RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (Full Version)

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ClassIsInSession -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 9:49:20 PM)

Hmmm, it's funny, because a lot of people say the play book hasn't changed for the Republicans, but Ron Paul is a Republican and he has been against the wars since the beginning, wants to shut down the bases outside the U.S. around the globe, audit the Federal Reserve and ultimately abolish it because of the huge sums of money passed out to foreign banks, corporations and the like....none of this sounds like what you're accusing the Republicans of with a broad brush.

As to Perry, and most of the other candidates, I would agree, but a party is full of people with differing ideas.

Obama very readily signed the second Bail Out...which gave trillions to the wealthy, but no one seems to ever bring that up.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 9:51:10 PM)

FR:

Ok, the speech was pretty well delivered, I'll give him that.  Most of his speeches simple bore me to frigging tears.

He did "dumb it down" and use less obfuscating words than normal as well.

However, it was an election speech more than anything.

It was full of gotchas:

1.  "It will all be paid for" ... sure ... by making the Super Committee come up with even more cuts than the already politically impossible goal that they had.

But, well, ya see ... then it will be Congress's fault that nothing got funded ... and that means those damn TEA partiers, doncha know ...

He plans on running against Congress during the election.  This sets it up, and will give him political cover to do so.

2.  A lot of his "jobs that we have to create NOW" won't happen now, next month, or even next year.  All those construction jobs?  It will be winter - at least - before they would get funded, and contracts let ... so, best case, next summer.

That's ok.  He doesn't intend that Congress ever fund them anyway.  He's running against Congress, remember?

3. He's "reviewing" Federal Regulations.  That's great.  His admin has added billions in costs to the economy every month with new regulations.  The employment for the regulatory agencies in DC are one of the bright spots in the economy.

In other words, he mentioned, but it is doubtful that he will actually do anything other than possible reduce the rate of growth of such regulations.  And it is the continuing uncertainty about changes in government regulation that puts a damper on small business growth.

4.  He is going to travel all across the country to lobby for his "jobs program".  Here, let me translate that for ya ... He now has an "issue" that will allow him to charge almost all of his election campaign activities to the government, rather than his campaign.  And it will last just as long as he wants it to last, and he's pretty sure it's going to last until campaign season, because he knows that it's highly unlikely to get passed soon, or at all.

Free government campaign funding!  And he doesn't even have to officially "take" funding!  Damn smart political move.

5.  "Pass this bill NOW!" ... well, shoot .... if you had a frigging bill to even vote on ....

More political theater for the masses, and a talking point for his campaign ... "I told those darn Congress Critters back in September that it needed to be passed immediately!  And look what happened!"

6.  Lot's of talk about getting all those union jobs back .. teachers, construction workers.  Oh, yeah ... small business ... we'll do something for them ....

Few of even those union jobs will be generated anytime soon.  See my comments above about "construction jobs".  School teachers?  I guess they are just going to give that money to the States, since the States or local governments pay most all of those salaries.

How much you want to bet that the blue states get the majority share of that?  How much of that billions will end up with the hiring of new teachers?  Hell, most all school budgets are already set, and the teachers hired ... so it will likely be no earlier than next fall before we see any real hires.

7.  He talked about Buffet not paying enough taxes (and other code words for "the rich"), but didn't give any indication of what he was going to do ...  sound bite city.

Hell, those are just off the top of my head.

I hope I'm wrong.  I hope the bill (if and when it final arrives) makes some damn sense, and isn't just another boondoggle for his supporters, and a political hot potato for his opponents.

But ... it's not looking good so far.

Firm





Aylee -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 9:51:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

We do not know what will be in it and we do not know how much it will cost. Parts of it are being left up to a committee that he has no control or vote over.



Oh for Christ sake.

Do you ever bother to read the posts on the threads you post on?

Let me help you out, courtesy of Fargle:


http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/09/08/fact-sheet-american-jobs-act



quote:

5. Fully Paid for as Part of the President’s Long-Term Deficit Reduction Plan.To ensure that the American Jobs Act is fully paid for, the President will call on the Joint Committee to come up with additional deficit reduction necessary to pay for the Act and still meet its deficit target. The President will, in the coming days, release a detailed plan that will show how we can do that while achieving the additional deficit reduction necessary to meet the President’s broader goal of stabilizing our debt as a share of the economy.


Fully paid for. . . in the future. . . maybe.





TheHeretic -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 9:51:42 PM)

Not dating, RML.  Relationship.  The part where you comfortably share your space and your life with another person, every day. 

It's too easy to pick up a girlfriend between the airport and the hotel in Vegas, especially if you book ahead.  I think you should post pics of her, here and now, and we'll compare when the time comes. [:)]




rulemylife -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 10:02:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

It also pissed me off that he refused to address the economic affects of the wars. It is like they aren't even happening.


He has already announced plans for pulling us out of both.

But you want to blame Obama for the effects, and yes it is effects not affects, for the wars Bush involved us in.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 10:04:55 PM)

Next summer is far too optimistic to start public works projects of this magnitude. It will be more like years.

I disagree that it is simply free campaigning that is causing him to travel promoting this program. It is part of his job to communicate with Americans, he should get out and talk to people.




rulemylife -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 10:07:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Not dating, RML.  Relationship.  The part where you comfortably share your space and your life with another person, every day. 

It's too easy to pick up a girlfriend between the airport and the hotel in Vegas, especially if you book ahead.  I think you should post pics of her, here and now, and we'll compare when the time comes. [:)]


Well gee Richie, here I thought that dating someone was sharing your life with them every day.

I never knew that was not a relationship.

But you keep teaching me new things every day.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 10:09:20 PM)

Gee, sorry I misused a word. No one on these forums ever does that.
I am not blaming Obama, I am aware of who got us into the wars.
It is dishonest to not acknowledge how the wars have affected the economy. We lost, that seems obvious. Why wait to get out? Even if we had or have some grand purpose, we can't afford to fund them anymore.
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

It also pissed me off that he refused to address the economic affects of the wars. It is like they aren't even happening.


He has already announced plans for pulling us out of both.

But you want to blame Obama for the effects, and yes it is effects not affects, for the wars Bush involved us in.





ClassIsInSession -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 10:12:18 PM)

Plans? How many years has he been in office and he campaigned on a promise to get us out?

I'd be the first to agree that Bush and Cheney led us into what are really "illegal" wars, and I didn't think we should have gone in the first place, particularly to Iraq, but come on.

If you want to pull the troops out, you pack your bags, and send the troops home. It didn't take us long to get over there...




FirmhandKY -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 10:15:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I disagree that it is simply free campaigning that is causing him to travel promoting this program. It is part of his job to communicate with Americans, he should get out and talk to people.

Sweet,

You are correct.  And he's not the first President to fudge the line,

But damn ... this set-up is sweet ... and masterfully done, too.

Firm




rulemylife -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 10:20:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

We do not know what will be in it and we do not know how much it will cost. Parts of it are being left up to a committee that he has no control or vote over.



Oh for Christ sake.

Do you ever bother to read the posts on the threads you post on?

Let me help you out, courtesy of Fargle:


http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/09/08/fact-sheet-american-jobs-act



quote:

5. Fully Paid for as Part of the President’s Long-Term Deficit Reduction Plan.To ensure that the American Jobs Act is fully paid for, the President will call on the Joint Committee to come up with additional deficit reduction necessary to pay for the Act and still meet its deficit target. The President will, in the coming days, release a detailed plan that will show how we can do that while achieving the additional deficit reduction necessary to meet the President’s broader goal of stabilizing our debt as a share of the economy.


Fully paid for. . . in the future. . . maybe.




You know, it's really hilarious to hear conservatives still bitch and moan when the President is doing exactly what they asked for.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 10:24:17 PM)

Politically, I thought it was a great speech, and he is such a great politician. He has finally figured out what other dems can't seem to do - frame the issues in a way that is favorable to them. Repubs are good at it, dems have a habit of letting the other side frame the issues and having to play catch up.
I also think he showed his tenacity. Bringing up tax hikes for the rich, after conceding this issue so thoroughly during the budget debate really surprised me. He doesn't give up, and on this issue, he is right. The tax system is fucked up. The image of Buffet and his secretary's respective tax rates was compelling. That's an example of framing the issues in a way that favors him.




rulemylife -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 10:28:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Gee, sorry I misused a word. No one on these forums ever does that.
I am not blaming Obama, I am aware of who got us into the wars.
It is dishonest to not acknowledge how the wars have affected the economy. We lost, that seems obvious. Why wait to get out? Even if we had or have some grand purpose, we can't afford to fund them anymore.



Yet I don't remember your complaints on here when Bush was starting those wars.

But now it is Obama's problem to get us out of the messes the neo-cons involved us in?

It's not that simple anymore.




ClassIsInSession -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 10:32:44 PM)

Why is it not so simple? You could pull out of Iraq, because we accomplished the mission there, to topple Saddam Hussein. You can pull out of Afghanistan, because mission accomplished, we've rid the world of Osama and we've done a great job of disrupting Al Qaida.

So, you pack up the trucks, HumV's, guns, missiles, copters, etc. And you put the troops on planes and fly them home.

It would stop about 1 billion a day in cash bleeding.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 10:38:14 PM)

Well, that could be because I joined this May. But screw you, I attended peace marches in Portland when both those wars were started. Don't presume to know what I said about bush, because I said plenty. And actually it is perfectly simple. We lost. We don't even seem to have an articulated purpose any more. Even if we did, it is a pipe dream now, because we are out of money. Why wait until we fail, like the soviet union did?
And why would the president, in a do or die economic speech, not even acknowledge the issue? Isn't it up to him to explain why we are still there?
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
.



Yet I don't remember your complaints on here when Bush was starting those wars.

But now it is Obama's problem to get us out of the messes the neo-cons involved us in?

It's not that simple anymore.





ClassIsInSession -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 10:41:48 PM)

I'll tell you why, because we are run by socialists in 2 branches of our government right now.....hmmm, Soviet Union/socialist?





Aylee -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 10:44:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
You know, it's really hilarious to hear conservatives still bitch and moan when the President is doing exactly what they asked for.



I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a statement.


I must have missed the part where he said he was doing away with the bunny inspectors. Just one of the many things that I have 'asked for.'




TreasureKY -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 10:47:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

You can now end your speculation. Here's the details.

Read away, bitches!

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/09/08/fact-sheet-american-jobs-act


Lovely, adult language there, fargle.  No wonder people here are so anxious to try and engage with you.  [8|]

So... here's a portion of the outline from the White House.  I've interspersed the bullet points with my take and questions.  If I don't mention a particular part of the "plan", it's because I lack sufficient information right now, have no serious problem with it at the moment, or Firm has already mentioned it.

quote:

  • Cutting the payroll tax in half for 98 percent of businesses: The President’s plan will cut in half the taxes paid by businesses on their first $5 million in payroll, targeting the benefit to the 98 percent of firms that have payroll below this threshold.

Does anyone here know what "payroll taxes" are for businesses?   They are, in a nutshell:
  • Social Security taxes (6.2% up to the annual maximum)
  • Medicare taxes (1.45% of wages)
  • Federal unemployment taxes (FUTA - 6.0% on the first $7,000 in wages)
  • State unemployment taxes (SUTA)
Employers do not pay any kind of "income tax" on the money paid to employees.  On the contrary, wages and benefits paid to employees are deductions on the employer's own taxes.

Employees' Pay - You can generally deduct the pay you give your employees for the services they perform for your business.


So... halving Social Security, Medicare and FUTA.  Let's take an example and see how much we're talking about.

Under Obama's plan, Acme Plumbing hires Joe Schmoe as a full-time plumber for $14.50 an hour.  For every two-week pay period, Acme pays the following Federal payroll taxes for Joe:

Social Security - $35.96
Medicare - $8.41
FUTA - 34.80 (but only for the first six paychecks that Joe earns)

Now... depending upon the State that Acme operates in, they have SUTA to pay, as well.  But I'm dubious about Obama being able to unilaterally make States halve their required payments, too.

So... the incentive for Acme to hire more plumbers is that for every $1239.17 they spend ($1160 in base pay, $79.17 in "payroll taxes"), they save $79.17. 

Wow... that's really helpful to a small business.

But wait, there's more in the details...

quote:

Cutting the Payroll Tax Cut in Half for the First $5 Million in Wages:  This provision would cut the payroll tax in half to 3.1% for employers on the first $5 million in wages, providing broad tax relief to all businesses but targeting it to the 98 percent of firms with wages below this level.


They identify the tax being cut to 3.1%... so it's only the Social Security tax that will be cut.  That changes the equation in my above incentives example to for every $1282.38 they spend ($1160 in base pay, $35.96 SS, $16.85 Medicare, & $69.60 FUTA), they save a whopping $35.96.

Wow... that's even better. I'm sure there's loads of small businesses out there who've been holding off their hiring because of that $36.  [&:]

But there's more!

quote:

  • A complete payroll tax holiday for added workers or increased wages: The President’s plan will completely eliminate payroll taxes for firms that increase their payroll by adding new workers or increasing the wages of their current worker (the benefit is capped at the first $50 million in payroll increases).

Hmmm... the devil is in the details.

quote:

Temporarily Eliminating Employer Payroll Taxes on Wages for New Workers or Raises for Existing Workers:The President is proposing a full holiday on the 6.2% payroll tax firms pay for any growth in their payroll up to $50 million above the prior year, whether driven by new hires, increased wages or both. This is the kind of job creation measure that CBO has called the most effective of all tax cuts in supporting employment.


So... they won't have to pay any Social Security.  Temporarily, that is.

I'm not so sure how well that's going to work out for the Social Security Fund, in the long run.  I wonder if Obama has been talking to Perry on the sly...

quote:

  • Extending 100% expensing into 2012: This continues an effective incentive for new investment.

Sounds great to the masses, but it all depends on the business' accounting method. 

Excerpts from IRS Publication 538:
Most individuals and many small businesses use the cash method of accounting.

Under the cash method, generally, you deduct expenses in the tax year in which you actually pay them.

The following entities cannot use the cash method, including any combination of methods that includes the cash method. (See Special rules for farming businesses, later.)
  • A corporation (other than an S corporation) with average annual gross receipts exceeding $5 million. See Gross receipts test, below.
  • A partnership with a corporation (other than an S corporation) as a partner, and with the partnership having average annual gross receipts exceeding $5 million. See Gross receipts test, below.
  • A tax shelter.
So who really benefits most from this?

quote:

  • Expanding access to high-speed wireless as part of a plan for freeing up the nation’s spectrum.

This one is funny to me.  You have to understand that increasing high-speed wireless access actually uses more spectrum, though. 
quote:

To ensure that the American Jobs Act is fully paid for, the President will call on the Joint Committee to come up with additional deficit reduction necessary to pay for the Act and still meet its deficit target. The President will, in the coming days, release a detailed plan that will show how we can do that while achieving the additional deficit reduction necessary to meet the President’s broader goal of stabilizing our debt as a share of the economy.
So... responsibility for figuring out how to pay for this gets laid on others, but he'll chip in some ideas when he gets around to it.  [&:]



Edited to adjust formatting.




TreasureKY -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 11:11:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

... The tax system is fucked up. The image of Buffet and his secretary's respective tax rates was compelling. That's an example of framing the issues in a way that favors him.


I don't disagree with the tax system being a huge problem.  And yes, it isn't right that Buffet's rates are lower than his secretary's.  But evoking Buffet as a poster boy for the rich wanting to pay more is ridiculous considering his own company's tax problems.

quote:

We file income tax returns in the U.S. federal jurisdiction and in state, local and foreign jurisdictions. We are under examination by the taxing authorities in many of these jurisdictions. With few exceptions, we have settled tax return liabilities with U.S. federal, state, local and foreign tax authorities for years before 2002. We anticipate that we will resolve all adjustments proposed by the U.S. Internal Revenue Service (“IRS”) for the 2002 through 2004 tax years at the IRS Appeals Division within the next 12 months. The IRS has completed its examination of our consolidated U.S. federal income tax returns for the 2005 and 2006 tax years and the proposed adjustments are currently being reviewed by the IRS Appeals Division process. The IRS is currently auditing our consolidated U.S. federal income tax returns for the 2007 through 2009 tax years. It is reasonably possible that certain of our income tax examinations will be settled within the next twelve months.


Berkshire Hathaway Inc. 2010 Annual Report (quote from page 56)




MrRodgers -> RE: Opinions on President Obama's Jobs Speech... (9/8/2011 11:30:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

Rob Social Security which has been heading for the rocks to pump the economy?

He won't be around when they have to either pay the money back or short sheet the retirees, assuming this scheme is actually even functional.

He has a few other tricks tossed in, but that and a couple of tax cuts and some "make work" on the education system and the infrastructure and some screwing around with unemployment insurance is about the most of it.

But it woudl be nice to see the actual bill, and not just hear what Obama hopes will be in it, because by the time it clears the US Congress and heads for his desk, it certainly won't resemble anything he said tonight.

Yes, the real problem is that congress been robbing SS for oh say...28 years. It is full of that capitalist nirvana...debt paper. I wonder...just who who is going to pay that back ? How can I speculate on SS debt ? (estimated $2-3 trillion and counting)

We get govt. to sell SS debt derivatives, yea...that's the ticket. Got to be a profit center there somewhere...the American way.




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