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Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/8/2011 10:10:33 AM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline 		Once buffed by Obama as an example of his handiwork, and the recipent of over half a billion dollars in loan guarantees, the solar panel maker Solyndra, which had 1100 employees has filed for bankruptcy and is now being investigated by the US Government -

quote:

FBI agents are executing search warrants at the headquarters of California solar panel maker Solyndra, which received more than $500 million in federal loan guarantees before filing for bankruptcy last week.

FBI spokesman Peter Lee says agents executed multiple search warrants Thursday at the company's Fremont headquarters as part of an investigation with the Department of Energy.


Feds execute search warrants at Calif. solar firm

Ouch. So even one of the Obama crown jewels is going down. It is one thing to go bankrupt but a whole other to have the FBI showing up to investigate it.
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RE: Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/8/2011 11:13:58 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Another American manufacturer done in by cheap Chinese Imports.

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

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RE: Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/8/2011 1:31:52 PM   
MileHighM


Posts: 400
Joined: 10/8/2009
Status: offline 		See a Shovel Ready.....right for the grave 6 feet under

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RE: Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/8/2011 1:35:18 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Another American manufacturer done in by cheap Chinese Imports.


built using stolen IP and buffered by currency manipulation.

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and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/8/2011 5:02:52 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

built using stolen IP and buffered by currency manipulation.



Do you have a link ?

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RE: Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/8/2011 6:24:08 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Well, the more interesting aspect here is how this marginal to begin with company was shepherded through the approval on that half billion dollar loan by the White House.  Billionaire George Kaiser was both a big fundraiser for Obama in '08, and a big holder in the company.  We'll see where all that goes.

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RE: Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/8/2011 8:25:15 PM   
FirstQuaker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Well, the more interesting aspect here is how this marginal to begin with company was shepherded through the approval on that half billion dollar loan by the White House.  Billionaire George Kaiser was both a big fundraiser for Obama in '08, and a big holder in the company.  We'll see where all that goes.


Undoubtedly.

That is a lot of money (~500K USD/employee) to just disappear in a year, and it (the matter of the company and it's bankruptcy along with the background)  won't be going away.

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RE: Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/8/2011 8:40:20 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		The US solar industry is showing what happens when you let a competitor get the jump on you. All of the US mfg had to scale up too soon- the manufacturing processes for thin film solar are not well worked out. China has been manufacturing silicon PV technology- and they've been improving it, while the US focused on next gen technologies, because our lead in silicon evaporated after the 1980s.

Blaming Obama for Solyndra's failure is idiotic. The real problem is the lack of a US energy policy and the idea that we can throw money at a problem and make up for lost time instantly. Well, often that doesn't work and Solyndra and Evergreen Solar's failure is yet another example of an immature technology taking on a mature technology and losing. This isn't to say that Solyndra's technology is potentially superior- it just hasn't had enough maturation time. We don't know how to make large area thin films that are robust enough for PV applications- and the way we've done it cost a bloody fortune. Gotta walk before you can run.

But the real blame should be laid at previous administrations (and I of course like to put it on Ronnie Rayguns) which squandered the US research lead by idealogical grandstanding instead of coming up with military/gov't contracts that would have allowed the technology to be developed over the time period it's needed. The dumbest thing we can do now though, is to conclude that China's just got us whupped and we're going to have to buy solar cells from them. We should learn from these mistakes and figure out how to do it right next time. But when you play catch up like this- yeah, it's gonna be expensive.


Sam

< Message edited by samboct -- 9/8/2011 8:41:34 PM >

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RE: Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/8/2011 8:47:08 PM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

The US solar industry is showing what happens when you let a competitor get the jump on you. All of the US mfg had to scale up too soon- the manufacturing processes for thin film solar are not well worked out. China has been manufacturing silicon PV technology- and they've been improving it, while the US focused on next gen technologies, because our lead in silicon evaporated after the 1980s.

Blaming Obama for Solyndra's failure is idiotic. The real problem is the lack of a US energy policy and the idea that we can throw money at a problem and make up for lost time instantly. Well, often that doesn't work and Solyndra and Evergreen Solar's failure is yet another example of an immature technology taking on a mature technology and losing. This isn't to say that Solyndra's technology is potentially superior- it just hasn't had enough maturation time. We don't know how to make large area thin films that are robust enough for PV applications- and the way we've done it cost a bloody fortune. Gotta walk before you can run.

But the real blame should be laid at previous administrations (and I of course like to put it on Ronnie Rayguns) which squandered the US research lead by idealogical grandstanding instead of coming up with military/gov't contracts that would have allowed the technology to be developed over the time period it's needed. The dumbest thing we can do now though, is to conclude that China's just got us whupped and we're going to have to buy solar cells from them. We should learn from these mistakes and figure out how to do it right next time. But when you play catch up like this- yeah, it's gonna be expensive.


Sam


Who says I am blaming Obama for it?

Nor is the matter likely the blame of anyone other then those operating the company.

However when Obama trotted it out as an example of his stimulus handiwork,  he got himself associated with the place, for better or worse.

There are certainly some serious irregularities, for how many bankruptcies have the FBI showing up and hauling off records and files?

And the US government backed the loans to the tune of over half a billion USD, and this is in the realm of serious money.

(in reply to samboct)
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RE: Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/9/2011 3:49:21 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		From what I have read it seems both Bush and Obama were behind loans for the company. So to blame either or doesnt make sense. It also seems that much of the loan was used in developing a first class manufacturing plant.

The problem seems to have been to try and push a costly design againts cheaper technology. This wouldnt be the first time an engineering company has gone bankrupt doing that.


I am wondering why those who feel it is wrong for China to subsidise its companies feel it is ok for the US to do the same ( Think cheap wheat and Mexico )

The following is an interesting read.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Everything-to-Know-About-Solyndra-Obama--the-Chinese-128895103.html



< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 9/9/2011 3:50:10 AM >

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RE: Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/9/2011 5:55:11 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		PS53

Or Airbus? Look, the difference between Chinese subsidies and US/European subsidies is that the Chinese subsidies are intended to steal technology. By basically giving away land, tax breaks, and subsidizing construction costs, China invites Western companies to manufacture there. Once they learn the process, then indigenous competition wipes out the Western company which often gets tied up in Chinese red tape. China doesn't respect patents- which means that they're stealing intellectual property.

Governments have often been a first customer for new markets- aviation is a wonderful example, but the impact of mail contracts also showed up in shipping and rail. I don't have a problem with this, but then I'm not a rabid ideologue.

In terms of Solyndra- I think we agree. The technology was pushed too fast and the product that they came up with wasn't economical. If you looked at the tubes they were putting in a module, well, each tube had 165 different cells in it. This is a wiring nightmare- when you contrast it with silicon cells which are now in sq. meters. But rather than try and compete with the Chinese in silicon (which unfortunately now makes sense) if the US is going to compete in solar, we better figure out how to make thin film work- and fast.

Cheers,

Sam

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/9/2011 10:00:23 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Sam, it seems the difference between Solyndras product and the Chinese units on sale is that the Chinese one is more basic and therefore cheaper.

Most governments are pushing green technology before it is tried and tested. It is the same in the UK with wind farms, the intial cost and problems get overlooked due to the carbon credit schemes.

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 9/9/2011 10:01:08 AM >

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RE: Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/9/2011 10:01:50 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Another American manufacturer done in by cheap Chinese Imports.


built using stolen IP and buffered by currency manipulation.

Dammit, there we go agreeing again.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/9/2011 11:02:13 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Hi PS53

I think are always problems when technology is rolled out on a large scale, especially when it's done expeditiously. The technology behind the modern wind turbine though, was developed by NASA and NREL back in the 70s and had a certain maturity by the 80s. I think some of the problems we're seeing now have to do with siting, i.e. in marine environments, icing, etc, and the owners refusal to do maintenance- thinking that composites just don't need any.

In terms of the solar market, I found this article to make interesting reading (reposted from the job, jobs, jobs thread..)

http://www.electroiq.com/articles/pvw/2011/09/solar-and-the-law-of-unintended-consequences.html?cmpid=EnlEIQDailySeptember92011


Sam

< Message edited by samboct -- 9/9/2011 11:03:18 AM >

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RE: Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/9/2011 4:58:58 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Sam, thanks for the link.

The US has a lower take up of the demand for solar panels than the EU. The demand for PV supplies in the EU is 80% of the worlds total, where in the US and Canada it is only 9%. This may well be down to the fact that US users do not own any excess supply, where in the EU and elsewhere they do. Much of the drive for demand in the EU has been down to feed in tariffs with any unused power sold back to the electrical supply companies.

Surely there will come a point when the industrial market is saturated with equipment that should last a lifetime, with little incentive for updating the system. Could it be that the trouble US companies are having is due to growing at too quick a rate and over assuming the numbers of new home grown consumers ?

Just a note about Airbus, Boeing had an unfair advantage in tax subsidies, Airbus had the advantage of part government loans, since repaid in full. Seems to me both companies had some sort of government help.

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RE: Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/9/2011 7:06:44 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

. This may well be down to the fact that US users do not own any excess supply,


Huh?

_____________________________

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to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/10/2011 12:23:34 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

. This may well be down to the fact that US users do not own any excess supply,


Huh?



Its simple enough. Anyone using pv in the UK can sell an excess power to the utility companies. In the US any ecess power is owned by the utility companies and not the owner of the solar panels.

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RE: Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/10/2011 2:21:51 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Since when ?

Last I heard yes they would buy it, but unfortunately of course not for the same rate they charge for it. Also, the system needed to sell power back is not cheap, at least for an individual household.

But really I had not heard that they simply don't buy it at all. That's what I mean by since when.

T^T

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RE: Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/10/2011 5:28:17 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		term, i came across an article the other day when reading up on PV systems. I cant seem to find it. It may have been an outdated article or I may have misread it.

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RE: Solyndra Bites the Big One - 9/10/2011 5:39:14 PM   
DeviantlyD


Posts: 4375
Joined: 5/26/2007
From: Hawai`i
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

built using stolen IP and buffered by currency manipulation.



Do you have a link ?



Are you kidding? An actual bona fide reference? Don't hold your breath. ;)

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