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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 7:56:16 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RakeAndCo

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

I can't support Democracy in the Middle East when it tends to lead to Muslim Theocracy


It would appear that you do not support democracy at all.
One either supports democracy or they do not.
Democracy is a mob-rule. Support for democracy is a support for mob-rule. Not a single "civilized" country that exist is a democracy, at most they are different forms of republics with the constitution attempting to guarantee the rights of those that are not in the majority.

The post popular position in the middle east is that gays need to be cured by extermination and women must be locked up regardless of their opinion on the topic. But let me guess, since the majority likes it, we, as the civilized people, should allow them to do so.



Just because you and rush think democracy is mob rule does not make it so. You are not allowed to make up definitions for words and then use your definition to define a discussion.

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 8:05:51 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


The article cited in the OP mentioned that many of the SAMS are very new, modern, technologically superior Russian SAMS






That is not true.
This is the only statement from your op which references your point

HRW estimates there are 20,000 surface-to-air missiles in Libya, and many of those are now missing. Some are recent Russian-made SAMs, capable of shooting down aircraft flying as high as 11,000 feet.

Your op cite says some not many are of recent design. Perhaps you might avail yourself of an adult remedial reading course.
11,000 feet is not very high up. Single engine private aircraft fly that high.

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 8:20:40 AM   
FirstQuaker


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Status: offline 		What is relevant, is that there is an open market for all these toys right now in Africa.

For example the British are instructing the local villages around their airports on what the various antiaircraft rocketry looks like in hopes any brought into the area might be spotted before they are used -


quote:


Residents have spoken of their shock after being told that their villages have been identified as potential “high-risk launch sites” for extremists wanting to fire rockets at planes taking off and landing at Heathrow.

Officers from the Metropolitan Police’s specialist aviation security team have been touring village halls with a surface-to-air rocket launcher and video footage of a missile hitting a plane in Iraq. Similar briefings have been held near other airports around the country.

Police have invested tens of thousands of pounds in software to identify potential missile launch sites in recent years and have shown residents maps with red and orange dots pinpointing the most likely location for terrorist attacks.
-
Police brief villagers on how to spot terrorists armed with rocket launchers

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 12:13:13 PM   
Sanity


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A little more from your article:

quote:

In 2003 a major security scare at Heathrow was apparently the result of intelligence that terrorists could be trying to shoot a plane out of the sky. Mr Nicholls added: “To watch this shoulder-launched weapon hit this aeroplane at 8,000ft and take half the wing off it – everybody in that room was stunned.


“They told us, there’s no threat whatsoever, but please be on the lookout. This is an awful lot of work to be putting in if there is no threat.”


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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 12:21:06 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Just because you and rush think democracy is mob rule does not make it so. You are not allowed to make up definitions for words and then use your definition to define a discussion.

Sadly, there's plenty of posters on here who think that way. What do you think all of this "Teh Kenyan iz a Marksist!" bollocks is about?

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 12:23:39 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


A little more from your article:

quote:

In 2003 a major security scare at Heathrow was apparently the result of intelligence that terrorists could be trying to shoot a plane out of the sky. Mr Nicholls added: “To watch this shoulder-launched weapon hit this aeroplane at 8,000ft and take half the wing off it – everybody in that room was stunned.


“They told us, there’s no threat whatsoever, but please be on the lookout. This is an awful lot of work to be putting in if there is no threat.”




According to the cite I posted to disabuse you of your ignorance. About the only plane that a sam 7 could take the wing off of would be a piper or a cesna.

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 12:26:34 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Just because you and rush think democracy is mob rule does not make it so. You are not allowed to make up definitions for words and then use your definition to define a discussion.

Sadly, there's plenty of posters on here who think that way. What do you think all of this "Teh Kenyan iz a Marksist!" bollocks is about?


Of the morons who spout that rubish I have yet to encouter one who has even read marx...well maybe they have read groucho.

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 12:36:57 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		I doubt that they've even read Groucho: they just think that Karl made comedy films with his brothers during the depression...

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 12:49:21 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		SAM 7's are a militarily a danger to helicopters and small planes but not much else. They were used a couple of times in Africa by terrorists against airliners with substancial loss of life.

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 1:01:05 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		That's allright, then: it isn't like anybody's using helicopters or small planes in Libya, after all.

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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 1:23:05 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		I wasn't saying it wouldn't be a problem, moon. I was just debunking the OP a bit.

1. According to the article, there were as many as 20,000 of them in Quadaffi's armory's.

2. Some are missing but the OP trumpets that up to 20,000 strelas are missing. That's a load of crap.

The OP was also talking about shooting down planes at 11,000' which is damn near impossible. Given that they are 40+ year old technology and near useless on the modern battlefield, I wonder what the hell Quadaffi was even bothering to store the damn things for.

The missing mines, including antitank munitions, are what we really need to worry about keeping off the black market. Those can really do a lot of damage in Afghanistan.

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Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 1:54:20 PM   
isoLadyOwner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

I can't support Democracy in the Middle East when it tends to lead to Muslim Theocracy


It would appear that you do not support democracy at all.
One either supports democracy or they do not.


I do not support the USA aggressively imposing Democracy on any society through unprovoked war. The USA is a Republic and not a true Democracy. Getting to decide between the GOP or the DNC is like getting to choose whether to stab a sharpened pencil in my left ear or my right ear.

Large quantities of weapons being introduced into any country then disappearing is generally not a good thing except to those who would like to see indiscriminate death visited upon the citizens of a specific nation.

Someone mentioned that they hoped the SAMs would be launched into Israel from Gaza for example.

Inaccurate missiles are unlikely to protect the residents of Gaza since they are basically inaccurate and apt to slam into an Israeli school or civilian homes which would lead to heavy handed and likely disproportionately aggressive IDF reprisals against the Palestinians.

I've seen footage of Israeli soldiers shooting at Palestinian schoolgirls, it was very sad. Those SAMs, if used in Gaza, would lead to more Palestinian schoolgirls being gunned down by the IDF, more homes razed, more senseless destruction.

Whether SAMs are particularly accurate or not, a Surface to Air Missile that misses its target might eventually land on civilians.

< Message edited by isoLadyOwner -- 9/12/2011 1:58:37 PM >

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 2:14:52 PM   
Sanity


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From the article cited in my OP:

quote:

Some are recent Russian-made SAMs, capable of shooting down aircraft flying as high as 11,000 feet.


And the term "as many as" is an open ended term, used as a qualifier. It doesnt mean "that many" it means thats the potential, even if it is understood that "that potential" may never be realized. 

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 3:04:28 PM   
FirstQuaker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: isoLadyOwner
.

Inaccurate missiles are unlikely to protect the residents of Gaza since they are basically inaccurate and apt to slam into an Israeli school or civilian homes which would lead to heavy handed and likely disproportionately aggressive IDF reprisals against the Palestinians.

I've seen footage of Israeli soldiers shooting at Palestinian schoolgirls, it was very sad. Those SAMs, if used in Gaza, would lead to more Palestinian schoolgirls being gunned down by the IDF, more homes razed, more senseless destruction.

Whether SAMs are particularly accurate or not, a Surface to Air Missile that misses its target might eventually land on civilians.


Not as far fetched as it might sound, while generally anyone who thinks smart weapons are needs to rethink his position, I can tell you this first hand -

Years ago while serving in the military, one of the primitive NATO versions of these heat seeking types of weapons was shot at a drone, during war games. The gremlins riding aboard this rocket decided to ignore the drone which was the target, and instead selected some farmer's truck, which he had left running while inspecting his crops on his lands, many miles off the military base. Fortunately, all that was hurt was the truck, which was pretty well destroyed.

They (heat seeking rockets) might do interesting things if fired at power plants and other heat sources too.

Don't overlook the ability of a terrorist to use any of the missing lots of military munitions for things other then their intended military applications, i.e. firing torpedoes at sewage plants and bridges, mounting landmines on suicide vehicles, shooting radar suppression rockets at cell towers and television stations, dropping mortar bombs from planes or tall buildings, etc.

< Message edited by FirstQuaker -- 9/12/2011 3:08:02 PM >

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 3:40:17 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

I do not support the USA aggressively imposing Democracy on any society through unprovoked war.


If one has a political idiology imposed upon them how is that democracy?
When you have your cronies vote your gang into power under force of ams that is called a puppet state

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 3:59:52 PM   
flcouple2009


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
We can just PRETEND that Obama has no involvement in this.


What about your attempt to PRETEND you weren't screaming that Obama had to move quickly to help these poor freedom fighters before they were all dead.

Or do you still think we just all forgot that?



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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 4:07:17 PM   
Sanity


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You are twisting my words, so fuck off.

Youre never good for an actual discussion, all you can manage is this style of troll baiting, just like so many of the leftists here do.

If and when you ever decide to bubble up from the sewers though, be sure to let us know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
We can just PRETEND that Obama has no involvement in this.


What about your attempt to PRETEND you weren't screaming that Obama had to move quickly to help these poor freedom fighters before they were all dead.

Or do you still think we just all forgot that?




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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 7:14:02 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Sadly, there's plenty of posters on here who think that way. What do you think all of this "(The President of te United States) iz a Marksist!" bollocks is about?



Just out of curiousity then, Moon, how would you characterize my President's little teaching homily about how ATMs destroy jobs? 



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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 7:26:35 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:


You think theres a connection to Obama somehow?

No! Say it aint so...
Say... I have an idea! We can just PRETEND that Obama has no involvement in this.
Kind of like the way so many leftists like to pretend that Social Security is solvent!


They gotta start piss testing you guys... you sure none of your nearby neighbors aren't cooking meth?



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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/12/2011 9:10:15 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

Someone mentioned that they hoped the SAMs would be launched into Israel from Gaza for example.

Inaccurate missiles are unlikely to protect the residents of Gaza since they are basically inaccurate and apt to slam into an Israeli school or civilian homes which would lead to heavy handed and likely disproportionately aggressive IDF reprisals against the Palestinians.

I've seen footage of Israeli soldiers shooting at Palestinian schoolgirls, it was very sad. Those SAMs, if used in Gaza, would lead to more Palestinian schoolgirls being gunned down by the IDF, more homes razed, more senseless destruction.

Whether SAMs are particularly accurate or not, a Surface to Air Missile that misses its target might eventually land on civilians.


You may well have a point about the accuracy of SAMs. I really haven't the foggiest idea about military technology. The civilian casualty figures are enough to convince me how evil it all is.

I didn't express a hope that " the SAMs would be launched into Israel from Gaza". I did suggest the missiles would be far more likely to end up in Gaza than Afghanistan. And I wondered if they would help correct the imbalance between IDF military might and the people of Gaza. Something needs to be done to protect those poor people from the murderous onslaughts of the IDF

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