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Vanilla people and FemDom - 9/9/2011 8:36:38 PM   
hangemhigh1953


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Recently I've started to realize that in vanilla portrayals/perceptions of BDSM, it's almost exclusively FemDom. I mean, just the other day my brother for some reason was talking about sexual perversions and made it obvious that he had never heard of or even considered the existence of maledom BDSM.

Why do you think that is? Is it a well-intentioned feminist thing of always making women appear powerful, or does the media just like to show women dressed in tight latex and leather to boost ratings?

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RE: Vanilla people and FemDom - 9/9/2011 9:12:58 PM   
EmilyRocks


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Oh come on. Men buy porn. in the past it was made exclusively for men, so the "traditional" image of BDSM is of the leather-clad Domina with huge tits and a crop because that is the sort of BDSM porn men bought.
Male Dom porn was pretty much covered by the "vanilla" porn of Playboy, with its blatant objectification of women. As well, mainstream media often portrayed perfectly vanilla appearing men dominating women in countless ways, because it was a male dominated society. Look at the women portrayed on the noses of WWII bombers, dominatrix types and scantily clad fucktoys. FemDoms and femsubs.
Male domination was pretty mainstream, that's why there is a whole 50s household subgroup.

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RE: Vanilla people and FemDom - 9/9/2011 9:37:43 PM   
NocturnalStalker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hangemhigh1953

Recently I've started to realize that in vanilla portrayals/perceptions of BDSM, it's almost exclusively FemDom. I mean, just the other day my brother for some reason was talking about sexual perversions and made it obvious that he had never heard of or even considered the existence of maledom BDSM.

Why do you think that is? Is it a well-intentioned feminist thing of always making women appear powerful, or does the media just like to show women dressed in tight latex and leather to boost ratings?


I'm not thinking it is feminist propaganda as it is just the stereotype.  The vision of a man in scant clothing kneeled like a dog to a busty and impossibly sexy dominatrix clad in leather and brandishing a whip with handcuffs hanging off her belt is just an image that is what an average person would think when they hear of BDSM.

What effects would this image have, if I was to guess?  You could make a female supremacy case or you could see it as a deviance itself that a "woman is the one in control."  I would guess that the thought of a female being the one that is the supreme overseer in a relationship is something that was looked at as alien back in the day.  Maybe it is a coy jab to males and implying that sex controls both our heads. 

Just my intepretations.


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RE: Vanilla people and FemDom - 9/9/2011 9:59:22 PM   
M4S73R


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It makes it more taboo imo. Dating back to the beginning times. Most classic literature the male is dominate. ESPECIALLY in religious context. Most religions paint the female of any speices to be inferior. Add that to the brainwashing of children with the use of religion perpetuates this.


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RE: Vanilla people and FemDom - 9/10/2011 12:35:08 AM   
Mr4sg


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I suspect it's more like people not wanting to see that their (parents) marriage is also based upon 1 person making all decisions.

Last few years there has been a strong current of "powerful women" with all sorts of female action heroes, female power figures, etc etc.

Im still searching for who let that cage open.

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RE: Vanilla people and FemDom - 9/10/2011 2:11:01 PM   
DesFIP


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It's also because it's apparent in media representations that a 5'1" woman waying 100 pounds soaking wet can't force a 6' male weighing 200 pounds to do anything. He has to agree to it. Whereas when it's the reverse, duress can be used which could be interpreted as abuse. When there's no possibility of abuse, consent is apparent.

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RE: Vanilla people and FemDom - 9/10/2011 3:33:40 PM   
ProlificNeeds


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It's 'pervy' for a male figure to submit to a female, it's 'classic' when a female meekly submits to her male partner?
Obedient housewives were a staple of common living for a loooong time. There's also a lot more groups out there ready to rag on you if you portray a woman in any sort of abused position or 'degraded' position. Some female groups take the 'female rights' thing a bit too far, and forget we also have the right to be submissive cum-catchers if we want to.

I have to say though it's also true that you 'find what you're looking for'. As a female sub starting off all the media and porn ect that I found was male dominants, I didn't come across much female dominant media until I was more aware of BDSM.

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RE: Vanilla people and FemDom - 9/10/2011 3:42:30 PM   
Hisprettybaby


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I remember when I first heard of kinky stuff - way before I was nervy enough to actually investigate it for real - all I ever heard of was the female Dominant/sub male variety. I think that's why it took me so long to check it out because, back in those days, I wasn't a switch, I was all sub and that didn't feel right to me then.

~Hisprettybaby~

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RE: Vanilla people and FemDom - 9/10/2011 3:48:14 PM   
Awareness


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  Easy answer for that.  Because a heterosexual D/s relationship with a guy taking the lead looks just like a normal non-pc relationship.  One the feminists feel they have to save the chick from, but not one which people perceive as perverse.

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RE: Vanilla people and FemDom - 9/11/2011 10:19:56 AM   
paulmcuk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

It's also because it's apparent in media representations that a 5'1" woman waying 100 pounds soaking wet can't force a 6' male weighing 200 pounds to do anything. He has to agree to it. Whereas when it's the reverse, duress can be used which could be interpreted as abuse. When there's no possibility of abuse, consent is apparent.


Agree with this. In the vanilla world, male doms are likely to be seen as men who like beating up woman while femsubs are victims who were either forced into it or who are sufferening the effects of childhood abuse and don't know any better.

In contrast, male subs are perverts (but not victims) while femdoms are sexy, savvy ladies who make money from men's kinks without having to have sex with them. I add the bit about money since most mainstream references seem to concentrate on the professional side of femdom rather than the lifestyle side.

There's also the simple fact that mainstream media is still largely male-run and men do like a sexy lady in lycra.

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RE: Vanilla people and FemDom - 9/11/2011 10:36:43 AM   
coookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

  Easy answer for that.  Because a heterosexual D/s relationship with a guy taking the lead looks just like a normal non-pc relationship.  One the feminists feel they have to save the chick from, but not one which people perceive as perverse.


I have to agree with this. A chick in latex holding a crop over a man on all fours is kinky to mainstream society. A woman on all fours with bruises on her backside is abused. The meek do as she is told girl is too close to reality (or at least a not so distant past reality) so the only viable option for mainstream society is to go with the odd kinky folks

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RE: Vanilla people and FemDom - 9/12/2011 6:44:30 AM   
xssve


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All pretty good reasoning (including the visual interest of women in Black Latex - Emma Peel anybody?), imagery is symbolic, and maledom is symbolic of paternalism, femdom symbolic of maternalism - you'd have to examine the demographics of each shows particular audience, but there remains a few binary complexities in mens symbolic relationships with their mothers - they are women, dominant women for the most part, and we are supposed to be attracted to women, but not to our mothers, which makes it all a bit complicated.

Women don't seem to suffer from quite the same symbolic conundrum, and it is a symbolic one, very similar to the gay debate, and similarly, it's more intense for men: "momma's boy" is distinctly pejorative, "Daddy's girl" is more along the lines of good natured ribbing at worst, i.e., a woman in a subordinate role is non-threatening, and reifies masculinity, whereas a woman in a dominant role, threatens to turn the man back into a child, and "real" men in general tend to be uncomfortable surrounded by anything but reflections of their own masculinity.

All the same there is a fascination for the Domina - perhaps because she is overtly sexual, it distances her somewhat from the mother image, closer to it's opposite, the Femme Fatale, a more mysterious symbol, who promises to fulfill your deepest sexual needs at the price of your soul.

But, it's nothing new, there is no shortage of examples of this character in history and mythology from Lilith to Morgan LeFey and in some sense she represents the power of woman, social and seductive, rather than good, clean, physical violence, she represents the complexities of the subconscious itself, and she was never more popular than during the 50's, the ostensible peak of paternalistic dominance as a cultural value - the underlying fear that accompanies that is women as vapid, smiling automatons, Stepford wives, symbolic of sterility - masculinity, ultimately, has to strive against something, and the match between man against woman has always really been between brawn and brains.

The current cultural narrative will not allow for submissive women, as some have noted, it's a problem in literature, revenge fantasies are acceptable, i.e., the girl who escapes from her captors (Natascha Kampusch has her own website and fan club), the Avenger symbol, but the titillating details are left tot he imagination, and it is something she is assumed to have endured, not enjoyed.

And not to call Natascha a liar, clearly, shouldn't happen to anybody, and that these things happen to women is nothing to make light of - the point is that these sort of negative associations are currently the only acceptable form of depicting female submission, thus they tend to recur in fiction as well, including movies and television.

Probably just has to do with the direction the pendulum is currently swinging, it's assumed that mens egos can sustain a challenge, could probably use it in fact, while women's collective ego is still too fragile (though it doesn't seem to caused much of a strain in underground pop culture, who seem to have embraced both dominance and submission in the feminine with equal fervor) social equality between the genders is after all, still a relatively new phenomena, and as they say in the ad biz, "yeah, but will it sell in Peoria"?

Any sort of sexual desire in women at all is still pretty much an issue wrought with some fairly intense anxiety in many circles, and the symbolism here is, as I grazed on, complex.

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RE: Vanilla people and FemDom - 9/12/2011 6:48:54 AM   
Endivius


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The answer is obvious. I cannot belive you haven't figured this out yet.

Xena: Warrior Princess.

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Basically if you can't inspire someone to trust you deeply, you aren't going to be able to buy that or a reasonable facsimile thereof. -DesFIP

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RE: Vanilla people and FemDom - 9/12/2011 7:16:15 AM   
xssve


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There were plenty of example s of feminine submission, right up until the Eighties, when women entered the workforce en masse, and some of the most realistic ones were made in the Eighties - Jade, Diabolique (both with Chazz Palmintari), a few others I can't recall immediately (there was one with that other Italian chick, who played a cop into rough sex, and Rose McGowan had a good run playing various femme fatale types) with but since then most female characters have been desexualized - The Devil Wears Prada is an exemplar: it features both dominant and submissive female roles, but carefully stripped of all sexual innuendo.



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RE: Vanilla people and FemDom - 9/12/2011 7:44:11 AM   
xssve


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I was thinking Buffy the vampire slayer was the turning point, the asexual sex object, but I think it actually might have been Looking for Mr. Goodbar, a classic moral fable, where Diane Keaton bites off more than she can chew, and it caused quite a stir at the time, even made it to the cover or Time magazine as I recall, and I think it marked the beginning of the whole trend of the portrayal of men as barely suppressed violent sexual predator, although that is and remains a stable but relatively small proportion of males.

Similarly, the borderline personality depicted in Fatal Attraction caused nearly an equal sensation, while depicting a very real, but statistically marginal personality type.

Primacy effect takes over, and people see predatory males and psychotic females everywhere - and this is the area we play in, fraught with serpents and pits of boiling lava - the fact that you're just as likely probably more likely, to run into these pathological types at your local church than at any BDSM club notwithstanding.

< Message edited by xssve -- 9/12/2011 8:05:07 AM >

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