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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/22/2006 7:35:53 AM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
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As usual, LA advice is spot on. As someone who has played a lot in public this sort of thing happens. Throw your head back and let it pass. People who cause drama do so for only so long before, like Peter the wolf, nobody listens to them anymore.

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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/22/2006 7:48:07 AM

iliv2servher

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It sounds like you did everything by the book, so to speak. And you have witnesses to back up your story. But you can never know anyone's experience and level of play until you actually take the plunge and play with them.

Some say that you should never play with someone on a first encounter with them. This is probably good advice. But you also need to talk to others in order to find out if they have had any experience with this person. You need character references, but more than that you need references from others (people in the scene who you know and trust) and those who have actually played with this person before (if only to determine the background and experience of the person in question).

And on the subject of gossip, this is the single most damaging thing that you can experience while in a group, and it is almost impossible to reverse. Anyone can be slandered, even under the best of conditions; and even in your case of having done everything right. People will talk, but time and building a good reputation usually takes care of this.

I guess the bottom line is that you can never be too careful.

< Message edited by iliv2servher -- 5/22/2006 7:57:18 AM >

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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/22/2006 9:01:51 AM

Proprietrix

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I think the problem here lies with the submissive. I really can't understand why anyone would feel otherwise. I feel the submissive misrepresented him/herself in the first place, and certainly by calling him/herself a "pain slut". Even one who has been around the scene for several months, attending real time events, without having played, should realize that term's connotations. The submissive here approached the Dominant, asking for the scene. Negotiations took place. Consent was given. The scene overlooked. The Dominant checked in.

What's this with feeling abused and trust broken? If anything, it seems to me the submissive is the one who broke trust by not being honest in the first place and failing to communicate.
My advice to the sub in question: You made your bed, you lie in it. You learned something about yourself. Move on. To discredit the reputation of the Dominant (if that's what was meant by the OP), is childish and a classic case of blame-shifting. Take responsibility for your actions, including the actions of misrepresenting yourself and failing to communicate.
I agree with smilezz. I wouldn't allow her back (at least for a certain amount of time.) She shows character that condones not being responsible for individual actions, and blame-shifting. That's a quick way to destroy a group.

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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/22/2006 12:01:32 PM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Scenario:

Submissive who has been seen in regular attendance at several events and claims "x" # of active years in the lifestyle and identifies as a pain slut approaches a Dominant who they wish to scene with. Extensive negotiations take place and all that the scene will entail is discussed and consented to. The scene gets played out and is DM'd by experienced people. Dominant checks in frequently with submissive to make sure all is well. Scene seems to go nicely without a hitch, not an overly intense scene...middle of the road.

Day after submissive is not happy with how the scene went. Turns out that their experience in the lifestyle has been limited to attending events....but that they had never actually played. Did not relate this fact or stop scene for fear of looking foolish but now in hindsight feels that it all went farther than what they were capable of handling. Does not like the physical feelings and soreness of the day after and feels abused. Feels that trust was broken. Word spreads fast in community and there are some "intense" opinions. Reputations are on the line.

Were you living in Denver 4 years ago? Seriously...this scenario could have been mine at that time. It happened with someone I had met at a different site, who then moved to Colorado (her job, not me...we'd had lost touch with each other). She contacted me and asked her to meet her. We went out for coffee and dinner several times, then one weekend made our way to the meeting place for Scarlet Moons (wonder if that still exists). We'd negotiated, began playing, everything hunky-dory, next day ==== BOOM!!! The only thing that saved my reputation was that several there knew me previously and the scene took place publicly. Also, I chose not to get into a public debate over it.

quote:

Ok, now the question....how do you stop yourself from getting caught in a scenario like this?

I make it a point to only play with submissives I have seen play, those I've known for a period of time longer than an evening, or those who, when asked whether or not there is someone I can call right then to find out about a scene they've participated in...for my safety and theirs...have no problem giving me a name and number.

quote:

If we can only go by the information provided to us...how would we be able to foresee the impending train wreck? Lastly, what do you do about damage control after everything has blown up?

As someone else noted...the train wreck occurred despite negotiations, dungeon monitors, the dominant checking in with the submissive, etc. Perhaps, as someone else noted, taking note of the fact that she had never been seen playing and, in addition to that, asking her whether or not she had done these things (despite her claim of being a pain slut...it is easy to claim being anything). Even with all that though, you face the danger of a liar (at worst) or someone dangerously reluctant to admit their newness (at best). As for damage control, all I can recommend is letting your reputation speak for you, speak the truth, and refer to the DMs who monitored the scene.

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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/22/2006 1:38:24 PM

Bearlee

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Well, Sir...your reputation must be speaking for itself, because our 'mutual friend' said he's met you several times and that the 'mutual friend' you two know speaks quite highly of you. So, perhaps no damage was done...

For me...that is the lesson to be learned; Play with people you know, and/or have friends there who will speak for that person...then play in 'public' the first time and have the DM pay close attention. That must be the only way.

For the folks who speak up with "I don't have this problem because I won't play with anybody except my partner"...what of your time BEFORE you had a partner? What of your time WHILE getting to know your partner? Are we right back to staying virgin till the wedding night?

As far as train wrecks go...I've seen them happen right on these boards; someone reading a post incorrectly and just exploding at another! It's a shame...and I admire people who just let it roll off their backs (something I struggle with).

I've heard of such stories, where either the submissive or the Dominant gets what I've heard called the 'Sickfuck Syndrome'...where they get up and see bruises and wonder just how sick they must be! I think it's THAT that freaks 'em... How can a Dominant, who keeps 'checking in' on a submissive who never seems in duress possibly be 'in the wrong'? I agree...ban that person till s/he grows up! JMHO

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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/22/2006 6:07:49 PM

KnightofMists

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The sad fact... this situation is rather common. I suspect that ever community has had something of this sort occur at least once.

All anyone can judge is what occur within the scene itself. NO one can express with any confidence the negotiations that occurred, unless they participated in the negotiations themselves. So label them extensive negotiations or not... it really is of little value unless both parties that did the negotiating would consider it to be extensive negotiations. If they do indeed consider it extensive... then why did the play go wrong for the bottom? To many individuals want to believe in the illusion that safe words and great negotiations will keep one from these very situations. Fact is... you have to Trust that the people involved will negotiate in good-faith and will apply the so-called safe-words if needed. At the end of it... extensive negotiations will not ever be successful if one or both is negotiating in bad-faith. No safe word is useful if one will not use it or even simply communicate that things are wrong for them.

Now... Smilez makes a really good point.... has anyone seen this bottom play? Obviously not. Was experience of the bottom even question when the negotiations occurred? If it wasn't; shame on the Top. However, even if he asked... would the bottom give a straight answer? If she wouldn't use a safe word for looking foolish while play was occurring.... would she tell the Top that she has no experience but has been claiming herself a Pain Slut. Here is the huge problem of people trying to live to labels, instead of just being who they are with integrity. Establish a label and then one needs to go and demonstrate the truth.... if they are lucky, they can walk the talk.. if not more than a few will get hurt in the process.

How can you stop yourself from getting into this. Simple question, but no simple answer. Personally, Know the Character of a person, know their history and experiences, share experiences with them slowly. And then “MAYBE” you will stay out of such a mess.

If it happens, well personally I would stay out of the gossiping or defending/attacking mode. People are going to think and believe whatever they want. They will also let their personal feelings affect sound judgment. I suspect that all that are defending the bottom are those she has befriend. I also suspect that those that dislike the Top the most are also the loudest against him.

But, the simple truth is. The scene was public. It was DM’d by experience individuals watching for a safe call or unsafe situation. No Stop or safe word was called or unsafe activities noticed. The TOP throughout the play was checking on the bottom to ensure she was ok. The play itself wasn’t all that intense. Middle of the road! I dare say the bottom walked away and likely spoke rather positively of the play as well. So what was wrong with the play… NOTHING! What is wrong IS the bottom having regrets. Regrets based on her own deception. She made her bed… NOW sleep in it. Ironically, this situation was very similar to a play here. The bottom started to making outlandish comments towards the Top as well as the DM’s. The problem was with her! Of course, she wasn’t a person I would dare play with in any capacity, It felt good to have my instincts validated.

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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/22/2006 7:01:24 PM

dogobedience

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The newness is the factor. It is very difficult for me to judge what your reactions will be the next day. IF I am cognizant of the persons newness, then I will be MORE MENTAL then physical.

AFTERCARE would and will help.For some it extends to the next day or two....seldom will you get that in public play.It takes time to build you up and bring you back, only those skilled will invest the time in that.

As to damage control, IF everybody knew you were new, and it sounds like the dom was easy on you, to a degree (also remember MANY get caught up in public play and lose sight of total control of the girl.........simply talking to you, asking if you are ok, is not enough..you are in no position to make sense), then you should have been given EXPERT aftercare.........to not do so shows a lack of ability on everybody's part............you were simply played and left for DEAD!!!!!

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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/22/2006 8:01:28 PM

mistoferin

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I should indeed jump back in here and clear up a few things.

First, the scenario was indeed an actual event. It occurred a while back and has pretty much been resolved. It is not the first time that I have seen this happen....nor I am quite sure will it be the last. I do want to clarify that it was not me in the scene as some seemed to have gotten that somehow. I did not specify the genders of either the submissive or Dominant because it indeed was a real occurence and I don't wish to in any way identify the individuals involved.

I posted it because I think it is a classic example of how very wrong things can go, even when you think you are doing everything right. The submissive in question had been a regular attendee but had always been one of those ones you see on the sidelines. No, no one had ever seen them play....but after as much time had gone by as there was...they were taken at their word and it was assumed that they were just not much into PUBLIC play.

The negotiations were actually carried out at a table with several people in attendance. The submissive was allowed to pick the activities that they stated they were most fond of for the scene. Over and over they stated they were a pain slut and ultimately they chose flogging and caning as the primary activities. The Dominant had a long and honorable reputation. That as it turned out, was the saving grace. The scene was attended by not one, but two DM's with many years experience. The Dominant explained every action throughout the scene and checked in frequently. The submissive throughout the scene kept assuring the Dominant that they were indeed fine. They did not go to subspace...the scene was a slow one and there were frequent breaks for explanations and check ins. The intensity was as I said...middle of the road. Absolutely nothing that any of the 20 or so people watching it saw out of order.

After the scene there was some debriefing and what appeared to be a very happy and satisfied submissive by all accounts. The Dominant checked in via telephone with the submissive several times a day for the next few days. Unbeknownst to the Dominant, the bad press started the day after the scene...but word of it did not reach their ears until the following week.

Things fairly well blew up. The rumor mill started to churn. A submissive talking about being abused is not something taken lightly within a community. As I said, the saving grace was the Dominant's reputation and also the fact that in time the submissive admitted that the scene had been their first actual play experience and as it turned out was not what they had been expecting it to be like and did not fit the picture they had dreamed up in their fantasy.

My point of this is that when people are not honest about themselves and their level of experience, things can get very ugly very fast. Feelings are hurt. Reputations damaged. ALL of this could have been avoided by simple open and honest communication on the part of the submissive. The Dominant would have most likely agreed to scene with them...however, with the knowledge of it being their very first scene it would have been conducted much differently.

The other thing that I would like for people to take away from this is the understanding that a reputation can be very important. This Dominant, had they NOT had such a good reputation, may not have walked away as cleanly. The submissive has very effectively made a reputation for themself in this one instance as not being capable of operating on a level of honesty and trust that has and will continue to take time to overcome.

Just be honest folks. No one is ever going to knock you or look down upon you for admitting your inexperience. The alternative can be quite messy.

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Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/22/2006 8:14:12 PM

dogobedience

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As to a fix, it is difficult in a largely ungoverned world to fix this. EVERYBODY is right...and the new one is unfulfilled. The train wreck keeps on happening IF you stay there, seek out a SMARTER group!!!!!!!!!!

You will never change them, and unless the "skilled one's" have the ability to listen and (OMG !) learn, then it will happen over and over.

I am not perfect, however intelligent people seek out better practices and LISTEN TO ALL, same are right, others wrong, but they listen.....and improve..

_____________________________

I start and/or reply to posts to further my abilities and share my experiences in this fantastic lifestyle.

I hope I am an intellectual instigator, making people think and or laugh and nothing more.

Tiger, proud owner of kali aka Tigerproperty

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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/22/2006 9:07:01 PM

LadyHugs

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Dear mistoferin, Ladies and Gentlemen;

First, I like to thank you for this thread, as it is indeed a problem repeated throughout the lifestyle, BDSM, S&M and D/s and or M/s.

My reading of the original post, I see some things jump out at me as a red or at least a yellow flag. The scenario as written, the negotiations by both parties just didn't go far enough. It went further than most people do before a scene.

My major red flag/yellow flag has been attendance at several events, active years in the lifestyle and identifies as a pain slut. It is always my personal alert button, when somebody starts off with attending several events, then active in the lifestyle x amout of years and identifies as a pain slut. In negotiations for a scene, I ask if they have actually felt [insert the type toys/tools used]. I also ask how it felt. If somebody has book learned and or watched scenes but never did a scene, they cannot express what sensations they cause in broad general terms.

This is why I go through a check list with individuals. First, anybody can attend events.
That is like having somebody sit pool side and say that they're a competition swimmer.
There are many people who are active in the scene but, does not mean they have had scenes. Some are the grunt sort but, just don't scene however, they make it possible for others to enjoy scenes and the lifestyle. Some people don't use corporal in their M/s and or D/s relationship and or lifestyle. So, I need to ask.

Sadly, it is a good possibility that the submissive wanted to belong. Perhaps the submissive didn't want to have the dominant loose interest and wanted to have a taste of what it feels like but, really didn't look into the risks or the delayed responses.

Unfortunately, dominants feel the brunt of anything that goes wrong. Most times it is unfair and more of a personality conflict rather than any technical skills and after care gone wrong.

I feel very bad for anybody dragged through the "drama" of which communication, miscommunication, understanding, misunderstanding and what ever else is added into the mix, as to make the final scenario. Heavens, I am clear on the other side of the map and my reputation besmirched based on their personality conflict and personal displeasure, rather on any real facts, no first hand knowledge, never witnessed and never met me. So, for somebody to falsely accuse somebody they don't like is rather easy; just as much as for a private and or public scene gone bad.

That said, I prefer meeting an individual and go over what actual experiences they have had. I've known individuals who count time on the computer, role playing M/s or D/s and or whatever they're doing, as "years in the scene." I've come across some that have had one scene twenty years ago, untouched until week before last weekend and say they have twenty years in the scene. One day in twenty years--Is about as effective as air-brakes on a turtle.

Being new at anything should not be dismissed as being ugly or not acceptable. I can understand why people fib, as I have seen some pretty mean people towards novices.
Perhaps it should be considered, that the community at large needs to have an attitude adjustment and or behavior modification; as to promote honesty and kindness towards scene virgins and novices. If the community at large is creating the toxic enviorment which compels the virgin/novice to 'fib' about their experiences, as to be accepted and get the experiences without having to run a marathon of requirments to join a clique--
It would be to the best interest to all, that accepting and laying a better foundation to communications, negotiations and risk awareness needs to be enhanced. In summary,
the BDSM support and education groups and the community at large, needs to take away the excuses to fib about experiences.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/22/2006 11:42:52 PM

Wolfie648

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Prolly not what you're looking for (but then when do I ever provide that ;-)

"Miscommunication and skewed expectations"

Happens to everyone. Learn (i.e. tell them it's ok to stop - have a monitor close enough to hear their response). Minimize damage (i.e. talk to everyone that you know that witnessed it esp. the organisers)

D (owner of j).

edit typo fixed

< Message edited by Wolfie648 -- 5/22/2006 11:43:37 PM >

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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/23/2006 8:24:48 AM

mistoferin

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LadyHugs,

Thank you for you well thought out response. I believe that you are correct. The lies were most likely told in an effort to fit in, not look foolish and be taken seriously. I don't believe that it is a problem that is exclusive to this lifestyle. I think that in many interests and areas of life there will be people who will overstate their experience so that they can "fit". Unfortunately, in this arena even the smallest of misrepresentations can have devastating consequence.

As to the negotiations, I can not answer whether or not the submissive was specifically asked questions to try to ascertain if they could indeed verbalize the sensations of the various forms of play. The only thing that I know is that they related that these activities were things they had experienced, were comfortable with and enjoyed.

Thank you once again for your input.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 5/23/2006 8:26:56 AM >

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Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/23/2006 8:44:57 AM

amayos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Day after submissive is not happy with how the scene went. Turns out that their experience in the lifestyle has been limited to attending events....but that they had never actually played. Did not relate this fact or stop scene for fear of looking foolish but now in hindsight feels that it all went farther than what they were capable of handling. Does not like the physical feelings and soreness of the day after and feels abused. Feels that trust was broken. Word spreads fast in community and there are some "intense" opinions. Reputations are on the line.

Ok, now the question....how do you stop yourself from getting caught in a scenario like this? If we can only go by the information provided to us...how would we be able to foresee the impending train wreck? Lastly, what do you do about damage control after everything has blown up?

I know many will no doubt disagree, but my personal strategy for avoiding a complication like this is simple: avoid clubs and the people in them. Fostering a rich and structured environment privately among two, three or a select group is far better. Sounds rather like a coven, I know, but it's the only way I socialize among owners and slaves.

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