Double bondage resulting in death (Full Version)

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Mr4sg -> Double bondage resulting in death (9/11/2011 3:34:26 PM)

Bondage gone wrong.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/paola-caputo-dies-in-sex-game-gone-wrong-in-rome/story-fn3dxity-1226134406715

The notion that drugs and alchohol were used kinda sets me off. I don't understand how anyone can think they have full control if they are under the influence. And specially when in charge of the safetey of others ..


My heart goes out to the family of the girl.




M4S73R -> RE: Double bondage resulting in death (9/11/2011 10:57:29 PM)

Thats sad. Bondage and drugs/alchoal dont mix. 



anniezz338 -> RE: Double bondage resulting in death (9/12/2011 6:41:11 AM)

Very tragic. I admittedly do not know much about Shibari but does this type of bondage not allow for someway to get out of the bond in case something happens to Dom/Master? And if so, could these techniques have been used to avoid this disaster?



Mr4sg -> RE: Double bondage resulting in death (9/12/2011 10:06:23 AM)

There are various knots that make the whole construction of the bondage desintegrate with a single yank on the "safety" rope.
For those who don't know how to, there are metal rings and musketon hooks.



BurntKitty -> RE: Double bondage resulting in death (9/12/2011 10:14:16 AM)

That's precisely the reason I don't like the monthly fetish parties here in Fla in some clubs. The alcohol flows freely & inexperienced people find their "liquid courage". I'll stick with my local dungeon where all that's available is water or soft drinks.

My heart goes out to the family of the young woman.



KissMyArse -> RE: Double bondage resulting in death (9/12/2011 7:38:46 PM)

From the article:

quote:

"Practicing this kind of extreme sex, everything has to be controlled, but he knew that completely. We don't understand what happened."

quote:

Investigators have so far established that the three spent the night drinking and using drugs


Calling all rocket surgeons! Hello!



Adorah -> RE: Double bondage resulting in death (10/27/2011 12:22:32 AM)

It said the three spent the night drinking etc, but he had the werewithal to bring a knife for cutting the ropes and a cell phone. I don't think he was 'bombed' - he just didn't count on one of them fainting and dropping.
He did save one life.. not that that's any consolation to the poor girls mother.



Termyn8or -> RE: Double bondage resulting in death (10/27/2011 1:02:17 AM)

FR

The fact is that some people like bondage with a buzz. I am one of them.

If I die I will be dead and not care, so you shouldn't care. The dead are dead. They took the risk and lost, while millions took the risk and won. Kinda the opposite of Vegas.

In light of it is - just be aware that you can die, other than that no action needs to be taken. You decide to take risks, take them.

T^T



Hisprettybaby -> RE: Double bondage resulting in death (10/27/2011 3:08:00 PM)

I really feel bad for the dead girl's family.



HisPet21 -> RE: Double bondage resulting in death (10/28/2011 9:19:00 PM)

Don't drink and tie people up. Bondage 101.



njlauren -> RE: Double bondage resulting in death (11/5/2011 9:50:40 AM)

I have to say from what I read, the guy in question might have been an expert with marlinspike (i.e knots and ropes), but as a BD/SM dominant he left a lot to be desired IMO, for the following reasons:

-He may have thought to have a knife to cut the ropes but that doesn't prove he was in any kind of shape to take control. Why? Even pretty innocuous play can lead to problems/issues, a sub can have a seizure, faint, or otherwise become unresponsive. One of the biggest responsibilities of a domme/top is not relying on safewords and such, but being able to assess the state of the person they are playing with. If he had been drinking or doing drugs, his response time and perception would be altered (after all, we drink or do drugs to alter consciousness and such, no?). I also am speaking as a sub/bottom who has played without safewords in pretty high level play, subs going into subspace, especially a novice, may not be able to feel something is wrong and it is on the domme/top to be conscious of the minute signals something is going wrong. To give you an idea I was once in a pretty intense bondage getup and was hooded, and the person who was domming me saw signs something was wrong in the way I was reacting,and stopped it and they were right, I was starting to go to a bad place, it was a claustrophobic reaction I had never had before.



-It sounds like one of the people (the other girl) was unknown to both of them. While it could be her fainting was a freak thing and even if they had known her it wouldn't have helped, if playing with someone you don't know (if my impression is right), it is foolish to both be buzzed yourself as a domme, and also playing with someone who you don't know the signals and signs of problems with, who is buzzed themselves,you don't know what will happen.

Before someone accuses me of being some sort of puritan or whatever, I am not, I don't have problems with people who want to drink or do drugs, whatever floats your boat, but when it comes to scene play I have enough experience to also know the risks, and at the very least someone who is in control needs to be fully cogniscent and aware, especially if the subs/bottoms are in some sort of altered state/drugs/alchohol. For me personally drugs and alcohol would ruin what I seek when serving/bottoming, but for subs who find it adds to their scene, then the person in control has to be extra aware and in total control of their senses, something drinking or drugs don't allow (I am not talking a glass of wine here or 1 drink, I am talking when buzzed or drunk).

It isn't a murder, it is an accidental death, but he still could be charged with manslaughter or depraved indifference if the authorities feel somehow he showed deprave indifference or otherwise could have prevented the death but didn't do so. Specifically, if he wasn't sober, if at the time of the incident he was legally impaired, he could be charged as someone drunk who gets into an accident and kills someone could be held liable.



MasterCord -> RE: Double bondage resulting in death (11/5/2011 10:20:36 AM)

So he is an engineer.....

It's so sad for the families involved...to lose a loved one and then have the "why" of it plastered all over the newspapers/internet.

One of the most important things you have to do in any bondage you create, is to FULLY understand before completing it, ALL of the things that can go wrong.....all of the "what-ifs". Failure mode analysis.

Speculative:

If he had done that (..takes all of a minute to do ...) he'd have seen that that if the other woman lost balance, fell over, fainted or otherwise put excessive strain on the woman she was bound to, there could have been a serious problem. When you find something like that, you either redo the ties to eliminate it, or you make sure there is some sort of "in a few seconds" quick-release ability. He apparently did neither, relying instead on being able to cut a rope with strain on it?


Gist of media-reported:

I do note however, that Mr. Mule (....seems a perfect name...) did make sure to tell the authorities that it was all consensual and was an "accident". The "expert" didn't plan the whole thing very well, but he had his plea all ready to go. She's dead, but it's not MY fault...

Knee-jerk reaction:

It was no accident...it was a crime and should be treated as such. With the education he had to be in such a profession, there is no excuse for what happened....he should have known better. He put people at risk to get his jollies. No different than getting in a car and driving drunk then killing someone. If the drinking or drug use alleged contributed....so much more horrible the crime.

Somewhat expert opinion, accuracy unknown:

A local trooper tells me he'd get murder 2 or manslaughter in MA, depending on how well he knew/understood the risks of what he was doing. Murder 1 if he set it up to look like an accident but planned it to kill the woman involved for some reason. Because he was an "expert", they would look very hard into the relationship to see if he used the "accident" to end her life.


Something good to really learn about:

I don't know if bondage itself is illegal in here MA but S&M play seems to be illegal here. He tells me you cannot consent to be beaten in MA.


Sad for everyone involved....

MC



xssve -> RE: Double bondage resulting in death (11/19/2011 12:18:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adorah

It said the three spent the night drinking etc, but he had the werewithal to bring a knife for cutting the ropes and a cell phone. I don't think he was 'bombed' - he just didn't count on one of them fainting and dropping.
He did save one life.. not that that's any consolation to the poor girls mother.

How long does it take to tell when somebody is smothering?

Shibari and breathplay are two very different things, the latter is exceedingly dangerous, not only can you smother, but your heart can stop, even if you can still breathe.

http://www.jaywiseman.com/SEX_BDSM_Breath_Closing_Argument.php



SexyThoughts -> RE: Double bondage resulting in death (11/20/2011 2:41:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
The fact is that some people like bondage with a buzz. I am one of them. If I die I will be dead and not care, so you shouldn't care. The dead are dead. They took the risk and lost, while millions took the risk and won. Kinda the opposite of Vegas. In light of it is - just be aware that you can die, other than that no action needs to be taken. You decide to take risks, take them.


Dead's only complicated for the survivors.

But injuries tends towards the logarithmic. So society gets more little injuries than big injuries, more big injuries than fatalities.

Snap a rope, slip a knot, lose a ceiling hook and odds are, you'll be getting injured than killed.

Rope burn, bruising and scratches are funny. But between the funny and fatal, is another class of injuries.

What's your policy on low blood oxygen causing permanent brain damage? Crimped arteries causing a stroke? Damaged nerves for life?

And if your rigger lacks the shit-togetherness to prevent a fuckup, odds are they ain't got a plan for said fuckup occurs and your suspended body needs immediate rescue or else. So a bad situation doesn't get better.

An NZ pro Domme and her BF/Pimp, threw a still alive sub off the Huka Falls, because they thought they'd choked him to death. Turns out they didn't but, well, panicky people made bad situations worse
That shit made the national news for weeks. And the primetime documentatary about his death and the NZ BDSM Scene, was nominated for a comedy award by the muggles.

TL;DR. Death is less likely than serious injury. If your rigger doesn't make death seem unlikely, your rigger's not a good rigger.



Fornica -> RE: Double bondage resulting in death (11/20/2011 4:10:17 AM)

Or do anything else to alter your mental state, if you're the one in charge.
Sad :(
quote:

ORIGINAL: HisPet21

Don't drink and tie people up. Bondage 101.




missygwen -> RE: Double bondage resulting in death (11/20/2011 4:55:55 PM)

Once I met with a guy I'd been chatting with online, planning on some bondage fun...(it was dumb, but I at least did let someone know where I'd be)...almost the first thing he did when I showed up was insist I have a couple of drinks.  It IMMEDIATELY turned me off.  Things did not go well from there, but it was at least a lesson in How Not To Do It.  (And a cheap one in the end, no harm done, fortunately.)



SexyThoughts -> RE: Double bondage resulting in death (11/20/2011 10:00:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fornica
Or do anything else to alter your mental state, if you're the one in charge.
Sad :(


And "failures" aren't the only risk.
Two very obvious risks, is the subbie going into subspace and their body slumping into an unsuitable position. Or the Dom being aroused and thinking with their genitals.

Guess what feminine "Fainting" was a Victorian euphemism for.



delilahdelight -> RE: Double bondage resulting in death (11/22/2011 9:28:06 PM)



My first thought on reading the article was this- how could a responsible Dominant let such a thing happen?? On the heels of that thought, I corrected myself; that man was neither a Dominant nor conducting himself responsibly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCord

It was no accident...it was a crime and should be treated as such. With the education he had to be in such a profession, there is no excuse for what happened....he should have known better. He put people at risk to get his jollies. No different than getting in a car and driving drunk then killing someone. If the drinking or drug use alleged contributed....so much more horrible the crime.



Exactly the above.



delphius1 -> RE: Double bondage resulting in death (1/8/2012 1:33:08 AM)

Pure speculation of course, but if the scenario went something like: he thinks its a good idea to take a couple of girls to a deserted car park, tie them up and then throw a rope over a high bar and tie it round their necks so they can't move very far as he whips or flogs them. The sort of scenario we've all seen in BDSM videos and magazines. The difference being there's usually a crew of people behind the camera to help should anything go wrong.

The tying part is ok, but the noosing together is the bad bit as anyone can pass out during a scene, especially someone who hasn't played at that intensity before. Noosing two people together is a no-no unless you can instantly disconnect the two of them. Unless of course you are ok with the consequences of your actions should anything go wrong. Add the drink and the drugs and the risk of collapse increases, something he should have taken into consideration.

Always be prepared for the unexpected. I just wonder how long it took him to find his knife and how long after that it took him to cut the rope. When one quick-release shackle in the rope would have saved a life. Not as aesthetically pleasing I know and takes a couple of minutes to rig, but saves a life and the risk of a murder charge should anything go wrong.

If nothing else, learn from other people's mistakes.



CyrusKell -> RE: Double bondage resulting in death (1/9/2012 9:38:07 PM)

Japanese sado-masochist technique known as "shibari".
This made me go "o_0" as I've always considered shibari as artistic bondage, not exclusively sado masochistic

As for the rest of it, yeah, great idea, get drunk and drugged up and start playing with rope



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