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RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/1/2011 9:24:23 PM

erieangel

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And which ideas are those Heretic? Repairing our crumbling infrastructure? Or how about funding the research needed to find a viable replacement for the fossil fuels everybody with a brain knows will be depleted at some point in the near future? Or taxing the corporations that take US jobs overseas in order to increase their profit margins? Or educating our youth so that they can compete in the global economy? Or caring for our elderly, our disabled and our ill? How about if we start respecting and supporting the veterans of two current wars?

The republicans have blocked and argued against ideas like these for years--more so in the last 2 1/2 years than any time in my memory. And Reagan gave us an unemployment rate of over 7%, so those republicans ideas don't work.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 61

RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/1/2011 10:22:36 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

And which ideas are those Heretic? Repairing our crumbling infrastructure? got some extra money laying around?

Or how about funding the research needed to find a viable replacement for the fossil fuels everybody with a brain knows will be depleted at some point in the near future?
If and when its viable private business will do it right and without Federal funding

Or taxing the corporations that take US jobs overseas in order to increase their profit margins? You cant tax what isnt here, and its taxes in a large part that drive them away

Or educating our youth so that they can compete in the global economy?

Pissing money away doesnt educate anybody and thats exactly what the Feds do when they get involved with education

Or caring for our elderly, our disabled and our ill?
Then make sure Obamacare is repealed, because hes the one who pulled $500 million out of medicare

How about if we start respecting and supporting the veterans of two current wars?

What makes you think that isnt being done

The republicans have blocked and argued against ideas like these for years--more so in the last 2 1/2 years than any time in my memory. The Republicans couldnt block a fucking thing for 2 years. If it didnt get done, its the Dems who knew it was bullshit to start with

And Reagan gave us an unemployment rate of over 7%, so those republicans ideas don't work.

Reagan gave us unprecedented peacetime economic growth until largely Democrat policies pushed us into crisis

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to erieangel)

Post #: 62

RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/1/2011 10:40:30 PM

TheHeretic

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Spin, spin, spin, Erie. I'm not opposed to stimulus spending in any form, but we need to get something lasting out of the deal. Are you really going to try and talk about investing in green energy tech, when a solar company this administration guaranteed half a billion in loans for, just went belly up? Or maybe you think the reason it failed is because our social model isn't close enough to the Chinese? More authoritarianism anyone?

What we need is a kick in the confidence, and what we have is a President who doesn't inspire much of that.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 63

RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/2/2011 3:33:46 AM

StrangerThan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Spin, spin, spin, Erie. I'm not opposed to stimulus spending in any form, but we need to get something lasting out of the deal. Are you really going to try and talk about investing in green energy tech, when a solar company this administration guaranteed half a billion in loans for, just went belly up? Or maybe you think the reason it failed is because our social model isn't close enough to the Chinese? More authoritarianism anyone?

What we need is a kick in the confidence, and what we have is a President who doesn't inspire much of that.

What we also have is a president who spends a lot of time talking like a moderate, then closeting himself with people who are anything but. The truth is I could probably handle Obama if you could strip away the layers of liberals that surround him like those on a rotting onion. These are some of the oiliest panhandlers that have ever walked the face of the earth, and people who dare to call themselves public servants. They are the same people who will tax the fuck out of anyone who works, smile while they're doing it, and run off to those who don't to tell them look, I have more money for your programs. Vote for me!

Fucking scum. I wouldn't shit for them to eat if they were starving.

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Post #: 64

RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/2/2011 4:32:07 AM

Sanity

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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Nah, he will probably take his boot off the throat of affordable energy first

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

A jobs speech?
Surely the first thing Oblunder will address is getting us out of any and all "free-trade" deals him having a "162 i.q".,.....right?
Or is this going to be a cheer leading speech for spending even more money that we don't have?
You can't spend your way out of poverty.

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 65

RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/2/2011 8:15:16 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Are you really going to try and talk about investing in green energy tech, when a solar company this administration guaranteed half a billion in loans for, just went belly up? Or maybe you think the reason it failed is because our social model isn't close enough to the Chinese?

ha There was another thread and people were touting how many jobs some of these solar mfg companies were going to create and compete with Asian mfg companies. I disagreed so this just proves my point. It just doesnt make financial sense, even with govt money behind them... and it took half a billion for them to figure this all out, huh?

lol Oh well, a fool and your money..

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Post #: 66

RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/2/2011 8:42:21 AM

MileHighM

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The solar company is a great example. Subsidies aside for the moment, he wants to do something other than another pass the buck speech, ditch anti-colonialist global redistribution crap and talk about holding asia responsible.

1. You tarriff chinese goods (nothting big 10-20%). We don't export shit to china, can't start a trade war. It would help ensure american companies have a better chance of competing in America, while complying with American laws. Bonus, it would help close the budget gap.

2. Tell China, India, etc, if they want to avoid tarriffs and have open trade in the US they need to adopt stricter labor and environmental regulations. That would, at least, level the playing field for us in this country. Until then, their shit gets taxed.

We need some protections for our standard of living in this country. However, we can't just have jobs and opportunity bailing on us. Free trade works in fair and equal markets. Let's even shit up.

My prediction though:
Obama will spout rhetoric with no clear plan. The speech will be generally unoffensive except to the teapartiers. There will be no new ideas on how to create more jobs. He will not offer any specific leadership. In the end, he will demand that congress do something about it. Possibly tell them to work with Biden. He will pass the buck and the blame instead of taking the reins.

I just hope I am wrong......This is no time for limp dick leadership

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 67

RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/2/2011 1:25:17 PM

tj444

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tariffs?.. thats just another word for tax.. guess what.. if you do that and its too high they will simply move mfg to another poor country that doesnt have tariff sanctions against it.. The big retailers will see to that.. they want to keep those roll-back prices..

Even if it did raise the cost of goods from China, etc, then nothing would change other than the govt will have more $ to spend unwisely and consumers will be the ones bearing the brunt of it... and since the Buy American advertising campaign failed miserably, consumers will still buy the cheaper priced products.. imo, there is no way for wages at $20/hr can compete with 50cents per hour.. which explains why Evergreen solar moved mfg to china recently... guess rather that than go bankrupt..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to MileHighM)

Post #: 68

RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/2/2011 1:43:00 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

tariffs?.. thats just another word for tax.. guess what.. if you do that and its too high they will simply move mfg to another poor country that doesnt have tariff sanctions against it..

Exactly. I think MHM's central point of leveling the playing field is right, just that tariffs arent the way to do it. It has to start with consumers demanding the same quality that they can get from US goods, ensuring that US safety standards are met by imports, and a tax structure that is competitive with the rest of the world and without social engineering via the tax code and regulations.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 69

RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/2/2011 1:45:36 PM

MileHighM

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Yeah well what do you propose? once the wealth has significantly transfered, we are no longer the consumer, and we are the poor bastards working in the sweatshops for 50cents an hour.

Production isn't going to and can't move to places like africa. They have neither the infrastructure or capable workforce to meet demand. The ultimate goal is to level the playing field. China subsidizes certain products, and it refuses to implement basic labor and environmental reforms. Labor wouldn't be 50 cents an hour if the ball game was leveled. Now that they are industrialized they need to feel the modern pains of supporting a healthy middle class

Americans can afford the higher prices if they have the fucking jobs and get paid for it. The truth is global free trade has done nothing but screw us. The reason being, we done live in an apples to apples world. The system is currently set up to hose the middleclass in the developed countries, keep the poor in the developing countries poor while making the rich in both richer. This is not as much corporate greed as much as it is a clear means of government power consoldation.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 70

RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/2/2011 1:47:44 PM

MileHighM

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Joined: 10/8/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

tariffs?.. thats just another word for tax.. guess what.. if you do that and its too high they will simply move mfg to another poor country that doesnt have tariff sanctions against it..

Exactly. I think MHM's central point of leveling the playing field is right, just that tariffs arent the way to do it. It has to start with consumers demanding the same quality that they can get from US goods, ensuring that US safety standards are met by imports, and a tax structure that is competitive with the rest of the world and without social engineering via the tax code and regulations.

You ain't going to get the consumer to do so because there is such a disparity in price. We can afford to be disposable with the Chinese shit. So, until that gap closes a little, the consumer won't care.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 71

RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/2/2011 1:59:53 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Yes, I'll watch. I think it will be very interesting because he has two paths to follow, neither one of which will enhance his position. He either repeats the same old attacks on corporations and the wealthy, calls for more deficit spending and "shovel ready jobs" that he already admitted doesnt exist, or he becomes a Clintonesque centrist, which will make him swallow his own bile.

No, I think, he'll announce a new Medicare benefit for those people over 65 that will only be another windfall for corporate health care, invasion of Iran with ground troops using the whole military, another windfall for the war-profiteers, new steel and lumber tariffs, to provide another windfall for those corporate types, a corporate and income tax cut, to create jobs [sic] and all magically all free.

Well our kids and their kids and their kids and their kids...can pay for it. See how easy it is to 'enhance' your position ?

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 72

RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/2/2011 2:06:31 PM

tj444

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well, as long as i have been alive there have been products made in Japan, China, etc.. a company having goods produced in other countries has always been there..

The US did have those jobs and good wages,.. but its those people that have been buying those goods not made in the US. No one forced you to buy those things... and some of those made in the US products were of lower quality than those developed and produced elsewhere..

I dont know what to say, what is Texas (with 1/3rd of all new US jobs) doing that most other states arent doing?

And,.. given the way the govt operates, you know, with guns raised raiding legit US businesses (Gibson Guitar, Food Co-ops, even kids lemonade stands), what crazy business person wants to start any kinda business in the US? Its a whole fuck of a lot easier to mfg goods in a more co-operative and business friendly country..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 9/2/2011 2:14:32 PM >

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to MileHighM)

Post #: 73

RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/2/2011 2:14:28 PM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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I *nailed* it

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3831496

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Nah, he will probably take his boot off the throat of affordable energy first

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

A jobs speech?
Surely the first thing Oblunder will address is getting us out of any and all "free-trade" deals him having a "162 i.q".,.....right?
Or is this going to be a cheer leading speech for spending even more money that we don't have?
You can't spend your way out of poverty.

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 74

RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/2/2011 2:14:43 PM

MileHighM

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Yet many of those jobs in Texas are part time and minimum wage---that isn't going to spurn the economy.

Japanese were once cheap and shitty. Now they are expensive and quality. Unless they are cheap, then they were made in china by a japanese corp like everything else. The invasion of Japanese consumer products in the 70s-80s exposed the quality issues in American goods. By the early 90's US goods came a long way in quality and reliability. That was fair market competition. The China situation is different. That is a deregulation of trade laws that permitted US companies to pack up and move. Also Japan respects copyright and patent laws. China doesn't give a fuck. This is not a free market debate, this is trade anarchy versus regular trade.

< Message edited by MileHighM -- 9/2/2011 2:19:57 PM >

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 75

RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/2/2011 2:26:14 PM

tj444

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Walmart doesnt give a fuck either... they and US companies like them and that have to compete with them are responsible for buying those Chinese goods. Its not consumers per se since consumers dont decide, its Walmart purchasing dept, etc that decides..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to MileHighM)

Post #: 76

RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/2/2011 2:40:39 PM

MileHighM

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I agree...as I said, we made it so they could leave and set up shop there (Walmart forced many of it suppliers to move to China, they didn't just start buying chinese product). However, what are you going to do about it? The Chinese don't respect US and international IP (intellectual property) laws. The only way a US company protects it is to move to China.

Everyone bitches about WallyWorld, yet they still shop there. Stop shopping they will die. Yet since no one can afford shit cause all the jobs went to China you have to shop at Wallyworld cause it is the only way some afford to feed and cloth their children. I hate old Wally and avoid it like the plague. Wally is responding to consumer greed for low low prices. Guess what though it aint just Wally. Walk into REI (Overpriced outdoor good made like shit, thats what is has become), all their shit is now made in China, same with Home Depot, Lowes, Macy's, Sears, Target, Petsmart, etc. etc. I buy New Balance because they are made in America, and are better made than shit chinese shoes. But I am one man, I can't change the market without some help.

I advocated the Tarriff because of its simplicity. Not some large complicated regulatory nightmare. This is not taxing Americans, this is taxing foreign economies for engaging in predatory behavior. Companies will move back to avoid the tarriff. The chinese can't do shit about it because we sell nothing to them but raw scrap materials. Calling in our debt is way to risk for them. It is a win win. all will be better.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 77

RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/2/2011 2:52:28 PM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Its not Walmart, its the consumer

People want value, and they get more of it from foreign sources.

Example - for the longest time nobody in their right mind would buy a domestic car or truck, despite the added costs of shipping things thousands of miles things are a better value when theyre made somewhere else

A lot of it has to do with outrageous union demands, much of it is due to overly burdensome complex and costly governmental regulations, there is plenty of blame to go around

Until we can house in order though, until we can compete, we are fucked

quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

I agree...as I said, we made it so they could leave and set up shop there (Walmart forced many of it suppliers to move to China, they didn't just start buying chinese product). However, what are you going to do about it? The Chinese don't respect US and international IP (intellectual property) laws. The only way a US company protects it is to move to China.

Everyone bitches about WallyWorld, yet they still shop there. Stop shopping they will die. Yet since no one can afford shit cause all the jobs went to China you have to shop at Wallyworld cause it is the only way some afford to feed and cloth their children. I hate old Wally and avoid it like the plague. Wally is responding to consumer greed for low low prices. Guess what though it aint just Wally. Walk into REI (Overpriced outdoor good made like shit, thats what is has become), all their shit is now made in China, same with Home Depot, Lowes, Macy's, Sears, Target, Petsmart, etc. etc. I buy New Balance because they are made in America, and are better made than shit chinese shoes. But I am one man, I can't change the market without some help.

I advocated the Tarriff because of its simplicity. Not some large complicated regulatory nightmare. This is not taxing Americans, this is taxing foreign economies for engaging in predatory behavior. Companies will move back to avoid the tarriff. The chinese can't do shit about it because we sell nothing to them but raw scrap materials. Calling in our debt is way to risk for them. It is a win win. all will be better.

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to MileHighM)

Post #: 78

RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/2/2011 2:56:55 PM

willbeurdaddy

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Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

That is a deregulation of trade laws that permitted US companies to pack up and move.

Exactly what trade laws were deregulated and when?

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to MileHighM)

Post #: 79

RE: No, that doesn't work for us. - 9/2/2011 3:00:17 PM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

I advocated the Tarriff because of its simplicity. Not some large complicated regulatory nightmare. This is not taxing Americans, this is taxing foreign economies for engaging in predatory behavior.

If there is predatory behavior it has to be met with outright bans, not tariffs. Tariffs IS taxing Americans, because it just adds to the price they pay. There is plenty of room for price increases in the demand curve for the types of products coming from China, and until the total price reaches those levels, they are taxes on Americans.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to MileHighM)

Post #: 80

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