understand when people refer to the different entities? All he sees is someone saying something negative against his beloved "Israel" and he can't control his blind hatred of those who have a more traditional, conservative viewpoint.

quote:


Here's a hint. The Nation of Israel has been around a lot longer than either the State of Israel or the Government of Israel, and when The People vote in another Government forming a new State, we'll be here in New York ( and other places ) ensuring that the Nation of Israel survives.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

LOL farglebargle, it was on a deleted thread that existed two months ago as I have repeatedly said but you have echoed these sentiments elsewhere, even on this thread

I'm not fabricating anything, Willbe remembers it too, and in fact you even shot yourself in the foot by repeating virtually the same sentiments here, namely that Israel shouldn't exist because it is against God's will. That is exactly the stance you asserted before which I made clear quite a few posts back http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3829071

quote:


This is just more of your obfuscation by inserting entities that were never relevant to the conversation.

quote:


It was a simple point, certain people wish to see the State of Israel destroyed. You appear to be one.

quote:


May I also remind you that I don't care if you hate Israel. You are entitled to your opinion as I have said to many others who also disagree with me on this issue. I was merely pointing out that you criticise others that have extreme viewpoints that coincide with Islamists whilst possessing sich views yourself. Thats hypocrisy.

quote:


Here's a hint. The Nation of Israel has been around a lot longer than either the State of Israel or the Government of Israel, and when The People vote in another Government forming a new State, we'll be here in New York ( and other places ) ensuring that the Nation of Israel survives.

quote:


Thats more Neturei-Karta-esque religious horseshit that only a small number of extremists believe.

More sane mainstream Jewish orthodox belief has justified Israel's existence through religious scripture. Israel exists - deal with it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
LOL farglebargle, it was on a deleted thread that existed two months ago as I have repeatedly said but you have echoed these sentiments elsewhere, even on this thread

I'm not fabricating anything, Willbe remembers it too, and in fact you even shot yourself in the foot by repeating virtually the same sentiments here, namely that Israel shouldn't exist because it is against God's will. That is exactly the stance you asserted before which I made clear quite a few posts back http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3829071

What the fuck do you mean 'Israel'? Do you mean the extant Government of Israel ruling the State of Israel, The State of Israel itself, or the Nation of Israel?

quote:

quote:


This is just more of your obfuscation by inserting entities that were never relevant to the conversation.

That's where you're completely wrong. Understand this clearly. The 3 different entities enumerated above are wholly distinct, and if you're not intellectually rigorous enough to learn and understand the differences among them, then you're going to continue making a fool out of yourself by trying to map your incorrect understanding onto the real world.

quote:

quote:


It was a simple point, certain people wish to see the State of Israel destroyed. You appear to be one.

That is, of course where you are wrong. As is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer, and as I've ALWAYS FUCKING ASSERTED, you should have known point is, and always has been -- let me make sure you 'get it' this time -- the GOVERNMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL MUST BE REPLACED WITH ONE IN LINE WITH OUR CHERISHED DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES, AMONG THEM, LIFE, LIBERTY, PURFUIT OF HAPPINEFF; ONE HUMAN, ONE VOTE; THE RULE OF LAW; AND EQUAL PROTECTION OF THE LAW

quote:


Now that we've established that you're wrong, and that my criticism has always been aimed at the undemocratic government of the State of Israel, for the record at the next level of resolution, "The State of Israel", I'm a proponent of "Greater Israel". One State Solution, and the solution to the West Bank and Gaza is to annex them and turn them into just another fucking administrative district. Here's your Israeli passport fellas, don't forget to vote....

quote:


And of course, I'm a member of the Nation of Israel in Diaspora until The Messiah comes....

quote:

quote:


May I also remind you that I don't care if you hate Israel. You are entitled to your opinion as I have said to many others who also disagree with me on this issue. I was merely pointing out that you criticise others that have extreme viewpoints that coincide with Islamists whilst possessing sich views yourself. Thats hypocrisy.

Blah, Blah, Blah.... You hate me because I believe that The People have a right to establish and reform government to their best interests... Why do you hate the US Declaration of Independence?

quote:

quote:

quote:


Here's a hint. The Nation of Israel has been around a lot longer than either the State of Israel or the Government of Israel, and when The People vote in another Government forming a new State, we'll be here in New York ( and other places ) ensuring that the Nation of Israel survives.

Thats more Neturei-Karta-esque religious horseshit that only a small number of extremists believe. More sane mainstream Jewish orthodox belief has justified Israel's existence through religious scripture. Israel exists - deal with it. Its a country like any other unless someone happens to believe in your crap. Your beloved NK believe the Holocaust deservely came to the Jews because they turned their backs on God. Arguably they seek to visit another Holocaust on Israeli Jews as they blow Ahmadinejad at every opportunity. It's reported that they even met with nuclear scientists in Iran! What saints.

Hey, how's Herzl's dream of Zionism eliminating Anti-semitism working out?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Skipping over the your humorous WND link (of all sources!) and that hit piece from the ever-trustworthy ADL (can you spell James Rosenberg?), let's take a look at your quote from the Jerusalem Post. I think it will prove educational, though not for you of course. Here's what you posted:

The same extremist group greeted Ahmadinejad when he participated in the UN General Assembly in New York in September while other haredi organizations protested his appearance in the UN. These extremists, claiming they belong to Neturei Karta, are also the ones who called on people to pray for a Hizbullah victory during the war in Lebanon in July. In the past they have helped fund Palestinian terrorist groups and attended the funeral of Yasser Arafat... "The call by the Zionists in Palestine and the Jews in the US to boycott Nazi Germany during the war is what pushed Hitler over the top. That is what made him call for the Final Solution," he [Hirsh, a NK leader] explained.

Now let's ask, what is this "extremist group"? And who is Israel Hirsh? Is this "extremist group" Neteuri Karta? Is Israel Hirsh a Neteuri Karta leader?

The bracketed insert claiming that he is was added by you, of course. It's not in the article. And there is good reason for that, because the article is actually about the opposition of Eda Haredit and Neteuri Karta to the extremists being discussed.

Obviously - thats why I used square brackets. Its a common practice and I provided a link to the original article so there was no effort to fool anyone.

You also infer doubt about Israel Hirsch being a leader. He is a Rabbi as is identified in the article and has featured in numerous articles as an NK spokesman in Israel , e.g. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3338873,00.html and his father was involved with the PLO.

BTW it is comical to criticise WND whilst taking the NK website at its own word. Double standards anyone? I provided three sources to back up my claims. Two weren't ideal but the Neturei Karta are not discussed much in the mainstream media.

quote:

From the link:

The ultra-Orthodox, zealously anti-Zionist Eda Haredit, a Jerusalem-based amalgamate of various hassidic courts and haredi groups, including Neturei Karta, attacked their own peers - those blatantly Jewish-looking participants in the Iranian Holocaust denial conference - for vilifying haredi Jewry in general and Neturei Karta in particular.

Popenheim said the Eda Haredit, which has traditionally been chaired by the head of the Satmar hassidic sect, the ideological parent of Neturei Karta, has so far refrained from issuing an official cherem (excommunication) against the participants in the Holocaust denial conference and those who support them.

"But it is clear to all that their main purpose is not to fight Zionism; rather they are interested in sullying the Eda Haredit's name," said Popenheim, who estimated that there were no more than 10 extremists in Israel who supported participating in the Holocaust conference and about 25 worldwide.

Here you are again uncritically taking the word of an extremist, and represent him almost as if he's a member of the Neturei Karta. He isn't. Clearly Popenheim was afraid of an intense blowback after the visit to Tehran for the conference which made the international media. He said so himself, even going as far as to make up a daft conspiracy theory about it:

quote:

"But it is clear to all that their main purpose is not to fight Zionism; rather they are interested in sullying the Eda Haredit's name," said Popenheim

It was just PR as they are intensely disliked in Israel where they refuse to do military service, refuse to pay tax etc. Besides which Haredit didn't excommunicate these individuals, whilst Popenheim agreed with much of what they believe "in principle" as the article attests. Hardly a devastating rebuttal - do try harder next time!

It is also a joke to suggest only ten of these people exist in Israel, and 25 worldwide. Utter bullshit. Next we'll be hearing that there are 100 Muslims in the US. Neturei Karta are famed for typically having a presence at intensely pro-Palestinian events, some that cross a line into outright anti-Semitism like Durban I and/or obvious dsupport for terrorism. The Neturei Karta haven't any supreme leader but their most famous leader by a big margin is Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss http://www.jta.org/news/article/2006/12/19/14787/Orthodoxcommunityo one of their leading lights who attended the conference in Iran, famously embraced Ahmadinejad etc.

quote:


I think this demonstrates rather clearly, as I may have mentioned previously, that you are a unscrupulous ideologue engaged in misrepresentations of fact and the propagation of vile and outrageous lies.

And you are a liar, no fancy words here bud but its true. You stated that you didn't care if you destroyed the thread on Israel in July, and then had the nerve to deny it two weeks later on the thread about the subject of time. You made false claims about what the captain of the USS Liberty asserted which I smacked down twice. The truth is that you have an issue with me supporting Israel, whilst not having the intellectual honesty to admit you support the Palestinians. People have differing opinions to your own. Grow up and get over it.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 9/1/2011 9:45:52 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Hirsh is reportedly a member of NK, yes, and so is Yisroel Dovid Weiss.

Correction: they are leaders of the NK.

quote:


However, it also true that in almost all of the murders committed in the United States the perpetrator is an American citizen. Following your logic, we might reasonably conclude that America stands for murder, that Americans are murders, and that anyone who claims otherwise is a liar.

That's strawmanning. Your grasp of logic is dubious. Much of the time you can only manage a bit of snark. A principle value of the NK is anti-Zionism. Nothing wrong with that, many Jews are anti-Zionist but they go a lot further. Any Jew who has sympathy with Israel is qualified as an apostate, someone who has turned their back on God. They hold Zionists responsible for most of the world evils like the Holocaust, where the horrid Zionistas pushed the nice Mr. Hitler too far. Don't fucking pretend these are reasonable people.

quote:


Which leads me to observe, if I haven't mentioned it before, that you are an unscrupulous wackjob engaged in misrepresentations of fact and the propagation of vile and outrageous lies.

Aww shucks, what hurtful name calling. You really don't like anyone disagreeing with you, especially on Israel for some reason.

quote:


Neteuri Karta did not send a delegation to the conference, and has attacked those who attended. And Weiss, for his part, says that his actions were misunderstood.

Thats an outright lie. A delegation comprising of several of their leaders went there. Those Haradi that criticised the NK were not NK themselves.

A constant here is that you are defending these inexcusable people. The less charitable would suggest you have an agenda in doing so.

quote:


Yisroel Dovid Weiss, one of five Neturei Karta rabbis who took part in the Tehran conference, said the Jewish world had misunderstood their actions. Speaking to JTA from the Iranian capital on Monday, Weiss said his grandparents had been killed in the Holocaust. He was not in Tehran to give credence to Holocaust denial, he said, but to draw a distinction between Zionists and Jews.

Yours, on the other hand, leave no room for doubt.

Wow, taking the word of these sinister people again are we, and I suppose worshiping the ground of Ahmadinejad was all part of their brilliant plan too?

(in reply to Kirata)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
You made false claims about what the captain of the USS Liberty asserted which I smacked down twice. The truth is that you have an issue with me supporting Israel, whilst not having the intellectual honesty to admit you support the Palestinians.

The only thing you smacked down was what little was left of your credibility at that point, which I doubt was much if any at all.

I suppose I'll have to accept your "opinion" as you expect me to accept the word of NK religious loons that share your ugly polical views?

quote:


Kinda like you're working on doing in this thread, yanno?

And with regard to the Israel-Palestine issue, I am not a "supporter" of either side. I call the shots as I see them.

Yeah, more examples of your integrity. Oh of course you aren't remotely pro-Palestinian even though you only criticise one side EVER and keep attacking one of the few that disagrees. Well we'll have to take your word for it...


< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 9/1/2011 10:05:03 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Kirata is a raving supporter of Palestinianism which is a perfectly OK stance to adopt but in an effort to seem superior he doesn't have the moral courage to ever admit he stands for one side unlike the countless others that hold carbon copies of his views.

I left the quote blank so you can fill it in, and we'll just take your word for everything.

Thanks for the thought. Now we're done and dusted!


< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 9/1/2011 10:11:31 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Why d'ya think they are called the "Christian Taliban"?

Because libtards are incapable of debating them on issues, obv.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Why d'ya think they are called the "Christian Taliban"?

Because libtards are incapable of debating them on issues, obv.

Hardly. I don't know a single person that wouldn't or couldn't debate them on 'the' issues

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The voices in their heads told them to do it.....


"G-d has struck New York and the capital city Washington by an earthquake as a punishment for their disbelief..."

'G-d, You're going to have to fix this.'

'G-d then called me to run'

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras


More obfuscation. I already pointed out repeatedly I am referring to the State of Israel.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

This is getting very tiresome. You are purposely turning this into a debate on Israel which I'm not interested in discussing at this time. You started this stupid thread, try to stay on topic. My point was that you criticised others for having views akin to Islamists but you possess the same. You have repeatedly failed to address this simple point properly.